Not really. We remember exactly why things happened and the fact people are asking why Europe did not go in...shows that some havent. THAT is why countries donated weapons etc instead
Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #13
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I believe trump has directly said that the mineral deal puts US workers etc on the ground and that in itself deters Russia.
Its hard to say if the deal is fair given the US was involved in the deal which made ukraine give up its nukes for security promises. And then with the war gave all these weapons loans and money to Ukraine only to be told The US basically wants its money back in the form of this deal.
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From an interview with general Kellogg, from the negotiating team and is spent much time in Ukraine over the past month. Zelensky was repeatedly warned funding an intelligence were at risk should he not seek to negotiate a peace deal.
www.theguardian.com
US intelligence pause needed to make Ukrainians realise we are serious, Kellogg says
US Ukraine envoy Kellogg was also further challenged about the impact of the US decision to stop sharing intelligence with Ukraine, acknowledging the impact, but saying “it was one of the reasons why it was done” for the Ukrainian government to realise how serious the US administration was about ending the war.
The best way I can describe it is sort of like hitting a mule with a two by four across the nose. You get their attention.
…
I made it very clear when I was in Kyiv, the potential for this [and] it was almost like, ‘Well, OK, we hear you.’ Well, no, we’re serious. We’re deeply serious about this.
We let them know that this President is very serious about it and we’re going to end this war. And this is one way to make sure you understand we’re serious about it.
So is it hard? Of course it is, but … it is not like they didn’t know this was coming. They got fair warning that was coming. I told them, and they were told last week as well.
…
They have an ability with the assets they’ve got to continue to prosecute the fight, to do it, but… let’s be obviously, let’s be clear about it. …
If you take away support like that, of course it, it’s important, we know that. But that’s one of the reasons why it was done.
And I think as a result of that, they realise we’re serious and they need to get serious about it as well. …
That 50 minutes in the Oval Office was entirely preventable.
President Trump was very magnanimous in that for the first 30 minutes, I’d ask you to go back and look at the tape, not once, but two or three times, and everything he did. And then it went … south real quick.
Zelenskyy joins EU leaders at defence summit as Russia accuses France of wanting Ukraine war to continue – Europe live
Leaders gather to discuss €800bn plan to boost military capacity as Kremlin says Macron’s comments were ‘extremely confrontational’
US intelligence pause needed to make Ukrainians realise we are serious, Kellogg says
US Ukraine envoy Kellogg was also further challenged about the impact of the US decision to stop sharing intelligence with Ukraine, acknowledging the impact, but saying “it was one of the reasons why it was done” for the Ukrainian government to realise how serious the US administration was about ending the war.
The best way I can describe it is sort of like hitting a mule with a two by four across the nose. You get their attention.
…
I made it very clear when I was in Kyiv, the potential for this [and] it was almost like, ‘Well, OK, we hear you.’ Well, no, we’re serious. We’re deeply serious about this.
We let them know that this President is very serious about it and we’re going to end this war. And this is one way to make sure you understand we’re serious about it.
So is it hard? Of course it is, but … it is not like they didn’t know this was coming. They got fair warning that was coming. I told them, and they were told last week as well.
…
They have an ability with the assets they’ve got to continue to prosecute the fight, to do it, but… let’s be obviously, let’s be clear about it. …
If you take away support like that, of course it, it’s important, we know that. But that’s one of the reasons why it was done.
And I think as a result of that, they realise we’re serious and they need to get serious about it as well. …
That 50 minutes in the Oval Office was entirely preventable.
President Trump was very magnanimous in that for the first 30 minutes, I’d ask you to go back and look at the tape, not once, but two or three times, and everything he did. And then it went … south real quick.
This is a broad order that covers all immigrants who were granted blanket parole status when the entered the U.S. It doesn't target Ukrainians as the headline of this article suggests. The Biden administration paroled millions of people from around the world and gave them temporary status in the U.S., no questions asked, no vetting, etc. The new administration has ended this temporary program. Immigrants under the temporary status who could now be deported (millions of them) will have there day in court, and the Ukrainians, many of them, will likely go to court and apply for refugee status. So the title of the article is misleading, suggesting that somehow Ukrainians who entered the country with temporary status are being targeted. As usual, MSM looking for clickbait, or trying to stir things up while misleading the American peopl with their headines.No low is too low.
imo
Yet Trump is saying they will get Greenland one way or another!
"
US President Donald Trump is reportedly planning to revoke the legal status of more than 240,000 Ukrainians who fled from the war with Russia, sources have claimed.
This dramatic policy shift could put these refugees on a fast-track to deportation, a senior Trump official and three sources familiar with the matter said.
The move, expected as soon as April, would mark a stark reversal of the welcome Ukrainians received under President Joe Biden's administration.
"The planned rollback of protections for Ukrainians was already underway before Trump publicly feuded with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in the Oval Office last week."
www.gbnews.com
US President Donald Trump is reportedly planning to revoke the legal status of more than 240,000 Ukrainians who fled from the war with Russia, sources have claimed.
This dramatic policy shift could put these refugees on a fast-track to deportation, a senior Trump official and three sources familiar with the matter said.
The move, expected as soon as April, would mark a stark reversal of the welcome Ukrainians received under President Joe Biden's administration.
"The planned rollback of protections for Ukrainians was already underway before Trump publicly feuded with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in the Oval Office last week."
Donald Trump planning to 'deport' 240,000 Ukrainians in fresh Zelensky betrayal
Trump's drastic move is expected 'as soon as April'
www.gbnews.com
I am actually confused why it was asked up thread why we had not gone in in the beginning ;(
And hate for Biden. So he has to reverse everything Biden did for his own ego. Regardless of the effects on people. JMO MOO
Ukrainians first though. The irony is, that article says illegal immigrants can't be deported for two years! JMO
Tbh that is his opinion. He is part of Trumps team so is biased. Millions would disagreeFrom an interview with general Kellogg, from the negotiating team and is spent much time in Ukraine over the past month. Zelensky was repeatedly warned funding an intelligence were at risk should he not seek to negotiate a peace deal.
Zelenskyy joins EU leaders at defence summit as Russia accuses France of wanting Ukraine war to continue – Europe live
Leaders gather to discuss €800bn plan to boost military capacity as Kremlin says Macron’s comments were ‘extremely confrontational’
US intelligence pause needed to make Ukrainians realise we are serious, Kellogg says
US Ukraine envoy Kellogg was also further challenged about the impact of the US decision to stop sharing intelligence with Ukraine, acknowledging the impact, but saying “it was one of the reasons why it was done” for the Ukrainian government to realise how serious the US administration was about ending the war.
The best way I can describe it is sort of like hitting a mule with a two by four across the nose. You get their attention.
…
I made it very clear when I was in Kyiv, the potential for this [and] it was almost like, ‘Well, OK, we hear you.’ Well, no, we’re serious. We’re deeply serious about this.
We let them know that this President is very serious about it and we’re going to end this war. And this is one way to make sure you understand we’re serious about it.
So is it hard? Of course it is, but … it is not like they didn’t know this was coming. They got fair warning that was coming. I told them, and they were told last week as well.
…
They have an ability with the assets they’ve got to continue to prosecute the fight, to do it, but… let’s be obviously, let’s be clear about it. …
If you take away support like that, of course it, it’s important, we know that. But that’s one of the reasons why it was done.
And I think as a result of that, they realise we’re serious and they need to get serious about it as well. …
That 50 minutes in the Oval Office was entirely preventable.
President Trump was very magnanimous in that for the first 30 minutes, I’d ask you to go back and look at the tape, not once, but two or three times, and everything he did. And then it went … south real quick.
The other thing tbh its gone beyond giving Ukraine a supposed wake up call. The fall out between leaders is going to be hard to repair. I do wonder though Trump was very pro Brexit but his behaviour had made Europe stronger than it has been in years.
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I’m way behind but it caught my eye that somewhere someone above said something about warhawks.
If that was in reference to Zelenskyy, which IIRC it was, I have to disagree because Zelenskyy did not start this war. The warhawk is Putin. This was a surprise attack on Ukraine which was just going about its business when Russia crossed into its border and began killing Ukrainians on the street, in their homes and schools.
After Putin had already swiped the Crimea out from under Ukraine’s feet.
IMO what’s happening now seems to be the equivalent of if, in the Korean War, the U.S. had opted to side with North Korea rather than the South. Same with Vietnam. Or for Afghanistan rather than against. Or clapped Castro on the back and said “good job” during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
War is never a happy situation, for either side, since it leads to death and destruction. But we as Americans have always taken the side of freedom.
I mean, George Washington, properly speaking, was a warhawk, right, because we started the Revolutionary War. British and would-be Americans died. Ben Franklin’s son was a Loyalist and the governor of New Jersey, and Ben allowed his son to be imprisoned because he sided with the king.
But it was in the name of being free from a Mother Country.
Ukraine already had their independence from Russia. Putin was displeased. Ergo, war. Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian populace wanted to maintain their independence and until now, America has always fought for freedom from Communism, dictatorship and terrorism.
How did we end up here?
IMO
If that was in reference to Zelenskyy, which IIRC it was, I have to disagree because Zelenskyy did not start this war. The warhawk is Putin. This was a surprise attack on Ukraine which was just going about its business when Russia crossed into its border and began killing Ukrainians on the street, in their homes and schools.
After Putin had already swiped the Crimea out from under Ukraine’s feet.
IMO what’s happening now seems to be the equivalent of if, in the Korean War, the U.S. had opted to side with North Korea rather than the South. Same with Vietnam. Or for Afghanistan rather than against. Or clapped Castro on the back and said “good job” during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
War is never a happy situation, for either side, since it leads to death and destruction. But we as Americans have always taken the side of freedom.
I mean, George Washington, properly speaking, was a warhawk, right, because we started the Revolutionary War. British and would-be Americans died. Ben Franklin’s son was a Loyalist and the governor of New Jersey, and Ben allowed his son to be imprisoned because he sided with the king.
But it was in the name of being free from a Mother Country.
Ukraine already had their independence from Russia. Putin was displeased. Ergo, war. Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian populace wanted to maintain their independence and until now, America has always fought for freedom from Communism, dictatorship and terrorism.
How did we end up here?
IMO
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@Zapoleon , I’m not sure “it’s clearly better for Ukraine to try and hold out for the best possible peace deal..”
As much as we would all like for Ukraine to get Crimea and Donbas back, who and how do you think that can possibly be achieved?
That is the crux of the current disagreement with the US (and the EU, really - though both sides have been careful with PR). Everybody agrees how wrong and evil Russia and Putin are. No one is disputing the crimes they have committed. This was and is a horror. It’s precisely what all those leaders said it was back in 2022 - when they did nothing but talk and virtue signal. It’s easy to “strongly condemn”. It’s easy to say: “they will be held accountable”.
But the US is not going to start a war with Russia in order to recover Crimea and Donbas for Ukraine. And although the UK and France and EU talks big, neither are they.
Not only are UK, France, EU and NATO forces too weak, but nobody in UK, France, EU, NATO, or US has the appetite for WW III or a long drawn out conflict (called a peace keeping effort) like the US was involved in in Korea and Vietnam and Afghanistan. It’s completely unrealistic. Everybody is vilifying the US for not doing something they themselves aren’t willing to do.
It’s fine for Zelensky to demand a genuine guaranteed security or a genuine guaranteed security backstop all he wants. The fact is that no such thing presently even exists.
If it ever existed it was ten, and then three years ago when Biden, the US, the UK, France, the EU, and many other nations refused to act.
Jmo
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On the contrary, the President is trying to end a war that has been going on for four years and he was elected by a mandate of the people to stop funding the war between Ukraine and Russia. He is also not "threatening" Canada, Mexico and China, he is imposing tariffs on these trade partners that will level the playing field and address their part in the influx of deadly drugs that are killing Americans at high numbers. The American people voted for a President and administration that would prevent WWIII and that's exactly what they are doing by trying to negotiate an end to the war between Ukraine and Russia. I don't think anyone here feels the need to defend him, he is merely carrying out the mandate he was given by the electorate. With regard to your accusations of corruption in the current administration, I have no idea what you are talking about. The only corruption I see is the past administration where Biden had to pardon his whole family pretty much for the corruption that has been going on for years going back to when he was a senator in the U.S. Congress.
This is the translated transcript of the French Senator (Claude Malhuret)'s speech. The link is behind a paywall so have added the archive link as well. Some quotes below
"Europe is at a critical turning point in its history. The American shield is crumbling, Ukraine risks being abandoned, Russia strengthened.
Washington has become the court of Nero, a fiery emperor, submissive courtiers and a ketamine-fuelled jester in charge of purging the civil service.
This is a tragedy for the free world, but it is first and foremost a tragedy for the United States. Trump’s message is that there is no point in being his ally since he will not defend you, he will impose more customs duties on you than on his enemies and will threaten to seize your territories while supporting the dictatorships that invade you."
"Never in history has a president of the United States capitulated to the enemy. Never has anyone supported an aggressor against an ally. Never has anyone trampled on the American Constitution, issued so many illegal decrees, dismissed judges who could have prevented him from doing so, dismissed the military general staff in one fell swoop, weakened all checks and balances, and taken control of social media."
"This is not an illiberal drift, it is the beginning of the confiscation of democracy. Let us remember that it took only one month, three weeks and two days to bring down the Weimar Republic and its constitution."
"I have faith in the strength of American democracy, and the country is already protesting. But in one month, Trump has done more harm to America than in four years of his last presidency. We were at war with a dictator, now we are fighting a dictator backed by a traitor."
"
Eight days ago, at the very moment that Trump was rubbing Macron’s back in the White House, the United States voted at the UN with Russia and North Korea against the Europeans demanding the withdrawal of Russian troops.
Two days later, in the Oval Office, the military service shirker was giving war hero Zelensky lessons in morality and strategy before dismissing him like a groom, ordering him to submit or resign.
Tonight, he took another step into infamy by stopping the delivery of weapons that had been promised. What to do in the face of this betrayal? The answer is simple: face it."
"What Putin wants is the end of the order put in place by the United States and its allies 80 years ago, with its first principle being the prohibition of acquiring territory by force.
This idea is at the very source of the UN, where today Americans vote in favor of the aggressor and against the attacked, because the Trumpian vision coincides with that of Putin: a return to spheres of influence, the great powers dictating the fate of small countries."
"So we are alone. But the talk that Putin cannot be resisted is false. Contrary to the Kremlin’s propaganda, Russia is in bad shape. In three years, the so-called second largest army in the world has managed to grab only crumbs from a country three times less populated.
Interest rates at 25%, the collapse of foreign exchange and gold reserves and the demographic collapse show that it is on the brink of the abyss. The American helping hand to Putin is the biggest strategic mistake ever made in a war."
"Finally, and this is the most urgent, because it is what will take the most time, we must build the neglected European defence, to the benefit of the American umbrella since 1945 and scuttled since the fall of the Berlin Wall.
It is a Herculean task, but it is on its success or failure that the leaders of today’s democratic Europe will be judged in the history books.
Friedrich Merz has just declared that Europe needs its own military alliance. This is to recognise that France has been right for decades in arguing for strategic autonomy."
"We must convince public opinion in the face of war weariness and fear, and especially in the face of Putin’s cronies, the extreme right and the extreme left."
"They say they want peace. What neither they nor Trump say is that their peace is capitulation, the peace of defeat, the replacement of de Gaulle Zelensky by a Ukrainian Pétain at Putin’s beck and call."
"The Trumpists are no longer in their majesty. They control the executive, the parliament, the Supreme Court and social networks.
But in American history, the freedom fighters have always prevailed. They are beginning to raise their heads.
The fate of Ukraine is being played out in the trenches, but it also depends on those in the United States who want to defend democracy"
"Our parents defeated fascism and communism at great cost.
The task of our generation is to defeat the totalitarianisms of the 21st century.
Long live free Ukraine, long live democratic Europe."
The full text/speech is in the link. It almost made me cry JMO
www.theneweuropean.co.uk
"Europe is at a critical turning point in its history. The American shield is crumbling, Ukraine risks being abandoned, Russia strengthened.
Washington has become the court of Nero, a fiery emperor, submissive courtiers and a ketamine-fuelled jester in charge of purging the civil service.
This is a tragedy for the free world, but it is first and foremost a tragedy for the United States. Trump’s message is that there is no point in being his ally since he will not defend you, he will impose more customs duties on you than on his enemies and will threaten to seize your territories while supporting the dictatorships that invade you."
"Never in history has a president of the United States capitulated to the enemy. Never has anyone supported an aggressor against an ally. Never has anyone trampled on the American Constitution, issued so many illegal decrees, dismissed judges who could have prevented him from doing so, dismissed the military general staff in one fell swoop, weakened all checks and balances, and taken control of social media."
"This is not an illiberal drift, it is the beginning of the confiscation of democracy. Let us remember that it took only one month, three weeks and two days to bring down the Weimar Republic and its constitution."
"I have faith in the strength of American democracy, and the country is already protesting. But in one month, Trump has done more harm to America than in four years of his last presidency. We were at war with a dictator, now we are fighting a dictator backed by a traitor."
"
Eight days ago, at the very moment that Trump was rubbing Macron’s back in the White House, the United States voted at the UN with Russia and North Korea against the Europeans demanding the withdrawal of Russian troops.
Two days later, in the Oval Office, the military service shirker was giving war hero Zelensky lessons in morality and strategy before dismissing him like a groom, ordering him to submit or resign.
Tonight, he took another step into infamy by stopping the delivery of weapons that had been promised. What to do in the face of this betrayal? The answer is simple: face it."
"What Putin wants is the end of the order put in place by the United States and its allies 80 years ago, with its first principle being the prohibition of acquiring territory by force.
This idea is at the very source of the UN, where today Americans vote in favor of the aggressor and against the attacked, because the Trumpian vision coincides with that of Putin: a return to spheres of influence, the great powers dictating the fate of small countries."
"So we are alone. But the talk that Putin cannot be resisted is false. Contrary to the Kremlin’s propaganda, Russia is in bad shape. In three years, the so-called second largest army in the world has managed to grab only crumbs from a country three times less populated.
Interest rates at 25%, the collapse of foreign exchange and gold reserves and the demographic collapse show that it is on the brink of the abyss. The American helping hand to Putin is the biggest strategic mistake ever made in a war."
"Finally, and this is the most urgent, because it is what will take the most time, we must build the neglected European defence, to the benefit of the American umbrella since 1945 and scuttled since the fall of the Berlin Wall.
It is a Herculean task, but it is on its success or failure that the leaders of today’s democratic Europe will be judged in the history books.
Friedrich Merz has just declared that Europe needs its own military alliance. This is to recognise that France has been right for decades in arguing for strategic autonomy."
"We must convince public opinion in the face of war weariness and fear, and especially in the face of Putin’s cronies, the extreme right and the extreme left."
"They say they want peace. What neither they nor Trump say is that their peace is capitulation, the peace of defeat, the replacement of de Gaulle Zelensky by a Ukrainian Pétain at Putin’s beck and call."
"The Trumpists are no longer in their majesty. They control the executive, the parliament, the Supreme Court and social networks.
But in American history, the freedom fighters have always prevailed. They are beginning to raise their heads.
The fate of Ukraine is being played out in the trenches, but it also depends on those in the United States who want to defend democracy"
"Our parents defeated fascism and communism at great cost.
The task of our generation is to defeat the totalitarianisms of the 21st century.
Long live free Ukraine, long live democratic Europe."
The full text/speech is in the link. It almost made me cry JMO
Perfectly expressed… a manifesto for the future of Europe in the face of Trump and Putin
A French senator has given a powerful speech setting out how the continent must deal with the twin threats from America and Russia
www.theneweuropean.co.uk
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I think this is spot on.
I think people on the ground even for mining purposes from any NATO countries would keep Russia in check. I think that deal was a way to ensure some level of safety for Ukraine. Russia attacking areas where mining was going on with people from NATO countries would certainly raise the level with which NATO countries could respond.
IF Zelensky knew THAT (because I'm sure things were talked about in private many many times before the public meeting) and then he went on TV still pushing things publicly, I can see why Trump reacted the way he did.
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Last Friday Zelensky decided to debate the economic deal, on national TV. The entire reason he traveled to the US was to sign the deal. He was not invited here to negotiate a peace agreement. He announced in the media that he was signing the deal, prior to his trip. We set up a press conference we welcome him. He thanked the president for the invitation and immediately started in with an 8 plan and photos insisting the US had to provide military support. He chose to use the press conference to actively debate president Trump security in military support. BIG MISTAKE!!!!
Zelensky reporting at the conference in Belgium today. He will try to set up a meeting with the Trump negotiation team. He has made no firm commitment, he's buying time, and determined to drag the European nations into war with Russia.
Zelensky and his team have been meeting with US negotiators in Ukraine for the last 4 weeks. The Secretary of State, General Kellogg and many others have been in Ukraine speaking with Zelensky. He was repeatedly warned how the US would respond should he choose not to seek a peace agreement. (Article posted up thread) He met and spoke with many US Congressional Representatives the morning of the meeting. He was repeatedly encouraged not to confront the president for security agreement on national TV.
Responding to 1,2,3, he's been repeatedly warned. He was told what the repercussions would be, specifically. Zelensky made the choice. The negotiation team warned him for weeks and Congress warned him the morning of the meeting.
4. There is currently no date or location scheduled to discuss the mineral agreement and absolutely no date to discuss a peace agreement. The ball is in Zelenskys court. The US is willing ready and able to meet with him. Zelenskys been to busy, having meaningful conversations and all over Europe trying to drum up weapons and money.
5. In order to negotiate with Russia, the US must be on somewhat cordial terms. We are willing, as an offering, to allow the opening of the Russian embassy. It is the US offering to establish a commitment,ent to a peace agreement with Ukraine.
Should Russia renege on their commitment to at least sit down and talk about a peace agreement, we can certainly close the embassy, in the bat of an eye, and expel them from the country. Trump has no problem showing force. We saw that last Friday.
Moo
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"US defence secretary Pete Hegseth said on Wednesday that the United States is "prepared" to go to war with China, following warnings from Beijing over rising trade tensions."
'We're prepared': US on China's 'ready for any type of war' warning as Donald Trump tariff row escalates - Times of India
US News: US Defence Secretary Pete Hegseth stated that the US is prepared for conflict with China amid escalating trade tensions. Tensions rose after Presidenttimesofindia.indiatimes.com
Secretary Hegseth was responding to the statement by China's representative that stated that China was prepared to go to war with tariffs or any other issue. (paraphrased) Hegseth was responding in kind. The Trump administration isn't planning to go to war with China or anyone else. All taken out of context.
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Yes he has been speaking publicly peace. His actions do not match what he is speaking. He has not contacted the United States about further discussion. If he had he would be saying so. He would be saying yes I have a meeting set up with the US. Here's the date. I've spoken with so and so, here's what we talked about.
Nope, he says he wants peace. His actions show he wants to continue the war. If you wanted peace, he would be sitting at a negotiation table right now with the US and not in Belgium begging for money and weapons.
Moo
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