Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #5

[otto]

Is this a propaganda war between what Russians believe, what Ukraines are living, and what the world is watching? ... at least three perspectives

 

[Charlot123]

Archduke Ferdinand was in an open carriage and I recall had ignored warnings.

Putin is nothing but super-cautious. If he could, I think he'd have undetectable hologram of himself rather than ever appear in public again.

I think that's why he doesn't seem to have a visible heir-apparent. Can't trust anyone not to try to off you.

I think all such guys take precautions- body doubles, someone testing their food, changing cars, whatnot. Maybe Putin does not have a heir apparent because he wants to start a dynasty?

Archduke Ferdinand was a progressive person and Gavrilo Princip, a mindless Slavic nationalist whose idiotic act served as causus belli for WWI, and, consequently, WWII. These two wars incredibly weakened Europe, so we should not even use Princip as an example, nor even mention his name.

 

[sunshineray]

"In an apparent effort to ease the audience's concerns, Tsivilyov likened the Kremlin's approach to the Ukraine invasion to the Soviet Union's bloody 1979-1989 war in Afghanistan that helped set the stage for the Soviet collapse.

"It was officially stated that we had declared war, and the first who entered Afghanistan didn't know where they were going," Tsivilyov said. "They found out when they already entered.”"

This is a very bad example. The Afghani invasion was decided on by six, or seven, Soviet ruling gerontes, and expected to be a very brief war. It lasted for ten years, and eventually, the Soviet Union evacuated the troops, leaving Afghanistan to a tribal war that, amidst many events, essentially continues until now. Afghanistan ended so shamefully for the USSR that it makes no sense to even remember those times.

And likening it to the present situation in front of extremely worried and angry soldier's families!? That guy is a moron.

 

[sunshineray]

I think all such guys take precautions- body doubles, someone testing their food, changing cars, whatnot. Maybe Putin does not have a heir apparent because he wants to start a dynasty?

Archduke Ferdinand was a progressive person and Gavrilo Princip, a mindless Slavic nationalist whose idiotic act served as causus belli for WWI, and, consequently, WWII. These two wars incredibly weakened Europe, so we should not even use Princip as an example, nor even mention his name.

His name was mentioned to show it doesn't take wealth or power to assassinate the wealthy and powerful...just a reason will do.

 

[sunshineray]

Russia placed landmines along evacuation corridors, and broke ceasefire agreements for humanitarian evacuations.

Putin has opened corridors from Ukraine to Russia. It does not sound like a friendly agreement.

Where did you read that Russia had placed landmines!?

 

[sunshineray]

Ukraine’s air defense forces shoot down Russian aircraft over Kyiv.

March 7, 2022 10:49 pm by The Kyiv Independent news desk

Soon after that, at 9:10 p.m., another Russian plane was destroyed in an air battle on the city’s outskirts, according to Commander of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Valerіy Zaluzhny.

Ukraine’s air defense forces shoot down Russian aircraft over Kyiv.


Ukraine’s Air Force shoots down another Russian plane near Kyiv
07.03.2022 22:23

"At 21:10, the second enemy plane was shot down in an air battle near the city [Kyiv]," Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Valeriy Zaluzhny posted on Facebook.

Zaluzhny also reminded that the Air Force of the Armed Forces of Ukraine had shot down a plane of the Russian Air Force over Kyiv at 20:30

Ukraine’s Air Force shoots down another Russian plane near Kyiv

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Unbelievable

How Russians Reacted When We Showed Them Pictures From Ukraine

Is this a propaganda war between what Russians believe, what Ukraines are living, and what the world is watching? ... at least three perspectives

Thanks, Pommy, that was the video i mentioned yesterday but I couldn’t find it again. They are not being shown the truth.

And then there are the social media virals doing the rounds causing more misinformation. Here are a few of them debunked - all miscaptioned images:

Ukraine invasion: False claims the war is a hoax go viral

 

[SouthAussie]

Where did you read that Russia had placed landmines!?

The land mines are/were apparently on the route out of Mariupol. Although it doesn't say who placed the land mines there.

Sometimes I think that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. An evacuation route being proposed, while perhaps not knowing at the time that the route had already been mined.



A top International Red Cross official told the BBC on Monday that a proposed humanitarian zone in Mariupol, Ukraine, was lined with land mines, the latest sign of the struggle to allow women and children to flee Russia’s war on the country.

“That is why it is so important that the two parties have a precise agreement for us then to be able to facilitate it on the ground”

Stillhart said some Red Cross staff had tried to take the proposed route out of Mariupol before realizing that it was mined.

Russian and Ukrainian officials have tried for days to agree to limited ceasefires that would allow women and children to evacuate to safer areas and give international aid workers safe passage to those needing care.
Land mines littered a proposed route for Ukrainians to flee, Red Cross official says

 

[Bit of hope]

In following the FlightRadar24 site to get a "real-time" look at a little bit of the international flying military activity and support in Europe and, indeed, the world, there is one country conspicuous by it's absence of air military presence.

Germany

Perhaps their support is more land-based or otherwise, but in my recent 10 days or so, I can't remember one German military or support flight: No helicopters, no air force, no transport.

The workhorses, that are visible on FR24 are clearly the US and the UK. But every other nation in the area has has some visible support.

Any ideas on this one, my European pals?

I didn't see the Dutch movements either on the flightradar, but they delivered and were doing their (NATO) share already before the actual invasion. Do you know their call sign, because I don't. Maybe that's why I couldn't find it? IIRR their's a lot about contributions from European countries posted, including Germany, in thread #1 and #2.

 

[Bit of hope]

I'm behind but had to post this...Ukrainians are shelling themselves?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...0806dde1f8a005#block-622683d18f0806dde1f8a005
Russia-Ukraine war: Zelenskiy vows to punish attack on civilians in Irpin; Russia bombards Mykolaiv – live | World news | The Guardian
5h ago 22:25

Interim summary

Here’s where things stand:

• Linda Thomas-Greenfield, the US ambassador to the United Nations, just slammed Russia and accused Vladimir Putin of having a plan “to brutalize Ukraine”, as the UN tries to negotiate evacuation corridors.
  
• But Russia’s ambassador to the United Nations, Vasily Nebenzya, was in the UN Security Council chamber in New York, with a different message, claiming Ukrainians are shelling themselves.
• The humanitarian crisis in Ukraine is deepening as Russian forces intensify their shelling and food, water, heat and medicine grow increasingly scarce, with Ukraine accusing Moscow of ‘medieval’ tactics.
• A third round of conflict talks between Ukraine and Russia ended with “small positive developments” relating to potential humanitarian corridors, according to reports, but there were no details and the veracity of anything offered by Russia is in doubt.

Yehhh right. Also the responses on this are interesting....flat out lies...How is it possible somebody can say this without blinking?

 

[Bit of hope]

This is such a "feel good" story written about a family from my hometown and I wanted to share. Even with all the hell this woman and her son went through, they continue to pray for Russia along with their prayers for Ukraine. One super family!

Ukrainian mother and brother of Chillicothe teacher escape to Ohio after bombings

I get an error. 403 forbidden. Worked my way around it.

 

[Bit of hope]

Russia’s UN Ambassador Vassily Nebenzia has said his country will carry out a cease-fire on Tuesday morning at 10 am Moscow time and open humanitarian corridors to evacuate citizens from Kyiv, Chernigov, Sumy and Mariupol.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has rejected earlier proposals to evacuate Ukrainian citizens into what he has described as “occupied territory” in Russia and Belarus.

“This proposal doesn’t have any demands about the citizens being sent necessarily to Russia, into Russian territory,” he said at the end of a UN Security Council meeting.

“There’s also evacuation offered towards Ukrainian cities to the west of Kyiv, and ultimately it will be the choice of the people themselves where they want to be evacuated to,” Nebenzia said.

Russia to let Ukrainians evacuate in ‘direction of their choice’

Wait, wait....is this the same guy claiming Ukraine is shelling themselves?

 

[Vern]

I wonder whether it is NATO that has a lot of servicemen stationed at NATO countries bordering Ukraine. Based on USA numbers that we have, could it be NATO forces rather than USA servicemen?

"The US has placed 8,500 troops on heightened alert to deploy to Europe as Nato reinforced its eastern borders with warships and fighter jets
...

In recent months Russia has massed more than 106,000 troops along Ukraine’s border and it is planning extensive military exercises in neighbouring Belarus and in the Mediterranean.
...

The Kremlin has also dispatched six amphibious landing ships to the Mediterranean as part of the exercises, which will include 140 ships and more than 10,000 Russian troops.
​

January 24, 2022
US puts 8,500 troops on heightened alert amid fears over Ukraine

"President Joe Biden has repeatedly insisted U.S. troops will not fight in Ukraine, but he has redoubled defenses in surrounding countries by moving roughly 14,000 troops eastward in Europe during the past three weeks.
​

Feb 25, 2022
NATO Activates Troops As Russia Intensifies Ukraine Attack

The 100K is US troops.

NATO national partners are also upping their contribution of NATO RF troops (Response Force), including Canada (not quickly enough IMO). We are watching genocide happen ... in a non-NATO country. I don't think it's the "moral" thing to do. If Russia takes Ukraine, they still won't be satisfied. That'll just leave the next countries to the west in the same position Ukraine now finds itself and at the same risk due to Russia wanting "neutrals or Russian" on their western flank borders. WW3 hasn't already begun?? This map displayed by Lukashenko clearly shows red arrow advancement plan for Moldova (bottom center of the map, left hand side), yet another sovereign nation. Ooops.
(20) max seddon on Twitter: "Lukashenko, addressing his security council, points to a map of Ukraine that shows what look like planned troop movements, infrastructure targets, and the country divided into four parts https://t.co/O81hpIvZM3" / Twitter

As a member of the Profession of Arms (a soldier) for the past 34 years, Russia's use of conscript and untrained troops here is unfathomable. Despite their protestations otherwise, all of us soldiers who served when the Iron Curtain still stood were all putting out our AFV (Armoured Fighting Vehicle) skills back to work identifying Soviet era kit and vehicles in the first videos released, Russian and Chechyan troops using unencrypted radios etc. Total lack of maintaining distancing between their vehicles and convoys etc. These are not pros. Their Generals may be pros, but the boots on the ground thus far are not. Lack of comms, lack of skills, lack of logistical support does not bode well for civilians/non-combatants or civilian infrastructure.

I suspect this upcoming week will bear witness to even more horrific war crimes and targeting of of non-military, therefore illegal, areas and civilians. It's going to be long and bloody. Troops with no training also have no restraint in what they do. Lack of proper comms lends to chaos when no one understands what their own governments "plan" is. The innocent pay the price.

Here's an excellent site for updates/tracking of daily events:
Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, March 7 | Institute for the Study of War (understandingwar.org)

Twitter feed with Daily Brief visuals on advancements
(19) Nathan Ruser on Twitter: "Putin's War - The Ukraine Daily Briefing Map for March 7th. The second picture shows only Russian advances from the last 24 hours. Russian gains on the Zaporizhzhia axis, with very slight gains on both sides of Kyiv and near Nova Odessa. Ukrainian gains near Kharkiv. https://t.co/FV2cQ0S7vw" / Twitter

Map Tracker - (Raid Siren activations, Ordinance, Explosions and protests related to Ukraine)
Tracker The Tracking Trackey (protopage.com)

Meanwhile, I sit here thinking about the hung up convoy outside of Kyiv with it's zero spacing and easy targeting with "I'd tap that" going through my head. I suspect that it will be target number one once Ukraine becomes beneficiary of that Polish air power.

 

[Fika]

Wait, wait....is this the same guy claiming Ukraine is shelling themselves?

So much lies. I’m surprised anyone would believe what Russian politicians have to say anymore. Years of propaganda and blame putting on other people. Putin is like this abusive husband/partner that it’s never his fault, you made me do it mindset and if you don’t do how I say you will see.. ah add to that manipulation and straight out lies.
You don’t do deals with people like that.IMO

 

[Vern]

Is this a propaganda war between what Russians believe, what Ukraines are living, and what the world is watching? ... at least three perspectives

This ceased being a propaganda war the instant Russia entered a sovereign nation.

 

[Bit of hope]

Oh my!! These people are sheepels. Pitiful!!

Actually there are also people interviewed who say they know what is going on, they can't speak out because it's dangerous but are for peace or are flat out against the war and against Putin. So definitely not all the Russians are "sheepels".

 

[Bit of hope]

Detained Protesters In Perm, Russia, Speak Out Against The War In Ukraine (rferl.org) - Video

People being held by police in the Russian city of Perm for protesting against the war in Ukraine have been filmed speaking out from detention about why they joined the demonstrations. Almost 100 people were detained in the city on March 6 after protests against the war were held across Russia.

A Detention, A Recording, A Brutal Beating: Another Window Into Russian Police Interrogations (rferl.org)
[...]

One of nearly 5,000 people arrested on March 6 amid protests against Russia’s war in Ukraine, Kaluzhskikh was asked to state her name, home address, and place of study, and to explain how she heard about the demonstrations.

In an audio recording first published by a well-known Russian rights group and circulated on a Telegram channel, Kaluzhskikh, 26, responds by citing the clause in the Russian Constitution that bars people from incriminating themselves.

The sound of what appears to be a person being hit is then heard.

“The next one will be even harder,” a man identified in the transcript as a police officer can be heard saying.

It gets worse.

Over nearly 11 minutes of the recording, the sound of blows is heard repeatedly, interspersed with verbal abuse.

By the standards of Russian police brutality, documented for years by rights groups, the physical and verbal abuse that Kaluzhskikh endured is shocking, but not out of the ordinary.

[...]

In my eyes she and other women/people who have to endure this, just for speaking out where they believe in, are heroes too, because they know the consequences of doing so going to be horrendous.

 

[Vern]

Actually there are also people interviewed who say they know what is going on, they can't speak out because it's dangerous but are for peace or are flat out against the war and against Putin. So definitely not all the Russians are "sheepels".

Putin has enacted a law that is punishable by up to 15 years in prison ... Russian prisons ... for any counter-war commentary, protests etc. Some will still take up the mantle and the risk; most will not. I wouldn't classify them as 'sheeples' either. Just a very different response from the citizens of Ukraine who are all-in in this fight for their very existence.

Saw a pic the other day of a couple of elderly ladies dressed all in blue and bright yellow, the colours of the Ukrainian flag, riding either the bus or subway in Moscow. Silent protest, Awesome. Next Putin will be enacting a law banning anyone from wearing the colours yellow and blue.

 

[Bit of hope]

I'm very impressed and emotional by this. The letter from Aida Cerkez a survivor of the Sarajevo siege to Ukraine, featured on #Weekend She also talks about the lies spread to justify violence.

 

[sds71]

@assamtribuneoff

Union minister
@HardeepSPuri
on Tuesday confirmed that the evacuation process for Indian students stranded in the war-torn Ukrainian city of Sumy has started and they are being been taken in buses to Poltava.