Russian passenger plane crashes in Sinai, Egypt Prime Minister says, 31 OCT 2015

[bluesneakers]

A shootdown?

hortly after the crash, Islamic State (IS) claimed responsibility for the incident. Experts[who?] said Sinai Province does not have surface-to-air missiles capable of hitting an aircraft at high altitude, even though they could not exclude the possibility of a bomb on board the flight

RSBM for focus.

I've been going back and forth looking at pictures from this crash to pictures of Lockerbie and there are so many similarities. However one minute I think "Oh yeah, definitely a bomb" and then the next minute I see something different. The main difference I've seen is in the ground surrounding the crash site. At the Lockerbie site it looks like a bomb went off at the scene. But... maybe it's just the hard-packed, parched sand of the desert. I'm afraid to look at more bombed planes for comparison though because (and beware) if you go looking for images of Lockerbie you will see bodies.

 

[bluesneakers]

Is it possible that this plane was taken down by ISIS because of Russia's actions in Syria? Would Russia downplay this possibility so that it appears they still have the upper hand? The same day of the crash is very early to make claims of what did and didn't cause this crash. Why would Lufthansa and Air France stop flying this route after the incident?

If the first part of the BBM is true (and it could be) I would say the second part is almost guaranteed.

 

[CARIIS]

Why would Lufthansa and Air France stop flying this route after the incident?

​

I think we have one word here ! Lawsuit! I think all the carriers will CTA for a week or so!

Once I learned about the tail strike , in conjunction with the accident sequence starting 6 miles above the earth, I doubt , now, it was shootdown! Just imo

Their notions that it takes a lot of time to determine if break up is mid air or at impact , is a stall tactic. It is pretty easy to determine pretty quickly (its the "why" that takes months or years!) A 12 mile debris field pretty clearly indicates an in air beginning of a breakup sequence! When they get on scene the first thing they do is look for 4 points! tail, tip of nose, and right wing tip and left wing tip.

Disintegration at impact :

Compared to seeing a what 4 ton engine sitting by itself

goggle images


At the Lockerbie site it looks like a bomb went off at the scene.

Lockerbie was 747 which has an amazing integrity history. There was a huge intact peice - where the wings join the fuselage - that is where the fuels tanks are , I think the bomb look to the crash site was fuel inferno ! IMO

 

[restarea]

Aerial footage of debris field

https://youtu.be/Enb4soLA2Tw

 

[CARIIS]

Aerial footage of debris field

https://youtu.be/Enb4soLA2Tw

Awesome thank you I tried to find aerial and could not --more intact than I visualized from printed, word - looks like actually the only thing that really fell off was stablizer, and that looks pretty intact so it would seem it broke off pretty close to ground in final part of sequence.

We got three of the four points (nose wing tips) in close proxmity.

It almost looks like it just pancaked in the final seconds !I suppose that could be congruent with vertical decent , nose hits and rest of it stops and falls down.

I suppose the fire is understandable - she went down pretty soon after takedown fuel tanks full.

Reuters intially reported that at 9000 feet first captain proclaimation of trouble. That falls into shoulder to air things 10000 max range.

but if it got to 6 miles above and chain of events started, from that height (Lockerbie/ TWA 800) the debris feidl would be like Lockerbie a trail of debris.

But if the 9000 feet is correct that seems more "congruent" with the video posted a few posts back.

Moreover, media is describing a debris feild of 12 miles - but there is a world of difference between finding the a nose and then tail several miles apart, as oppossed to finding lightwight items , which could have floated etc .

Confusing

What do you all think?

Humm if you think about it - the tail' resting place kinda figures into the notion that the earlier repair was no done well - it was the only thing seperated -- so if the tailstrike repair was not correctly ..............

 

[CARIIS]

doing a presser will do it like we do scanner

first plane of bodies being boarded in Cairo

expect process 1130 departure mosco time done

5 hour flight

4 regions in Russia invoved

Flying family memebers into St Petersburg

tomm work next transfer of remains

tomm will be hard day

we will leave it at that he said not me !!

[video=youtube;tmasJPBZi0A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmasJPBZi0A[/video]

 

[CARIIS]

Google images

 

[Momoffourboys]

Horrific images show wreckage of doomed Russian jet that crashed killing all 224 on board as co-pilot's wife says he had concerns about plane's safety

Sergei Trukhachev spoke to his daughter minutes before taking off and expressed concerns about the jet's safety

His wife Natalya told Russian television he believed the 'technical condition of the aircraft left much to be desired'

Egyptian aircraft engineers said they spent 35 minutes with the aircraft before it took off at 3.50am yesterday

They claimed the aircraft was 'good' when it left, yet it broke up in mid-air only 23 minutes later killing 224 people

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...jet-abort-three-months-ago.html#ixzz3qFfEwJ7Z

These pics are heart breaking. The passengers. The KIDS. Ugh.

 

[CARIIS]

Hi Mom!

compelling video of folks at airport who were there to pick up folks

[video=youtube;vTewiwJLe9Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTewiwJLe9Q[/video]

Resort they were out - very pretty : (Goggle images)

 

[Momoffourboys]

Hi Cariiis! Too many of these threads on planes.

Sharem El Sheikh is a beautiful place, as you can see. It sits on the Red Sea and the Sinai Penninsula. I used to go there as a kid on family vacations. Not a safe place to travl since ISIS has a presence there. Also, the area airport does not have security standards that are up to par. IMO

 

[CARIIS]

An Airbus A321-231 operated by MEA, sustained damage during a tail strike accident upon landing at Cairo International Airport (CAI), Egypt.
The flight, coming from Beirut, Lebanon, was cleared for an ILS approach to runway 05R. Reportedly, as the aircraft was descending through about 200 feet, it 'ballooned up' and the pilot had to apply nose-down pitch to regain the glide path. Descending through 100 feet the pilot again applied nose-up pitch to correct the glide path. The aircraft then suffered a tail strike.

[TD="class: caption"]Airplane damage:[/TD]
[TD="class: desc"] Substantial [/TD]

[TD="class: caption"]Airplane fahttps://www.planelogger.com/Aircraft/View?registration=F-OHMP&DeliveryDate=27.05.97te:[/TD]
[TD="class: desc"]Repaired





[/TD]

Interesting:

China air flight 611 (224 dead)suffered the same fate because of a repair of the the same flavor :

Consequently, after repeated cycles of depressurization and pressurization during flight, the weakened hull gradually started to crack and finally broke open in mid-flight on 25 May 2002, coincidentally 22 years to the day after the faulty repair was made upon the damaged tail.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_611#Aircraft_history



Ah ha.....

They are going to have a harder time BSing the world ! I am an intuitive searcher and for the life of me cant find where I noticed that the planes engines were made by International Aero Engines.

I then looked around and those folks are from Switzerland USA , with German and Japan invovlment. Any country that has invovment in making a jetliner - have a legal right to particpate in the investigation- so NTSB ought to be able to legally be invovned !

These guys make engines for the whole series of A320 models and their engines were on this aircraft !

http://i-a-e.com/

 

[CARIIS]

Most of the bodies recovered from the crash site have been burned

airline's pilot Valery Nemov had more than 12,000 hours of flying experience with 3,860 on the Airbus A321.

The maximum height a surface-to-air missile could strike is thought to be 25,000 feet.

Russia's state transport regulator Rostransnadzor found violations when it last conducted a routine flight safety inspection of Kogalymavia

But after the inspection, which took place in March 2014, the airline addressed the safety concerns.

RIA Novosti news agency said that the pilot's had expressed concerns about one of the aircraft's engines.
A source told the agency: 'This board (crew) had several times requested help from technical services due to an engine not starting up several times this week.

The Israeli Defence Forces confirmed they had intelligence assets in the region at the time of the crash

63 men and 138 women on board.

pilot told him in their last communication that he was having trouble with the plane's radio system.

the Airbus 321 did not make contact as expected with air traffic controllers in Cyprus.

plunging at 5,760 feet per minute a four-hour flight

local journalists claim that local tribesmen near the remote crash site claimed that the aircraft was 'burning' as it fell

God as I am seeing these pics what a mess!

You dont start "playing" around the data recorders in the feild- they are treated in industrial nations as the "gun" used in a murder! These folks are opening it in a desert ! Numbing

This pic is amazing to me. If you look at it - the way it is broken it is exactly where the the bulkhead is. Which , like JAL 123 would blow out as a result of the poor tailstrike repair - exactly like JAL 123

Guys

These folks are moving stuff around the debris field ---that is so not ok,before investigators even get there -- luggage from a crashing jetliners does not fall into nice little patches!

Ntsb would have them all arrested and charged ! You cnat touch or move one thing for days!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...g-224-emerges-jet-abort-three-months-ago.html

 

[watcher9]

Looking at the green line on the graph and if I'm reading it right, it looks like they did a hard push to climb upward and then the engine failed. The speed didn't seem to increase for that push like it did from an earlier push. Could the engine have choked down or could the engine have caught on fire and they were trying to climb to extinguish the flame?

 

[CARIIS]

You know what just hit me -- if it is gonna be related to trailstrike repair the recorders may not have much on them - that is where they are in the rear ugh

The pictures are truly biziare!

- the wings are inverted?
- there are saveral pics of charred wreckage while the ground below has no scorching?
- There is a similar pic with the same thiing
- there is no forward motion on the biggest area where the wings and the front half of the aircraft seems to have ust plopped down, but it looks more like it was a fire before it hit --a fire that started at impact how would it leave such like a clear outline , fuel leaking on fire does not just "stop " , it runs while its leaking and igniting ?

The vertical fin looks as if it was gently knocked off and that piece of wreckage shows no evidance of fire at all - almost pristine again like a leaf gently falling to the ground - very peculiar stuff

- there are vast amounts of stuff that are just not burned at all ?

- a large chunk of wreckage has soot on it that would come from being on fire while air was blowing - which would seem to indicate a fire in the air in some pictures

just crazy totally prisitine wreckage feet from a fire ?

Highly flamable material perfect ?

jet engines are heavy look at this one it did not even make a crater

This looks like a recorder - so nicely placed?

This is the one that looks more like in flight sooting as oppossed to be burned on the ground- no?

another angle


a lot of them look like "stuff" has been "placed" in "piles"

Not sure what I am thinking or saying- but is sure is stragne stuff! Imo

 

[restarea]

The news alerts on my phone were nice enough to wake me up to say Metrojet just announced an "external influence" brought down the plane, not technical. This was an attack.

 

[CARIIS]

RE: "external influence"

Oh brother my heart sank , I thought they found residual from missle, burn patterns of victims (they can tell - if there bodies ave shrpnel in them, the way a bomb burns one compared to kerosene limb damage etc

Hunting for info--first thing I hit is this

airline claims.........

“We (accident invetigation resume pls) exclude technical problems and reject human error an executive from the airline that operated the flight said Monday.

I thought a paperpusher from behind a desk , in managment, opened to the possiblity of losing his job does "not count"! (Think VW emissions scandel - any of us ever heard of an honest executive?

...........been fully inspected and its crew didn’t communicate any problems during .................happens often think Three Mile Island!

But so far, they (I am assuming these executives are referring to trained folks who live in accident debris fields!) haven’t been able to give a definitive explanation ........its been 72 hours Mr executive , German Wings final has not come out yet, nor the one in the dessert , nor the one in the freezing cloud - and this executive claims to "declare" external" event solely casue those trained to make that determination have not done so in a couple of days!
Not saying that might not end up being the case but .......72 hours.

Now if someone from NTSB BEA
stated something different world! And they would make it so tenative -and guarded ; "preliminary examation has revealed some shrapnel evidence, that in the past have indicated an external event (may have , small possibility,could have , maybe,)be related to a missle or bomb. but we wont know for sure for about 9 months !

Culture plays a dyanamic here as well. Russia did not down MAL 17 (a posture still maintained by them) despite having video of launchers being moved into place .
None of us, I am sure, forgot all the hot air from "executives" during the MAL 370 fiasco.
NYTimes:
More info about this person who made the satement --Alexander Smirnov, the deputy general director of Metrojet, his quote "no technical fault" , from a mangement type, IMo , has no business being picked up by the media as a valid source for engineer related quote.

Te areas of study one must engage in to become a entry level AAI-Airline Accidnet Investgator :

• The management of safety
• Safety risk management
• Safety assurance
• Human Factors in safety investigations
• Safety investigator’s guide to operational error
• Human Performance in safety investigations
• Airline internal safety investigation
• Airline internal safety investigation training
• Airline safety reporting program
• State accident investigation – Annex 13
• Organization and planning of an investigation
• Conduct of the investigation
• The Operator “go-team”

Position Description
An aviation accident investigator may also be called an air safety investigator. They investigate, study and report on airplane crashes to figure out how and why they happened. Aviation accident investigators cover a myriad of areas and try to discover the cause of accidents. This is done through various means including interviewing survivors, reviewing and analyzing flight and maintenance records, studying human performance issues and operations, examining engines, systems, instruments and other airplane parts, Including operations, flight recorders, structures, cabin safety, aircraft performance (engineering), airports, air traffic services, and power plant (engines). to try and figure out what caused an accident.
Military experience, degrees in engineering, and law, and military accident investigation schools are helpful.

http://www.avjobs.com/careers/detai...ated=Aircraft Accident Investigator&RecID=123
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/11/02/world/europe/ap-egypt-russian-plane-crash.html
https://www.iata.org/training/courses/Pages/aircraft-accident-investigation-talp25.aspx

 

[Tulessa]

The news alerts on my phone were nice enough to wake me up to say Metrojet just announced an "external influence" brought down the plane, not technical. This was an attack.

Oh no......

 

[Isabelle]

Does an "external cause" lessen the airline liability?

 

[Momoffourboys]

Way too soon to be making claims of "external influence" IMO

 

[Hatfield]

Been trying to think of any possible ways this plane could have an honest mechanical failure and end up like it did and I cant think of anything that would cause such a large debri field.

It seems it has to be foul play because of the large debri field. Because even if an engine caught fire then I think the plane would still come down in tact.

I don't see anything normal about it breaking apart in the sky. I did hear 1 reporter on the news talk that a plane could breakup as its falling although it is highly unlikely especially if the pilots were still trying to fly it.

I have to conclude foul play IMO. Meaning either bomb or missile

ETA: Reading back and if the plane underwent a tail strike and had significant repairs then I would have to lean towards the tail work that was done may have caused it. I need to read further about this tail strike.

BTW a tail strike is a fancy name for a really serious plane accident but everyone managed to survive. Its no small thing when the tail of your plane scrapes the ground upon landing.