Australia Samantha Murphy, 51, last seen leaving her property to go for a run in the Canadian State Forest, Ballarat, 4 Feb 2024 *Arrest* #12

[Trooper]

The point of the committal process is to filter out before trial prosecutions which have next to no chance of succeeding. But the committal process seems to have swollen over the years, it's expensive for both sides, and for the accused a committal then trial may feel like going through trial twice.

edited by me for focus..

this part is the sticking point of it all. .. which bits have no chance of succeeding.. this is for a judge to decide, but the process is being fine tuned somewhat to make Barristers scrutinise stuff to its finest alloy and filter out the possibly unsuccessful stuff before bringing it before the court. It's for time efficiency purposes, which is not to say Committal hearings are a waste of time, they are not, they do play a part in the justice system but a lot of keen eyes are reviewing it's efficacy in it's current form...

So Barristers in Victoria are testing the concept of skipping Committal , particularly in Legal Aid cases, because they do have the most oversight and things are less likely to slip between the cracks.. the provision to do it has always been there, it's just that it is being utilised now , more often, at this point, at the heavy end of the criminal scale. The Murder point, so to speak.

 

[JLZ]

So Barristers in Victoria are testing the concept of skipping Committal , particularly in Legal Aid cases, because they do have the most oversight and things are less likely to slip between the cracks.. the provision to do it has always been there, it's just that it is being utilised now , more often, at this point, at the heavy end of the criminal scale. The Murder point, so to speak.

Try it out on the povos first. Like seeing if a new drug is safe by putting it in famine relief parcels.

 

[Kemug]

Is he able to say more than 4 words at a time?

Isn't "Yes your Honour" only 3?

 

[HoneyBunOne]

Isn't "Yes your Honour" only 3?

But "Not guilty your Honour" is 4.

 

[Kemug]

So it would be easier for him to say "Guilty your Honour"

 

[Rocket333]

Is he able to say more than 4 words at a time?

Maybe it’s just English he struggles with. He might be quite fluent in unintelligible bs and I’d pay to watch some of that.

 

[Rocket333]

He appeared to have only his ute as an asset, and that may well have been a work ute owned by his fathers company..

*ute, ---- Australian for pickup, backie,

Wouldn’t the ute be frozen as a key piece of evidence?

 

[Rocket333]

edited by me for focus..

this part is the sticking point of it all. .. which bits have no chance of succeeding.. this is for a judge to decide, but the process is being fine tuned somewhat to make Barristers scrutinise stuff to its finest alloy and filter out the possibly unsuccessful stuff before bringing it before the court. It's for time efficiency purposes, which is not to say Committal hearings are a waste of time, they are not, they do play a part in the justice system but a lot of keen eyes are reviewing it's efficacy in it's current form...

So Barristers in Victoria are testing the concept of skipping Committal , particularly in Legal Aid cases, because they do have the most oversight and things are less likely to slip between the cracks.. the provision to do it has always been there, it's just that it is being utilised now , more often, at this point, at the heavy end of the criminal scale. The Murder point, so to speak.

This is all fascinating and I’m grateful for all of the legal folk sharing hard-won knowledge and insights here.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

This is all fascinating and I’m grateful for all of the legal folk sharing hard-won knowledge and insights here.

Same, It certainly helps the layperson like myself.

 

[mrjitty]

edited by me for focus..

this part is the sticking point of it all. .. which bits have no chance of succeeding.. this is for a judge to decide, but the process is being fine tuned somewhat to make Barristers scrutinise stuff to its finest alloy and filter out the possibly unsuccessful stuff before bringing it before the court. It's for time efficiency purposes, which is not to say Committal hearings are a waste of time, they are not, they do play a part in the justice system but a lot of keen eyes are reviewing it's efficacy in it's current form...

So Barristers in Victoria are testing the concept of skipping Committal , particularly in Legal Aid cases, because they do have the most oversight and things are less likely to slip between the cracks.. the provision to do it has always been there, it's just that it is being utilised now , more often, at this point, at the heavy end of the criminal scale. The Murder point, so to speak.

I presume if a case lands on a barristers desk which doesn't appear to meet the 'case to answer' standard, the defence could still immediately move for a dismissal in any event?

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Stumbled across this site, great to see such engaging respectful discussion and some smart folks here too. Mr Stephenson has in my opinion backed himself into a massive corner - meta data, public statements combined with CCTV will form the basis of the prosecution. The alibi request by the magistrate yesterday is interesting -between the hours of 7am and 7pm…gaps need to be filled, I’d say he can’t! If he takes the stand a KC will tear him to shreds. The evidence I believe is sufficient-there’s no one else involved. This guy has bitten off more than he can chew.

 

[Trooper]

I presume if a case lands on a barristers desk which doesn't appear to meet the 'case to answer' standard, the defence could still immediately move for a dismissal in any event?

A longish response..
1. this is what a committal trial is, in Victoria . at this time.
Different states and territories have different rules about whether committal hearings are needed.

During a committal hearing, a magistrate will consider the evidence the prosecution intends to use and decide if there is enough to take the matter to a trial. Depending on where the trial takes place, it will be held in either the Supreme, County or District Court.

If the magistrate decides the prosecution does not have enough evidence, they will dismiss the matter and the defendant will be free to leave.

At a committal hearing, there is no jury and the magistrate makes all the decisions and judgments.

• If the magistrate decides there is enough evidence, the defendant will be committed for trial. This means the matter will be heard in one of the higher courts at a later date.

( so. you see that this component is a pre trial, .. an opener, a matter previous to a trial at the Supreme Court.. it points the way to a full blown , 24 carat Supreme Court trial, if the magistrate sees it that way. )

 

[Trooper]

ISSN
1034-5086
ISBN
0642163456
Published Date
01-01-1991
Subject
Criminal justice system
Series

The future of committals​

Abstract
Legislative initiatives to change the committal process are being considered by several Australian states. The papers at this conference summarise the debate surrounding committal hearings, presenting a number of different viewpoints. The papers consider whether committal hearings should be abolished and whether they take up too much court time, exacerbating delays in the criminal justice system. Some papers also examine whether committal hearings provide an effective mechanism for the early identification of guilty pleas and for filtering out weak cases.

(This is a clip from the The Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) . Australia’s national research and knowledge centre on crime and justice, compiling trend data and disseminating research and policy advice. , and has lots of interesting stuff that applies to your question.,. ) '

https://www.aic.gov.au/about-us

​

 

[Trooper]

The next bit... Barristers are first and foremost , officers of the court.. this goes for defence Barristers, and Dept. of Public Prosecution Barristers,.. all are officers of the court, to which bar they are called, and to which they swear an oath to uphold. This overrides politics, individuals, companies, organisations, everything except the court, all courts, Magistrates Court, County Court, Supreme Court, Federal Court. .. in that order.

'I presume if a case lands on a barristers desk which doesn't appear to meet the 'case to answer' standard, the defence could still immediately move for a dismissal in any event?'...
.......
what happens, is,, the magistrate makes that decision, after the prosecutor and defence have laid out the nuts and bolts, the bones and flesh of their case, both sides of it, .... the skipping of it, means, it all goes off to the Supreme Court without this , you could say, brake on the bicycle. . the barristers of either side are to monitor themselves, to carve off the stuff that drives a judge mad, and not muck around with the Supreme Court's time with what might be termed legal frippery.

End.

 

[mrjitty]

A longish response..
1. this is what a committal trial is, in Victoria . at this time.
Different states and territories have different rules about whether committal hearings are needed.

During a committal hearing, a magistrate will consider the evidence the prosecution intends to use and decide if there is enough to take the matter to a trial. Depending on where the trial takes place, it will be held in either the Supreme, County or District Court.

If the magistrate decides the prosecution does not have enough evidence, they will dismiss the matter and the defendant will be free to leave.

At a committal hearing, there is no jury and the magistrate makes all the decisions and judgments.

• If the magistrate decides there is enough evidence, the defendant will be committed for trial. This means the matter will be heard in one of the higher courts at a later date.

( so. you see that this component is a pre trial, .. an opener, a matter previous to a trial at the Supreme Court.. it points the way to a full blown , 24 carat Supreme Court trial, if the magistrate sees it that way. )

Yes I am aware of that!

My question though, is if you do away with the formal committal (aka preliminary hearing) process, IMO the Court likely still has an inherent jurisdiction to dismiss frivolous charges on application in the pretrial process.

This is an important safeguard in my view as Judicial oversight is critical to ensure the state does not misuse criminal charges to harass people.

 

[Trooper]

Yes I am aware of that!

My question though, is if you do away with the formal committal (aka preliminary hearing) process, IMO the Court likely still has an inherent jurisdiction to dismiss frivolous charges on application in the pretrial process.

This is an important safeguard in my view as Judicial oversight is critical to ensure the state does not misuse criminal charges to harass people.

Let's look at NSW, for example. NSW has done away with Committal Hearings.. the process now is..

While a Magistrate still retains the power to manage committal proceedings from the time an accused is charged until she or he is committed for trial or sentence, the Magistrate is no longer required to make a decision about the sufficiency of the evidence before committal.

Therefore, a person charged with an indictable offence must still have their matter committed to the District or Supreme Court for trial or sentence. However, the procedures have changed significantly.

Under the new system, defendants charged with indictable offences no longer have the right to a Committal Hearing. Instead, the Magistrate’s role is now limited to overseeing the procedural steps required under the Criminal Procedure Act 1986.

This involves:

• ensuring a brief of evidence is served on the defendant or their lawyer
• ensuring that a charge certificate is filed and served on the defendant or their lawyer,
• ensuring that a case conference is held between the prosecution and the defence (if the defendant is represented), and
• a case conference certificate is subsequently filed with the court.

The defendant must then enter a plea to each of the charges that prosecution is proceeding with and the Magistrate will commit the matter for trial or for sentence.

This site will expand on your question, .. Victoria has not done this, as yet, but it is leading up to it, because it is working well in NSW.. it is cutting down the backlog in the courts to a significant degree, apparently. .

Committal Hearing NSW | JB Solicitors

What is a committal hearing NSW? A committal hearing, which is also known as an initial proceeding or preliminary examination.

jbsolicitors.com.au

 

[Trooper]

It might be time to again remind folks that Victoria rarely , rarely goes to a judge only trial. It does it occasionally but when that happens, it means a judge has decided that it is in the public interest for that to be so. . Mr Stephenson will likely, most likely appear in front of a jury.


In NSW, for example, the defendant can choose to have a judge only trial, he/she has no choice in what judge it will be, and it often backfires... one of the things about a judge only trial, is, other judges are reluctant to find any fault in a brother / sister judge on appeal.. on a jury trial there are some areas to use in an appeal.

 

[mrjitty]

Let's look at NSW, for example. NSW has done away with Committal Hearings.. the process now is..

While a Magistrate still retains the power to manage committal proceedings from the time an accused is charged until she or he is committed for trial or sentence, the Magistrate is no longer required to make a decision about the sufficiency of the evidence before committal.

Therefore, a person charged with an indictable offence must still have their matter committed to the District or Supreme Court for trial or sentence. However, the procedures have changed significantly.

Under the new system, defendants charged with indictable offences no longer have the right to a Committal Hearing. Instead, the Magistrate’s role is now limited to overseeing the procedural steps required under the Criminal Procedure Act 1986.

This involves:

• ensuring a brief of evidence is served on the defendant or their lawyer
• ensuring that a charge certificate is filed and served on the defendant or their lawyer,
• ensuring that a case conference is held between the prosecution and the defence (if the defendant is represented), and
• a case conference certificate is subsequently filed with the court.

The defendant must then enter a plea to each of the charges that prosecution is proceeding with and the Magistrate will commit the matter for trial or for sentence.

This site will expand on your question, .. Victoria has not done this, as yet, but it is leading up to it, because it is working well in NSW.. it is cutting down the backlog in the courts to a significant degree, apparently. .

Committal Hearing NSW | JB Solicitors

What is a committal hearing NSW? A committal hearing, which is also known as an initial proceeding or preliminary examination.

jbsolicitors.com.au

Interesting.

I do get that as a matter of practice a committal hearing is usually not needed. However based on what I've been seeing in the US, i do worry that actually we can't rely on counsel to be wholly ethical. (especially defence attorneys intentionally misleading the court in pretrial pleadings).

I want to stress this is not an issue I am seeing in the commonwealth.

 

[Trooper]

Interesting.

I do get that as a matter of practice a committal hearing is usually not needed. However based on what I've been seeing in the US, i do worry that actually we can't rely on counsel to be wholly ethical. (especially defence attorneys intentionally misleading the court in pretrial pleadings).

I want to stress this is not an issue I am seeing in the commonwealth.

I certainly agree with and join with you in your hesitation.. for what it's worth, and in particular , in this case, I am cranky about him choosing to scoot thru to the Supreme Court.. I very much wanted a Committal hearing for my own selfish purposes!!.. but it is trending in VIctoria, in quite high profile cases to go this route.

Money, as in most things, is the driver, but Stephenson still gets the very best of representation my taxes can donate to, and this, while personally infuriating is absolutely correct in it's process.

 

[Trooper]

Stumbled across this site, great to see such engaging respectful discussion and some smart folks here too. Mr Stephenson has in my opinion backed himself into a massive corner - meta data, public statements combined with CCTV will form the basis of the prosecution. The alibi request by the magistrate yesterday is interesting -between the hours of 7am and 7pm…gaps need to be filled, I’d say he can’t! If he takes the stand a KC will tear him to shreds. The evidence I believe is sufficient-there’s no one else involved. This guy has bitten off more than he can chew.

That Magistrate was right onto it, he had a certain amount of , a sort of pity , for Stephenson, but it did not deter him from laying out the steps Stephenson has to take, .. he was adamant about the 7am and 7pm bit...and then he told him the really awkward news , that he had 14 days to do it in. Be back NOV 27th. bang goes the gavel.

You say he can't !!!! I second that motion.