SC - Columbia - Sheriff Slams Female Student to Floor In Class - #2

[Trident]

So the take down shouldn't have been warranted for a detention offense?

Sometimes a take down is all that will get through to certain children. I'd rather see it happen now, the way it did, than her refusing to obey LE in a year or two.

I am the person who said I would shake the officer's hand if any member of my family acted liked that and he acted accordingly. I meant what I said and said what I meant. Sometimes young people need to understand that there is always someone bigger, stronger, and smarter than they are. I feel it is an important life lesson, one that may save a life. But that's just me; I was raised in a time before the world turned upside down.

 

[katydid23]

Shouldn't he have reassured her and tried to calm her down? I thought SROs were all about protecting our children.

From what was posted above, he began by saying " Please move...I promise to treat you fairly." Sounds like he tried to reassure her.

 

[vestigare]

I have a question for everyone. We have touched briefly on whether or not the rest of the students in the class should have remained in the classroom during the "incident".

My opinion, as I stated earlier, is that the remainder of the students should have been removed from the classroom (asked to leave), and I think that should have happened at the point that the vice principal arrived-- even before the SRO was called.

I think the teacher should have dismissed them (or gone with them) with their belongings to the library, or another appropriate location, while making appropriate notifications . I base this decision on my experiences as a university teacher, and as a long term content specialist volunteer in my local public school district. The training I've attended emphasizes that when a threat or disruption is occurring outside the classroom, shelter in place quietly with the students. When a threat or disruption is occurring INSIDE the classroom by a student (or other), make every effort early in the situation to remove the other students from the situation. I have had to actually do this twice in my career so far-- both times at the elementary level. (Once was a parent screaming, threatening the staff, and melting down at the onsite daycare program, as she received the standard notification that her child would no longer be allowed to attend the program, due to disruptive and violent behavior.)

Anyway, removal of the other students serves several purposes-- safety for the remainder of the kids, preventing them from becoming part of the situation, preventing them from the trauma of witnessing the situation, as well potentially de-escalating the situation for the disruptor, who may desire the "audience" of other students as a motivation to continue to act out, or escalate the disruption. This also allows the responders to completely focus their attention on handling and negotiating with the "disruptor". (Not unlike well-established hostage negotiation procedures.)

Several posters here have said they thought the kids should stay in these situation. I'd be interested in hearing why, if anyone wants to discuss. Or what others think about removing the kids.

I don't think it should have even gotten to that point but if it did get to the point where the teacher just had to be separated from the student, for whatever his personal reasons were, I think it would have been better to just tell Suzie, "Okay Suzie you don't want to leave then we will; you can sit here until the bell rings for dismissal." Then the teacher could have walked the other students to the library or cafeteria or commons and then gone to the office and filed the appropriate paperwork to make sure Suzie doesn't return the next day.

 

[EllieBee]

I agree. My daughter was really a pretty good kid who only got in trouble for minor things like yakking in class or goofing off when they were supposed to be waiting on line for something.

But whenever we got notification that she had some infraction, we chose as her "consequence" something she would reeeeaaally hate, lol. Usually writing an essay defending her behavior (if she was taking the "It's not fair" tack) or what she might have done differently (if she acknowledged her wrong).

I admit, although we felt that this "punishment" taught her that poor choices usually result in bad consequences, and that it gave her more practice with what, at the time, were HORRIBLE writing skills, we also chose this over other forms of punishment because to her, it was a fate worse than death. (Drama) For another child, it might be no car keys for a week, or no internet....whatever that child's "currency" is.

I know every child is different, but I would think in most cases, if a child does something bad enough to warrant a suspension, having to serve it in-school would be way worse to them than an at-home suspension.

And sorry to go all Pollyanna again, but I really believe EVERYTHING is a teachable moment. I very much hate detentions where the students are just expected to sit and do nothing or are allowed to goof off. Why not some in-service around campus- helping teachers, janitors, office personnel, or assigning a group task to those in detention that helps them learn critical thinking skills and team building? Helping to grow them into members of society that can negotiate conflict without violence?

I know, kids are ****s and only an iron fist will work with these delinquents.

I just happen to believe that discipline can include loving guidance and need not equal brutality disrespect for children and who they are learning to be. They learn from watching us.

Maybe suspension should always be in school suspension because what are working parents supposed to do? It's like a snow day with no warning.

 

[human]

Well, YES....but only because she was continuing to disrupt the class. If she had allowed the teacher to place her cell on his desk until class was over, no problem, it's all good.

But once she started resisting and being defiant, she herself is escalating things. She ,herself,is taking it into 'illegal' territory by disrupting class time.

Call in the counselor. Or better yet, have a plan with students in the begiining of the year to discuss what can be done if kids are having issues. Make a plan with the students. Be proactive. Students will be your team if you talk it over with them as a strategy when school starts.

 

[K_Z]

My notes in green.


Seems like there's overlap between student behavior -
- which merits school discipline (detention, suspension, expulsion) and
- which amounts to criminal acts and warrant LEO being summoned to (possibly) arrest.
Sometimes a lot of overlap, sometimes just a thin line. Not necessarily an either-or decision, could be both.
Agreeing that preference would be to handle as school disc. matter. Not always poss. JM2cts.

I think the student should have been apprised of where she was on the discipline continuum as the situation unfolded. As in, "at this point, you will be receiving 6 hours detention. If you continue to refuse to follow directions and leave the classroom, you will be increasing your penalty to in school suspension." The RSO should have told her, "If you continue to refuse to cooperate, my role will be to arrest you and take you to jail." Etc.

This should be standard "negotiating" language with disruptive students, IMO. The feedback lets them know where they are on the algorithm/ continuum of discipline as they continue or escalate the situation. ** This technique DOES NOT WORK and should not be used for violent situations-- only for defiance, belligerance, etc.

 

[KaaBoom]

What? I disagree. The girl and another classmate have been charged. I think she's changing schools but I imagine if she were to stay in the same school she would still face whatever the typical punishment is. (Someone posted the chart - 3 days suspension or something?) How does that work out to she's completely innocent?

The girls both returned to school with no suspensions. It was the teacher and the administrator who were suspended over the incident, not the student’s.

Which is exactly the way it should be, Because as much as some of the victim blamers in this forum would like to see it, we don’t punish victims. The criminal charges will eventually be dropped against them too, for the same reason.

Students in Spring Valley Incident Allowed to Return to Class

 

[katydid23]

How many student were in this classroom?
I keep seeing references to 35 students.
Please provide link.

link to what is current in my district:

Approximately 60 algebra classes — including algebra 1A through algebra 2 — enroll more than 40 students, 30 algebra classes have 46 to 49 students, and six have between 51 and 65. Foshay Learning Center has one class of 71 students.

http://laschoolreport.com/cortines-utla-class-size-reduction-lausd-priority/

 

[bluesneakers]

This is insanity. Treating students like this. Abused women should learn. If only they would listen, they would not get hit!!!

What kind of world do we live in where adult men act like that? Power and unresolved control issues with the teacher and the officer.

I post this once again in the hope that more and more schools will use this approach and not create people with rage issues

http://acestoohigh.com/2012/04/23/l...oach-to-school-discipline-expulsions-drop-85/

Lincoln High School in Walla Walla, WA, tries new approach to school discipline — suspensions drop 85%

I like measurable results.

Before:
798 suspensions (days students were out of school)
50 expulsions
600 written referrals

After:
135 suspensions (days students were out of school)
30 expulsions
320 written referrals

“It sounds simple,” says Sporleder about the new approach. “Just by asking kids what’s going on with them, they just started talking. It made a believer out of me right away.”

"Only 5% of all out-of-school suspensions were for weapons or drugs" Only five percent! So why do we need cops? Oh, for this stuff:

The other 95% were categorized as “disruptive behavior” and “other”, which includes cell phone use, violation of dress code, being “defiant”, display of affection, and, in at least one case, farting.

 

[EllieBee]

And what about all these work places that supposedly will fire you for using your cell phone as some Websleuthers have claimed? I would think those parents are not answering their cell phones at work either whether the school is calling or not.

My school actually prohibits even teachers from having their cell phones on them during school hours. They must be put away except on a break or planning period.

My daughter's school always knew to use my school's main number in case of emergency, but often they would still use my cell phone # and I would not get the voicemail until well after school. My not answering the phone was not because I did not care.

 

[bluesneakers]

Call in the counselor. Or better yet, have a plan with students in the begiining of the year to discuss what can be done if kids are having issues. Make a plan with the students. Be proactive. Students will be your team if you talk it over with them as a strategy when school starts.

This is an excellent idea. Ownership works, ime and imo.

 

[vestigare]

Ah-- she was not arrested for exercising her constitutional rights. She was arrested for interfering with the arrest and handling of the situation. Had she spoken up in a more appropriate manner, time, and place, she would not have been arrested. At the point she got involved, her behavior was inappropriate. She should not have inserted herself into the encounter.

Yet another reason why the other students should not be in the classroom when these kinds of situations are unfolding, IMO. Rmoval of the other students may have completely de-escalated the situation, and physical force may not have been needed/ asked for. At that point, with the other students gone, they could just wait out the defiance of the student as long as necessary, while trying to reason with her, explaining where they were in the process of determining what her punishment would be, etc.

Yes, you have the right to film, speak to a police officer (even curse) and insist that police behavior is not appropriate. She did not interfere with the arrest in any way. She didn't even get close to the officer. She was arrested for speaking out.

I agree that removing the other students would have made more sense but this school apparently lacking in that if even the Admin couldn't muster enough thought to have done that instead.

 

[ohreally]

I have a question for everyone. We have touched briefly on whether or not the rest of the students in the class should have remained in the classroom during the "incident".

My opinion, as I stated earlier, is that the remainder of the students should have been removed from the classroom (asked to leave), and I think that should have happened at the point that the vice principal arrived-- even before the SRO was called.

I think the teacher should have dismissed them (or gone with them) with their belongings to the library, or another appropriate location, while making appropriate notifications . I base this decision on my experiences as a university teacher, and as a long term content specialist volunteer in my local public school district. The training I've attended emphasizes that when a threat or disruption is occurring outside the classroom, shelter in place quietly with the students. When a threat or disruption is occurring INSIDE the classroom by a student (or other), make every effort early in the situation to remove the other students from the situation. I have had to actually do this twice in my career so far-- both times at the elementary level. (Once was a parent screaming, threatening the staff, and melting down at the onsite daycare program, as she received the standard notification that her child would no longer be allowed to attend the program, due to disruptive and violent behavior.)

Anyway, removal of the other students serves several purposes-- safety for the remainder of the kids, preventing them from becoming part of the situation, preventing them from the trauma of witnessing the situation, as well potentially de-escalating the situation for the disruptor, who may desire the "audience" of other students as a motivation to continue to act out, or escalate the disruption. This also allows the responders to completely focus their attention on handling and negotiating with the "disruptor". (Not unlike well-established hostage negotiation procedures.)

Several posters here have said they thought the kids should stay in these situation. I'd be interested in hearing why, if anyone wants to discuss. Or what others think about removing the kids.

In hindsight it probably would of been the best solution. I really think the RSO thought that each step he was taking (calmly talking to her, moving the desks around, and taking her chrome shutting it and placing it out of the way) was going to be the one to get her out of the desk without having to touch her. By the time he physically went to move her he lost all sense of self control.

 

[Hope4More]

From what was posted above, he began by saying " Please move...I promise to treat you fairly." Sounds like he tried to reassure her.

The professional association for SRO's in SC opposes having SRO's put in the situation Fields faced, because SROs as a group don't think it is appropriate to be called into classrooms to resolve this kind of conflict.

The SROs aren't student counsellors or administrators, and they're not perceived as or trained as such. They're cops, and the misbehaving student (s) they're asked to deal with morph into lawbreakers the moment an SRO walks in.

 

[katydid23]

The professional association for SRO's in SC opposes having SRO's put in the situation Fields faced, because SROs as a group don't think it is appropriate to be called into classrooms to resolve this kind of conflict.

The SROs aren't student counsellors or administrators, and they're not perceived as or trained as such. They're cops, and the misbehaving student (s) they're asked to deal with morph into lawbreakers the moment an SRO walks in.

I agree with the above. Which is why it makes me sad that he is fired form his LE job for doing what he is trained to do in LE situations. It is hard to dial it back when on a campus and asked to remove someone from a classroom. JMO

 

[vestigare]

Actually, what she was largely doing, by her own account, was screaming loudly and crying; her challenging of Fields was very indirect, at best. If he'd been a teacher he would have tried to quiet her down or have her go out to the hallway, because in that situation her hysteria, while perfectly understandable, was entirely unhelpful.

Being a police officer with a different toolkit, he arrested her instead.

His toolkit is going to get him a nice lawsuit. The supreme court has affirmed that we have the right to protest police action and speak in any manner you wish to a police officer short of threatening him.
It does not matter one iota if the cop doesn't find it helpful or nice or whatever. The first amendment is not for protecting speech that is only helpful, non hysteric, at the right time or anything else. It is for protecting even speech you don't like.

 

[EllieBee]

I think the student should have been apprised of where she was on the discipline continuum as the situation unfolded. As in, "at this point, you will be receiving 6 hours detention. If you continue to refuse to follow directions and leave the classroom, you will be increasing your penalty to in school suspension." The RSO should have told her, "If you continue to refuse to cooperate, my role will be to arrest you and take you to jail." Etc.

This should be standard "negotiating" language with disruptive students, IMO. The feedback lets them know where they are on the algorithm/ continuum of discipline as they continue or escalate the situation. ** This technique DOES NOT WORK and should not be used for violent situations-- only for defiance, belligerance, etc.

One of the best books I have read on effective discipline is "1-2-3 Magic". It is essentially what I think you are saying. It is geared towards younger children, but some of the principles apply to adolescents, too, who are essentially toddlers in a bigger body, lol. V

http://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-Children/dp/1889140430

 

[kimlynn]

"standing up for what you think is right"
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...156890&highlight=standing+what's#post12156890

Think being the operative word which is why it is in capital letters. So standing up for what you THINK is right isn't equal to saying I think it's right.
Maybe the word you should have been in capital letters but I thought it was plain enough for most to understand.

IMO

 

[Hope4More]

The girls both returned to school with no suspensions. It was the teacher and the administrator who were suspended over the incident, not the student’s.

Which is exactly the way it should be, Because as much as some of the victim blamers in this forum would like to see it, we don’t punish victims. The criminal charges will eventually be dropped against them too, for the same reason.

Students in Spring Valley Incident Allowed to Return to Class

Did I miss something? If not, no, the teacher and principal were not suspended. And why would they be??

Scrolling past the victim thing, but in passing will say IMO it is a total disgrace that she was not suspended.

 

[vestigare]

Just an estimate going by the number in our high school classes. Most classes are full because they do not hire a teacher unless there is a full class needed.


http://laschoolreport.com/cortines-utla-class-size-reduction-lausd-priority/


Approximately 60 algebra classes — including algebra 1A through algebra 2 — enroll more than 40 students, 30 algebra classes have 46 to 49 students, and six have between 51 and 65. Foshay Learning Center has one class of 71 students.

You do understand this school is in South Carolina correct?
The student to teacher ratio at South Valley Richland 02 High School is 17:1