Scoping out the house

[IrishMist]

Well, I hopped myself a while ago, just it was the opposite way. And I've always been up-front about why, so I'll ask you why you hopped.

I don't remember seeing this, and am curious as to what made you change. Would you mind repeating it?

 

[shiloh]

I understand. But he didn't come to that conclusion at least by the time he had written his book. He blames all of the attacks on the fact that he had sold personal information about Boulder detectives to the tabloids. If any other possibility had occurred to him, he did not mention it.

 

[BBB167893]

"But he didn't come to that conclusion at least by the time he had written his book. He blames all of the attacks on the fact that he had sold personal information about Boulder detectives to the tabloids. If any other possibility had occurred to him, he did not mention it."

Maybe so. I didn't say definitively that it wasn't related, did I? Just offering an alternative. Maybe he was a bit hasty. I never said he was perfect. But if the machine gun attack had been intended to kill someone, why stop after one unsuccessful attempt? I mean, from what we can gather, there was only one incident for each officer. Why stop there? In for a penny, in for a pound, right?

"I don't remember seeing this, and am curious as to what made you change. Would you mind repeating it?"

You didn't see it, Irishmist, because I have yet to post it here. No, I don't mind.

I really didn't start following this case until around mid-1998, and even then, it was only a dabbling, you know? I swallowed the first Tracey crock like gospel. By early 1999, I was a die-hard RST.

I remember the first chinks in the armor started to appear about a year later, with the now-legendary confrontation between ST and the Rs on Larry King. It was very difficult for me as a Ramsey supporter to watch that! Patsy was doped up to the hilt, and John looked like a cringing, squirming rat. Even then, I had to admit that ST made them look bad. That feeling was intensified by the resignation of Ellis Armistead around the same time, citing that incident as one reason why he couldn't stay on. But I remained true to my belief. Even then, though, I disagreed with the lawsuit against ST. I was brought up to believe that when two gentlemen have a dispute of honor, they settle it between themselves in a sporting manner. The old-fashioned way.

By summer of 2001, the chinks had become large dents. By then, I had become the owner of a stun gun (still have it!) and, in an ironic twist of fate, that was the year Lou Smit went on his basement window mystery tour. In a move that was designed to help the Ramseys, it did the exact opposite in my case! Watching Smit, a skinny man with no winter clothing, shift and shimmy and slide through that window, taking half of the sill with him, then looking at an actual crime-scene photo of said window well and seeing just how little dirt and debris had been disturbed shook me to the bone. A later experiment with said stunner (which I would rather not repeat!) showed that the stun gun theory was pretty ridiculous. (Looked like I'd been stung by a bee with a tattoo needle for a stinger!)

I drifted for a while. In the late part of that year, the Rs were deposed in the now-infamous libel case, where John admitted, contrary to his earlier assertions, that his PIs were never tracking down other leads, but were conducting a smear campaign against potential witnesses to, as John put it, keep him and Patsy out of prison. Even then, my brain told me that a person without the kind of finances that they had would not be able to do that. Indeed, it was just wrong, as far as I was concerned. That was another dent among many that would soon follow.

Finally, came mid-2002. This was in the midst of the Danielle Van Dam case and the many child abductions and murders that followed. And I couldn't help but notice one thing: none of those cases even REMOTELY resembled this one! The final nail in the coffin came when a certain forum (we know who), which had been my rock for several years, who would shout Ramsey innocence from the mountain tops, did the SAME THING against the Van Dams that they had accused the so-called "BORG" of doing. I didn't need that kind of hypocrisy, and I told the boss there so!

My defection was not taken well. Let's leave it at that.

That was it for me. It had all piled up. I'd read the books, read the articles, gone over the interviews and documents like the Zapruder film. And, to borrow a phrase:

Resistance was futile.

I became one with the BORG! (lol) At first, I didn't particularly like that little nickname. Now, it's a badge of honor!

That's my story.

 

[Eagle1]

"But he didn't come to that conclusion at least by the time he had written his book. He blames all of the attacks on the fact that he had sold personal information about Boulder detectives to the tabloids. ....
.....
I remember the first chinks in the armor started to appear about a year later, with the now-legendary confrontation between ST and the Rs on Larry King. It was very difficult for me as a Ramsey supporter to watch that! Patsy was doped up to the hilt, and John looked like a cringing, squirming rat. Even then, I had to admit that ST made them look bad. QUOTE]

You and I and others have discussed at another forum that opposite personalities cause opposite reactions to all the clues. We all agreed, if I remember correctly, that we tend to judge others by how we would have reacted in their shoes.

All of us parents have been provoked to our limit at times by even the best kids, but our limit is just way short of bashing anyone over the head. A very few have said they're afraid their limit isn't way short of that, so they assume PR's isn't either. Not criticizing you. That's just how we admit we are. Hawks or doves. Not sure I want to be emphatic about this statement, may or may not be true, that eventually our personalities take over?

It's interesting that ST avoided going after the pranksters, and made an excuse in his book that LE people would covertly do such things to LE people. Tabloids or no tabloids, can any of us really picture LE people doing these things? And the answer to that would be rather important because maybe this shows there really was some group he was either not equipped and backed up to go after, or that he was somewhat afraid of, imho. So you're saying he was, in a way, admitting the incidents were connected to the case. It would be most interesting to know why the apparent gang weren't to be investigated, goes along with everyone apparently "covering for" something or someone.

As someone already pointed out, PR certainly wouldn't have done these vandalizm things. Who would have?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

As someone already pointed out, PR certainly wouldn't have done these vandalizm things. Who would have?

I'm thinking goons sent out by Ramsey attorneys.

 

[IrishMist]

Thanks for the response, Super Dave. Quite interesting. And refreshing to see someone be able to admit that they've changed their stance.

As for me, I can never seem to get off the fence. I'm starting to think that we need more information. If we had all of it, I think we'd solve it, I really do. So many great minds on here. Most are willing to be open minded.

I have my favorite suspects, but always seem to come back around to the Ramsey's. I will say this- I believe they know more than they are letting on. Why and what are they hiding? I don't know.

 

[shiloh]

SuperDave: "I drifted for a while. In the late part of that year, the Rs were deposed in the now-infamous libel case, where John admitted, contrary to his earlier assertions, that his PIs were never tracking down other leads, but were conducting a smear campaign against potential witnesses to, as John put it, keep him and Patsy out of prison."

I need to step on your cape before you fly out of here. I haven't been able to find this in the transcripts I currently have, and I'm not sure I have the right one. Was this in a deposition regarding Chris Wolf? I don't think I have that.

Or does anyone else have a link to where this deposition (or whichever one is the correct one) is?

 

[shiloh]

Nevermind, I found it. I'll take a look at it tomorrow.

Here's a link for anyone who's interested. http://www.thedailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/john_dep.html

 

[Bev]

thanks for posting that transcript. For some reason I remember it as being the opposite - he went to bed, and then Patsy did. Now I'm going to have to read all this stuff again

 

[Eagle1]

Good thinking, that the vandalism was done by goons sent by somebody. I can't believe any lawyers would cause such a thing and risk losing their license if it was ever traced back to them.

Can you come up with other possible sources for the goons by putting on your thinking cap again along those lines?

 

[BBB167893]

"All of us parents have been provoked to our limit at times by even the best kids, but our limit is just way short of bashing anyone over the head. A very few have said they're afraid their limit isn't way short of that, so they assume PR's isn't either. Not criticizing you. That's just how we admit we are. Hawks or doves. Not sure I want to be emphatic about this statement, may or may not be true, that eventually our personalities take over?"

You forgot to include me in that list of people, Eagle1. I told you that flat-out a while ago, and I did it in good faith.

"And the answer to that would be rather important because maybe this shows there really was some group he was either not equipped and backed up to go after, or that he was somewhat afraid of, imho. So you're saying he was, in a way, admitting the incidents were connected to the case."

You're putting words in my mouth, Eagle1. I don't need help with that!

"I'm thinking goons sent out by Ramsey attorneys."

Thereby hangs a tale! I got the transcript of the Miller trial today, and they weren't above dirty tricks! Still, shooting at someone? Like I said: lots of people have guns.

"I need to step on your cape before you fly out of here. I haven't been able to find this in the transcripts I currently have, and I'm not sure I have the right one. Was this in a deposition regarding Chris Wolf? I don't think I have that."

I told you not to touch the cape! Moving on, yes, it was the Wolf depo.

"Thanks for the response, Super Dave. Quite interesting. And refreshing to see someone be able to admit that they've changed their stance."

It wasn't easy, Irishmist! Far from it. Felt like a sledgehammer to the guts.


"As for me, I can never seem to get off the fence. I'm starting to think that we need more information. If we had all of it, I think we'd solve it, I really do. So many great minds on here. Most are willing to be open minded."

Hope it's not a picket fence! LOL

"I have my favorite suspects, but always seem to come back around to the Ramsey's. I will say this- I believe they know more than they are letting on. Why and what are they hiding? I don't know."

I thought for a while that the DA should have made a deal with them. Apparently, he and she DID, but not the type I had in mind! :doh:

 

[Eagle1]

Didn't mean to put any words in anyone's mouth, didn't mean anyone, and reading my post again just now, it really did come out wrong. Sorry. I meant in our judgement of facts our personalities and maybe ages, experiences, and other factors probably take over.

For instance, this isn't important, I know, but the ST/Ramsey LKL interview did not make ST look at all good to me, an older person. I wouldn't make an issue of it. Apologies again.

 

[BBB167893]

For instance, this isn't important, I know, but the ST/Ramsey LKL interview did not make ST look at all good to me, an older person. I wouldn't make an issue of it. Apologies again.

Well, normally, I'd press the matter, since that was the first chink in my RST armor. I honestly can't see how he was the one looking bad, especially since the Ramseys' former PI, Ellis Armistead agreed that it was a stupid move, not to mention Patsy's pathetic performance and (sexual) attempts to manipulate him coupled with John's flat-out CREEPY demeanor!

BUT, you might not have known that Armistead said that, and I'm younger and, admittedly, a bit more hotheaded than most here (I imagine) so that might be me.