Sexual behavior - Merged and Closed

[Ames]

You know you're accusing Patsy of being an alcoholic, Ames! Admit it, you're clearly implying she was bombed all day every day!

LOL!!!!

Just kidding, but that whole situation on the other board was ridiculous. I think that was brought up because you'd hit upon something that may very well have been a key in this puzzle - was Patsy's judgment, etc, impaired by drinking that night? Considering her previous health issues and any meds she may have been on, I think that's a valid question, and if she had been drinking, I could see where that would play into what may have happened to JonBenet.

YES, I know!! That is why I don't go to those boards anymore. I ask a simple QUESTION...and get blasted by every single IDI on there. Could you believe that shill said, that just because I would kill my child and cover it up, that doesn't mean that Patsy would. And he called me COLD BLOODED....ALL because I asked how many drinks Patsy had that night!!!!! Good grief...I am so glad to be away from that board, this one is so much nicer! I think that you are right though, the IDI's got mad because I stumbled on what may have been a key to this puzzle. Nobody knows how many cocktails that Patsy had that night, except for her and John (I am sure that the guests weren't sitting around counting how many drinks Patsy had that night.) The IDI's keep saying how "sweet" Patsy was, and that she could "never" harm her child. Well, we all know what alcohol does to people, and if she wasn't used to drinking, or was on medication...it would have really changed her personality...and made her more on edge. (I would like to know how much John had to drink that night, also). I DO believe that the alcohol had something to do with it, and when this murder first occurred, thats what some investigators were saying too. That Patsy had too much to drink, JB wet the bed...and it pushed Patsy over the edge. (Case closed...imo).

As I've said before, and this is imo, I think the head wound preceeded everything else that happened in regards to JB's murder that night - but my main question is, who incurred the head wound, and why? If Patsy had been drinking and had had more than she ought to have had, then I could definitely see her turning on JB over something and striking her, perhaps even much harder than she meant to. Something to think about....

I STILL believe that Patsy had too much to drink, she wasn't used to it....so, it affected her alot worse that it normally would (if she had of been a tee totaler). I believe that JB wet the bed that night, Patsy didn't feel like changing the sheets, or JB's clothes that night...because she was tired and tipsy. She, I think...hit JB's head against the tub...probably even shaking her against it (hitting her head over and over again). She realized that JB was unconscious...and probably even heard her skull crack, and knew that she had done damaged that could not be undone. JB could have even been convulsing....Patsy woke up John, told him what had happened...and that it was an accident...and then the staging began. I believe that the bed sheets were washed and dried that night....probably as the ransom note was being written. (I, at one point, thought that Patsy may have been trying to do JB's hair, because of the way that it was sectioned off in ponytails when her body was found....and JB was tired and didn't feel like having her hair done at 10:00 pm, so she was probably squirming. Patsy got mad, because she thought that JB's hair had to look perfect, because of the trip (notice in her autopsy photos, there are DARK ROOTS...(insert gasping smiley here!), and Patsy just couldn't HAVE that. I remember one time, my mom was doing my hair when I was little, and I wouldn't be still, and she cracked me in the head with the brush...and it HURT!!! I sat still after that.....)

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

doesn't mean she is right...

I would like to go back to those people on SuperDave's list..who allegedly say Jon Benet was abused...say..here's the autopsy results..medical exams before her death and after...take a look at all of it and NOW tell me what you think...and see how many say that she was abused...Would they say they believe she was abused under oath....I would want to feel assured they just didn't say they believed she was abused to seek publicity and/or financial gain for themselves.

 

[santos1014]

I am curious...what exactly do you think happened on that fateful night. Be specific please. Thanks

 

[julianne]

Even if Patsy drank a case of wine that night, I don't see how that gives us the answer that she killed JonBenet or how that can be the "key" to this puzzle. Sure, alcohol changes people, and alters their personality, but even if she was falling down drunk it still doesn't prove anything. Additionally, even IF it proved anything, there is nothing in Patsy's behavior to substantiate any speculation that she drank too much. None of the investigators or anyone else questioned whether she was sober or not, did they? I don't believe I read anything anywhere that stated LE were of the mindset that she was under the influence.

 

[coloradokares]

You know you're accusing Patsy of being an alcoholic, Ames! Admit it, you're clearly implying she was bombed all day every day!

Just kidding, but that whole situation on the other board was ridiculous. I think that was brought up because you'd hit upon something that may very well have been a key in this puzzle - was Patsy's judgment, etc, impaired by drinking that night? Considering her previous health issues and any meds she may have been on, I think that's a valid question, and if she had been drinking, I could see where that would play into what may have happened to JonBenet.

As I've said before, and this is imo, I think the head wound preceeded everything else that happened in regards to JB's murder that night - but my main question is, who incurred the head wound, and why? If Patsy had been drinking and had had more than she ought to have had, then I could definitely see her turning on JB over something and striking her, perhaps even much harder than she meant to. Something to think about....

Yes and if we ever get our special prosecutor or at the least get it all out of the hands of the DA's office out here we could ....at last get our answers. The medical records of both could be at last acquired in full. Since they are both deceased. John can try to block JonBenet's I suppose but I think alot of things will be more clearly understood about that night once we can do a full review of all of the medical records on each. This is only my opinion and its something I want to know.

 

[Ames]

Even if Patsy drank a case of wine that night, I don't see how that gives us the answer that she killed JonBenet or how that can be the "key" to this puzzle. Sure, alcohol changes people, and alters their personality, but even if she was falling down drunk it still doesn't prove anything. Additionally, even IF it proved anything, there is nothing in Patsy's behavior to substantiate any speculation that she drank too much. None of the investigators or anyone else questioned whether she was sober or not, did they? I don't believe I read anything anywhere that stated LE were of the mindset that she was under the influence.

Why did they ask her how much she had to drink, in the interview then...if it didn't matter to them? And why would some of the investigators think that Patsy had a little too much to drink, and got upset at JB for wetting the bed...if her drinking that night didn't matter to them?

 

[Show Me]

I am curious...what exactly do you think happened on that fateful night. Be specific please. Thanks

Yeah me curious too....especially since you don't like our answers.

 

[rashomon]

I think a drunk Patsy would have made it less likey she would have been able to harm her own child and fabricate a story like the one we've been told...

Bed wetting happens all the time ..some children are persistent bedwetters..yet their parents don't kill them.That theory simply doesn't..if you'll pardon the pun..hold water...:laugh:

Patsy needn't have been stone drunk to have snapped and lost it, but is an undisputed fact that alcohol (even small amounts for persons who are very susceptible to its effects) can unleash aggression in people.
It is also a fact that alcohol and other drugs play a huge role in many domestic violence cases, sometimes driving people to do things which they never would have done when sober.

I think Ames' # 201 post on this thread (glad you've come over here on Websleuths, Ames!) is very convincing. Great post, Ames!

Angrywolf: of course bedwetting is widespread and most parents don't harm their children because of that.
But sadly, when children are killed by their parents, it is often bedwetting/soiling issues which triggered parental rage.
At that point in the discussion Ramsey advocates often bring up: "but JB had been a bedwetter for years, so why should Patsy suddenly snap and lose it?"
But those few glasses of wine Patsy had at the Whites' party could just have been the reason for Patsy acting out of character.
Aside from that (I've read this several posts here but don't have the exact source), the Ramsey housekeeper LHP said that Patsy sometimes took JB to the bathroom after such accidents, and that JB screamed in there, so Patsy probably was punishing her.

The dead body was also dressed in far too big (size 12) underpants, which were obviously put on JB after she was dead.
JB's normally wore size 6 panties, but the size 6 panties she wore to the Whites' party have never been found.
So why have these panties been removed by the stagers of the scene? The conclusion one can draw is that they contained forensic evidence.
Suppose it was toilet rage which was at the origin of the tragic events on that night, I believe that it was not only a wetting, but a soiling accident which triggered Patsy's rage.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

some of you only want to go places where you find people who agree with you...:angel:

I think a drunk Patsy would have made it less likey she would have been able to harm her own child and fabricate a story like the one we've been told...

Bed wetting happens all the time ..some children are persistent bedwetters..yet their parents don't kill them.That theory simply doesn't..if you'll pardon the pun..hold water...:laugh:

Let me start by saying - Ames, you aren't missing anything by not being there. I wandered over this morning and it's still all the same people saying the same stuff - like Levin lied about the fiber evidence. They won't see anything they don't agree with. If it weren't for the lurkers that need to hear an RDI pov, I'd never ever go back there again. The stress of dealing with people like shill isn't worth it, for the most part.

I'll go to any JBR board, whether they agree with me or not. The ones who don't are more fun in a way because of the challenge. Isn't that why you like this board, Wolf? Because you want to step up to challenge of making your point and trying to convice others you're right? Sometimes you have to know when to say when - and Ames hit that point. Nothing wrong with that. I hit it around the same time with those folks. There's no reason to have to tolerate personal attacks because someone doesn't agree with you.

I think a drunk Patsy would have been more likely to hit her child in anger - judgment is impaired with alcohol use. Inhibitions are down. How many children have been abused because Mom or Dad was drinking or stoned and didn't have the same amount of control they have when sober? There's a reason there's a high rate of alcoholism and drug use in abusive parents.

Whether she was drunk or not, hitting her own child hard enough to fracture the skull clearly wasn't something Patsy was going to own up to - should she confess to police with the disclaimer of having been drunk, and expect that to get her off?

Please read back through the threads here, Wolf. Not many of us PDI believe JonBenet wetting the bed was the sole reason Patsy may have gone off on her. There were many contributing factors that lead people to believe that perhaps Patsy hit her breaking point and freaked out, causing her daughter's death.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

was Patsy an alcoholic..as some of you want to claim..or simply had too much to drink ? If she had been drunk...the police should have noticed..either through her smell or from her behavior...and the police could have asked for a blood alchohol test to confirm/determine if Patsy had been drinking. Is there any indication any of that happened or was done ? Probably not...:angel:

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

If anything..she seemed to me to be a rather strong woman emotionally..not prone to fracture easily...You guys come up with these ..well..Not to be insulting..but rather lame sounding reasons you think she killed her...but can't back it up with any evidence ..not even with any appearnce of any past bad behavior on Patsy's part...so it seems to me to be little more than an exercise in character assassination...:laugh:

 

[lannie]

Patsy needn't have been stone drunk to have snapped and lost it, but is an undisputed fact that alcohol (even small amounts for persons who are very susceptible to its effects) can unleash aggression in people.
It is also a fact that alcohol and other drugs play a huge role in many domestic violence cases, sometimes driving people to do things which they never would have done when sober.

I think Ames' # 201 post on this thread (glad you've come over here on Websleuths, Ames!) is very convincing. Great post, Ames!

Angrywolf: of course bedwetting is widespread and most parents don't harm their children because of that.
But sadly, when children are killed by their parents, it is often bedwetting/soiling issues which triggered parental rage.
At that point in the discussion Ramsey advocates often bring up: "but JB had been a bedwetter for years, so why should Patsy suddenly snap and lose it?"
But those few glasses of wine Patsy had at the Whites' party could just have been the reason for Patsy acting out of character.
Aside from that (I've read this several posts here but don't have the exact source), the Ramsey housekeeper LHP said that Patsy sometimes took JB to the bathroom after such accidents, and that JB screamed in there, so Patsy probably was punishing her.

The dead body was also dressed in far too big (size 12) underpants, which were obviously put on JB after she was dead.
JB's normally wore size 6 panties, but the size 6 panties she wore to the Whites' party have never been found.
So why have these panties been removed by the stagers of the scene? The conclusion one can draw is that they contained forensic evidence.
Suppose it was toilet rage which was at the origin of the tragic events on that night, I believe that it was not only a wetting, but a soiling accident which triggered Patsy's rage.

Oh ,made me think of something, those size 12 panties may of been the only panties in the house that were new & had no poop stains on them ,, from what I have read ,every pair of panties JB owned were stained or dirity , so that could be why they were found & put on her, matchig the day may of been done to prove that she would wear them ,

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Angrywolf: of course bedwetting is widespread and most parents don't harm their children because of that.
But sadly, when children are killed by their parents, it is often bedwetting/soiling issues which triggered parental rage.
At that point in the discussion Ramsey advocates often bring up: "but JB had been a bedwetter for years, so why should Patsy suddenly snap and lose it?"
But those few glasses of wine Patsy had at the Whites' party could just have been the reason for Patsy acting out of character.

Not only that, but Patsy, known to be obsessed with appearances etc, was nearing her 40th birthday, she was about to make a trip to Michigan that she still needed to pack for (plus Disney cruise plus pageant lined up for right after they got home) - a trip she admitted that she really didn't want to make, the stress of Christmas, the effects her body must still have been feeling after years of cancer and chemo, and then there's JonBenet, who's supposed to be a perfect little princess like Patsy wants her to be but she just won't stop wetting herself and the bed every night....Patsy was packing pull-ups to take on the cruise so JB didn't ruin the bed with her incontinence. I can easily see where a couple of drinks on top of all those stressors combined with needing to pack and prepare and get sleep - interrupted by yet another bedwetting incident - could cause a person to snap and lash out.

Personally, I suspect Patsy had some kind of breakdown due to all the stress and her recent years of poor health, and freaked out on JB. SD's Snow White theory is very plausible in my opinion, as well. Perhaps a bit of both...I don't know. Jayelles said she thinks JonBenet's killer hated her with a passion - I could believe that, and I could believe that person was Patsy. I think she loved JonBenet very much and was very sorry that she was killed, but I think part of her hated JonBenet and was increasingly jealous of her youth, beauty, and the attention that JB was unintentionally stealing from Patsy.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

was Patsy an alcoholic..as some of you want to claim..or simply had too much to drink ? If she had been drunk...the police should have noticed..either through her smell or from her behavior...and the police could have asked for a blood alchohol test to confirm/determine if Patsy had been drinking. Is there any indication any of that happened or was done ? Probably not...:angel:

I don't think anyone thinks Patsy was an alcoholic. I was teasing Ames when I said that, since others accused her of saying that it was speculated that Patsy may have been drinking that night.

How are the police going to tell if Patsy had been drinking the night before when they didn't even see her until 6 am? I don't know about you, but I don't know anyone who stays drunk all night long and into the next morning on a couple of glasses of wine before 10 pm.

Police were told to handle the Rs with special treatment, because they were a wealthy and affluent couple. I'm sure if JR was insulted at the idea of going to the poice station for questioning, he'd have raised hell about being given a BAC test. No, police didn't suspect either of the Rs were drunk that morning...but they did notice Patsy was wearing the same clothes as the night before and it looked like her side of the bed hadn't been slept in, as well as her peeking through her fingers to see if her story was being believed or to see if Officer French thought she was as much of a hottie as she thought she was (LOL, Ames, that had me rolling.)

 

[Nuisanceposter]

If anything..she seemed to me to be a rather strong woman emotionally..not prone to fracture easily...You guys come up with these ..well..Not to be insulting..but rather lame sounding reasons you think she killed her...but can't back it up with any evidence ..not even with any appearnce of any past bad behavior on Patsy's part...so it seems to me to be little more than an exercise in character assassination...:laugh:

Not seeing any past bad behavior on Patsy's part is relative, Wolf. I see her having a past of being controlling, deceitful, way too concerned with appearances and social status, and a neglectful parent who can't be bothered to take the time to parent her kids right.

LHP said both Burke and JonBenet were inconsiderate enough to leave messes wherever they were with no concern for the person who needed to pick up. She hid Burke's knife from him because he would sit and whittle with no care for the shavings being left on the floor. JonBenet would leave clothes and toys dropped wherever she had been and wasn't encouraged to take care of her responsibilities like that herself. There's the stories of JonBenet being mouthy, obstinate...kicking Patsy at a pageant when she was displeased.

There's the whole deal with Jacques and Jacques II, and how Patsy sat and lied about the first dog dying, got a new one, and then sent the dog to live with the Barnhills because he wasn't housebroken and she didn't want to deal with training him or cleaning up his messes.

There's the office party where Patsy insisted on getting up and singing Crazy, despite people thinking she was crazy for it. There's the Atlanta office luncheon, where Patsy spent some $30,000 because she had to have a Gone With The Wind theme, complete with actors playing Scarlett and Rhett. JR said Patsy spent more renovating and redecorating the hellhole house than he spent buying it - and the Parade of Homes Tour, with its eight Christmas trees festooned to the point of being clogged with ornaments - where JR heard people leaving the house complaining of the excess.

And then the child beauty pageants. Nedra Paugh said not doing them was not an option. Patsy spent literally thousands of dollars on costumes and make up and hair and rehearsals and dance and singing lessons...when did JonBenet have time to be a kid with all that? The housekeeper prior to LHP, Linda Wilcox, said JonBenet's schedule was full with that crap when she was only three years old - but like Neddie said, if you don't start them early, they fall miserably behind. We know where Patsy's values came from, hmmm?

I consider all of that to be past bad behavior on Patsy's part - obsessed with appearances and social status and not paying any attention to what really mattered - addressing her daughter's serious urinary health condition took a backseat to the world of pageants and glamour shots and putting up the facade Patsy wanted everyone to see.

 

[coloradokares]

Not seeing any past bad behavior on Patsy's part is relative, Wolf. I see her having a past of being controlling, deceitful, way too concerned with appearances and social status, and a neglectful parent who can't be bothered to take the time to parent her kids right.

LHP said both Burke and JonBenet were inconsiderate enough to leave messes wherever they were with no concern for the person who needed to pick up. She hid Burke's knife from him because he would sit and whittle with no care for the shavings being left on the floor. JonBenet would leave clothes and toys dropped wherever she had been and wasn't encouraged to take care of her responsibilities like that herself. There's the stories of JonBenet being mouthy, obstinate...kicking Patsy at a pageant when she was displeased.

There's the whole deal with Jacques and Jacques II, and how Patsy sat and lied about the first dog dying, got a new one, and then sent the dog to live with the Barnhills because he wasn't housebroken and she didn't want to deal with training him or cleaning up his messes.

There's the office party where Patsy insisted on getting up and singing Crazy, despite people thinking she was crazy for it. There's the Atlanta office luncheon, where Patsy spent some $30,000 because she had to have a Gone With The Wind theme, complete with actors playing Scarlett and Rhett. JR said Patsy spent more renovating and redecorating the hellhole house than he spent buying it - and the Parade of Homes Tour, with its eight Christmas trees festooned to the point of being clogged with ornaments - where JR heard people leaving the house complaining of the excess.

And then the child beauty pageants. Nedra Paugh said not doing them was not an option. Patsy spent literally thousands of dollars on costumes and make up and hair and rehearsals and dance and singing lessons...when did JonBenet have time to be a kid with all that? The housekeeper prior to LHP, Linda Wilcox, said JonBenet's schedule was full with that crap when she was only three years old - but like Neddie said, if you don't start them early, they fall miserably behind. We know where Patsy's values came from, hmmm?

I consider all of that to be past bad behavior on Patsy's part - obsessed with appearances and social status and not paying any attention to what really mattered - addressing her daughter's serious urinary health condition took a backseat to the world of pageants and glamour shots and putting up the facade Patsy wanted everyone to see.

You don't leave me alot to add to this NP. However if my suspicions ever prove out.....Bingo its on!!

 

[santos1014]

.........on your theory of what happened that night.

 

[Show Me]

.........on your theory of what happened that night.

Angrywolf only wants to bash our theories....and hence doesn't give his/her own theory!

Try this santos....bigger, easier to see.

What do you think happened that night Angrywolf?

 

[Ames]

Patsy needn't have been stone drunk to have snapped and lost it, but is an undisputed fact that alcohol (even small amounts for persons who are very susceptible to its effects) can unleash aggression in people.
It is also a fact that alcohol and other drugs play a huge role in many domestic violence cases, sometimes driving people to do things which they never would have done when sober.

I totally agree. I do not think that Patsy was falling down drunk that night, but I do believe that she had enough to alter her personality. My cousin's husband shot and killed her, because of the same reason. He wasn't falling down drunk, but he had been drinking some, she asked him for a divorce...and apparently he didn't want to give her one, so he shot and killed her. People do ALOT of things that they normally wouldn't, when they are under the influence of either pills, alcohol or BOTH...which, could have been the case with Patsy. She may have been taking meds. that weren't supposed to be mixed with alcohol...who knows.

I think Ames' # 201 post on this thread (glad you've come over here on Websleuths, Ames!) is very convincing. Great post, Ames!

Thank you! I am so glad to be over at Websleuths....what a great group of posters....unlike that OTHER place!! LOL

Angrywolf: of course bedwetting is widespread and most parents don't harm their children because of that.
But sadly, when children are killed by their parents, it is often bedwetting/soiling issues which triggered parental rage.
At that point in the discussion Ramsey advocates often bring up: "but JB had been a bedwetter for years, so why should Patsy suddenly snap and lose it?"
But those few glasses of wine Patsy had at the Whites' party could just have been the reason for Patsy acting out of character.
Aside from that (I've read this several posts here but don't have the exact source), the Ramsey housekeeper LHP said that Patsy sometimes took JB to the bathroom after such accidents, and that JB screamed in there, so Patsy probably was punishing her.

I have also read that the housekeeper said that Patsy sometimes took JB to the bathroom after her accidents, and that she could hear screaming from JB and yelling from Patsy. What was that poor child going through??

The dead body was also dressed in far too big (size 12) underpants, which were obviously put on JB after she was dead.
JB's normally wore size 6 panties, but the size 6 panties she wore to the Whites' party have never been found.
So why have these panties been removed by the stagers of the scene? The conclusion one can draw is that they contained forensic evidence.
Suppose it was toilet rage which was at the origin of the tragic events on that night, I believe that it was not only a wetting, but a soiling accident which triggered Patsy's rage.

I believe that Patsy told John where to find some clean panties, and that he just grabbed and opened a pack of new ones (my guess is because the new ones didn't have urine or fecal stains on them), not realizing that they were way too big, and probably at that point, not caring...either. I think that HE is the one that placed the too big panties on her...(being a man, no offense to the men out there, but he probably didn't even pay too much attention to the size). I agree that JB probably had a soiling accident as well, and Patsy just flew into an alcohol induced rage, that she probably wouldn't have been thrown into, IF it hadn't of been for those drinks that she had at the White's party. IMO

 

[santos1014]

Angrywolf only wants to bash our theories....and hence doesn't give his/her own theory!

Try this santos....bigger, easier to see.

What do you think happened that night Angrywolf?

:angel: Thanks Show.