Sexual behavior - Merged and Closed

[LionRun]

gives a false impression of guilt . The Boulder DA has said they aren't the focus of the investigation. You can make your own mind about what that means.
When the discussion involves speculation about what somebody said not being what they ..the poster..would have said in that situation...a socalled Patsyism...one poster called it...and insinuations that their behavior..simply because the poster didn't like it and views it with suspicion..implies guilt...makes me wonder if it is a discussion....or a verdict in the mind of someone who isn't interested in any reasonable evaluation...or look at the facts of the case....but simply people interested only in pronouncing sentance. Patsy Ramsey isn't around to defend herself anymore..some people still seem to only want to beat up on her even though they know she isn't here....so I don't see any justice in it for the Ramsey family.Maybe some people think they are seeking justice for Jon Benet....they're really only messaging their own egos.."tripping out...in my view. So I don't see much of a real discussion from those who believe Patsy is guilty.

Until I joined this forum, and then began looking up tings like the ransom note and autopsy everything I heard about the murder of JonBenet I heard and read on TV and news or magazine articles. From the beginning, as I stated before in a thread (can't remember which one), I have always thought that the Ramseys had nothing to do with it.
From the beginning, when I saw a video of Patsy being questioned by police early on, for example. I thought she behaved as an innocent person.

But, I am also an open-minded person. I want to know the facts of the case before I dare make my own final personal decision. That may never even happen. When I say, "I think", or "I thought" those are my ideas. I do not know enough about the facts to make a concrete decision though.

I am trying now, years late, to obtain as much info as I can. I am more interested in reading actual reports, facts, and interviews (i.e. autopsy, ransom note, interviews of Ramseys, police, etc.., and complete reports by all persons directly involved with the case.). This will help me to make an objective decision, if it can even be done at this point.

Does anyone out there have links to original reports/interviews? I have access to the autopsy and ransom note. Is there anything else I can look up? Thank you to all who have helped me to catch up thus far.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

I wish more people who are convinced the Ramseys are guilty would look at the evidence and let the evidence lead them to an opinion..rather than already have an opinion..that Patsy murdered Jon Benet and try to fit the facts..and some rather inane suspicions...to it to prove it.
True..the investigation seems to be in limbo..but we aren't privy to what they are doing...the DAs investigators and the PIs helping them. The fact it seems to be in limbo..or may be in limbo..shoudn't be used to imply that Patsy must have killed Jon Benet.
As far as the interviews...rather than just jumping to conclusions or making assumptions lets look at what was actually said and done. All I see from some of you are accusations. I have seen at least one interview..exerpts of it on tv...Patsy being interviewed separately from John..both of them being grilled..An obvious attempt by the Boulder PD to get them to confess. They didn't confess. Sorry if that disappoints some of you. Law enforcement people don't always tell the truth about such matters...certainly the Boulder PD botched the case and engaged in CYA so what really happened should be looked at.
I am not an attorney. I am a lab person. Maybe I'll get the chance to work in a forensic lab someday. :dance: I have met John Douglas..the former FBI profiler..He gave a speech in Nashville last year and talked about the case.He doesn't believe the Ramseys did it either.I also met the current head of the Memphis FBI office..she is a friend of Douglas from back when he was in the FBI. I also met the current TBI director. So true crime has become a hobby of mine. I am interested in a case here in Knoxville, the Johnia Berry case.You can read about it and what I say about it in the Johnia Berry thread. So I'm just like the rest of you. Nothing special.:doh:

 

[LionRun]

I wish more people who are convinced the Ramseys are guilty would look at the evidence and let the evidence lead them to an opinion..

That is what I am trying to do. It is sure not easy though, because it has been so long since JBR's death, and most people have opinions by now.

AngryWolf, do you or does anyone know how I can look into actual evidence like I described in my previous post? I've googled; but, maybe I'm not googling so well. Thanks much.

Also, has any profiler (i.e. John Douglas) ever profiled concerning the traits of the killer? If so, where can I find that info? That would be interesting in deed.

 

[Sheromom]

About all the Doctor's calls/visits. It seems to me that if I were sexually abusing my daughter or knew someone else was and wanted to cover for them, I would NOT be taking my daughter to the Doctor to be treated for vaginitis. That Patsy was so willing to take JonBenet in for treatment tends to imply that she didn't know anything unusual was happening.


I worked in a first grade classroom where one of the boys soiled himself nearly once a week. A year or so later, I mentioned this child to the teacher. Her response was that she didn't remember him doing it. I thought THAT was strange but she said that so many of them do it at that age that she doesn't always remember who they are. So perhaps it isn't all that uncommon? Mine (and I have four) were potty trained by two and wiped themselves by four. I NEVER remember any of the students asking for help wiping; not even the little guy who always soiled himself and had to be sent home.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

Pediatricians are on the lookout ..so as to speak..for signs of sexual abuse....as are ER doctors for that matter..in children..and must report it when they see it. We ..my facility..get involved in confirming cases..I can't talk about the details...but we help confirm cases like that..so the doctors can report them to law enforcement. And there are signs ...impossible for someone to hide if abuse was ongoing..so if Patsy knew she wouldn't have been taking Jon Benet to the doctor who would have detected it and reported it.
In his presentation in Nashville Douglas discussed why he believes the Ramseys are innocent.You might find more at his website....
You can go to court tv.com crime library and read about the case.They probably have the most accurate information. Plus there have been a couple of court tv documentaries about the case.There may be transcripts there of those shows.:blowkiss: :clap:

 

[icedtea4me]

And there are signs ...impossible for someone to hide if abuse was ongoing..

What if the child was made to perform the sexual acts on the abuser?


-Tea

 

[julianne]

What if the child was made to perform the sexual acts on the abuser?


-Tea

But isn't the whole premise of those that think the Ramseys did it that JonBenet was the one the acts were performed upon?

 

[LionRun]

Earlier I expressed in previous posts that I wanted to find original reports and factual evidence concerning the JonBenet case. I started searching a bit ago and included 1996 and 1997. Among the countless things that came up I read this first

http://www.cnn.com/US/9701/22/ramsey/index.html



I noted immediately upon reading that this article though written just shortly after JBR"s death contained a huge error. The basement is described as a windowless basement. We know that is not true. Over the years some facts may actually be clarified; but, no doubt some statements based on speculation, opinion, or even fact may have gone through one too many games of telephone. Now that I am looking at the original reports (i.e. autopsy, ransom note), and interviews and articles beginning almost from the date that poor girl was murdered I think I may gain a better understanding of the case.

Since the murder has not been solved legally, want to go back to the beginning, and gather information based on facts, then the early reports/ articles and work my way forward. Isn't that what cold case detectives do when they first re-open a case? Sometimes, an overlooked or too readily dismissed suspect, piece of evidence, or aspects of a case can shed new light and aid in solving a case. It may lead to one or the other of the Ramsey's. But, it may lead to someone else. Sadly, we may never know. But, boy this case has volumes of stuff to sift through. I might finish reading through everything in my future nursing home days.

I haven't been on this forum for very long, and I want to thank all of you for being welcoming, and helpful. I hate the crimes; but, I sure do like to try and solve them. Have a wonderful New Year!

 

[Jayelles]

But isn't the whole premise of those that think the Ramseys did it that JonBenet was the one the acts were performed upon?

It is certainly the opinion of some of the experts who were consulted. As is often the case, the experts are not in agreement.

There are some people who believe that Jonbenet was being abused by a family member and that she was murdered as a consequence of this. There are other people who believe that she was being abused by a family friend - and that she was murdered as a consequence.

 

[Jayelles]

Earlier I expressed in previous posts that I wanted to find original reports and factual evidence concerning the JonBenet case. I started searching a bit ago and included 1996 and 1997. Among the countless things that came up I read this first

http://www.cnn.com/US/9701/22/ramsey/index.html



I noted immediately upon reading that this article though written just shortly after JBR"s death contained a huge error. The basement is described as a windowless basement. We know that is not true. Over the years some facts may actually be clarified; but, no doubt some statements based on speculation, opinion, or even fact may have gone through one too many games of telephone. Now that I am looking at the original reports (i.e. autopsy, ransom note), and interviews and articles beginning almost from the date that poor girl was murdered I think I may gain a better understanding of the case.

Since the murder has not been solved legally, want to go back to the beginning, and gather information based on facts, then the early reports/ articles and work my way forward. Isn't that what cold case detectives do when they first re-open a case? Sometimes, an overlooked or too readily dismissed suspect, piece of evidence, or aspects of a case can shed new light and aid in solving a case. It may lead to one or the other of the Ramsey's. But, it may lead to someone else. Sadly, we may never know. But, boy this case has volumes of stuff to sift through. I might finish reading through everything in my future nursing home days.

I haven't been on this forum for very long, and I want to thank all of you for being welcoming, and helpful. I hate the crimes; but, I sure do like to try and solve them. Have a wonderful New Year!

Two excellent sites for resources and documents:-

www.acandyrose.com
http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/

 

[Jayelles]

I wish more people who are convinced the Ramseys are guilty would look at the evidence and let the evidence lead them to an opinion..rather than already have an opinion..that Patsy murdered Jon Benet and try to fit the facts..and some rather inane suspicions...to it to prove it.
True..the investigation seems to be in limbo..but we aren't privy to what they are doing...the DAs investigators and the PIs helping them. The fact it seems to be in limbo..or may be in limbo..shoudn't be used to imply that Patsy must have killed Jon Benet.
As far as the interviews...rather than just jumping to conclusions or making assumptions lets look at what was actually said and done. All I see from some of you are accusations. I have seen at least one interview..exerpts of it on tv...Patsy being interviewed separately from John..both of them being grilled..An obvious attempt by the Boulder PD to get them to confess. They didn't confess. Sorry if that disappoints some of you. Law enforcement people don't always tell the truth about such matters...certainly the Boulder PD botched the case and engaged in CYA so what really happened should be looked at.
I am not an attorney. I am a lab person. Maybe I'll get the chance to work in a forensic lab someday. :dance: I have met John Douglas..the former FBI profiler..He gave a speech in Nashville last year and talked about the case.He doesn't believe the Ramseys did it either.I also met the current head of the Memphis FBI office..she is a friend of Douglas from back when he was in the FBI. I also met the current TBI director. So true crime has become a hobby of mine. I am interested in a case here in Knoxville, the Johnia Berry case.You can read about it and what I say about it in the Johnia Berry thread. So I'm just like the rest of you. Nothing special.:doh:

I think it's very insulting to suggest that anyone who thinks the Ramseys are guilty hasn't looked at the evidence. Instead of continually complaining about people who think PDI or JDI, why don't you point out the errors of their conclusions using facts and sources?

This is an emotional case but it is a sad FACT that her parents have not been cleared as suspects. Whilst I don't think they killed their daughter, I wouldn't give them a "pass" based upon no more than emotion and gut feeling. We owe it to JonBenet to keep an open mind about who killed her and anyone who is *truly* seeking justice for this murdered child will do just that. There have been many, many sad cases of child abuse where the child wasn't believed - the confidante simply couldn't accept that the abuser could do such a thing and in many cases, the abuse continued until the child was either old enough to leave of his/her own accord or found another confidante who was willing to listen and keep an open mind.

This case will never be solved as long as people allow their emotions to cloud their judgement.

 

[LionRun]

Two excellent sites for resources and documents:-

www.acandyrose.com
http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/

Thankyou for the links Jayelles. I had previously been referred to acandyrose, but the other link is new to me.

There is years of reading I expect. One million words at a time, and by this time next year I might be 1/3 of the way through if I'm lucky.

 

[lannie]

I wish more people who are convinced the Ramseys are guilty would look at the evidence and let the evidence lead them to an opinion..

That is what I am trying to do. It is sure not easy though, because it has been so long since JBR's death, and most people have opinions by now.

AngryWolf, do you or does anyone know how I can look into actual evidence like I described in my previous post? I've googled; but, maybe I'm not googling so well. Thanks much.

Also, has any profiler (i.e. John Douglas) ever profiled concerning the traits of the killer? If so, where can I find that info? That would be interesting in deed.

You ask for actual evidence ,then you ask for profiler (i.e. John Douglas ??

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

Jay.I think your emotional response proves my point. The people who want to believe Patsy and the other Ramseys are guilty want to act emotionally...act like they're seeking justice for Jon Benet..like they are somehow defending that poor child..and the rest of us are somehow slackers..or don't care about justice for Jon Benet..or for other murdered children. And no, I don't believe the people who point the finger at Patsy/John/or their son have looked at the evidence. I think they're looking at the usual LE theory..that says you look at the parents first....Compare the Jon Benet case to the Polly Klass case.The police had Marc Klass under suspicion .If the police hadn't found Richard Allen Davis Marc Klass would still be under suspcion..and people like you Jay..would say he might have killed Polly, because the police haven't "cleared him".

 

[Jayelles]

You ask for actual evidence ,then you ask for profiler (i.e. John Douglas ??

As far as I am aware, John Douglas has not profiled the killer - certainly not using his normal techniques.

He interviewed John Ramsey and then brought Patsy Ramsey into the interview. He didn't interview them separately.

In essence, Douglas did not stick to his usual "formula" and therefore, one has difficulty in evaluating the worth of his opinions in this case. His peers have also been critical of him in this case. It should also be noted that he was hired by the Ramseys when he did the above.

I believe that the killer was profiled by another FBI guy whose name escapes me. I think profiling is interesting but would be wary of depending soley upon it.

The only real evidence in the case was the ransom note, the garotte, duct tape etc and probably the animal hairs found in her hand (if this is indeed the case as the source is not 100% credible). Everything else is subject to doubt and whereas it shouldn't be discounted, neither should it be taken as gospel.

 

[Jayelles]

Jay.I think your emotional response proves my point. The people who want to believe Patsy and the other Ramseys are guilty want to act emotionally...act like they're seeking justice for Jon Benet..like they are somehow defending that poor child..and the rest of us are somehow slackers..or don't care about justice for Jon Benet..or for other murdered children. And no, I don't believe the people who point the finger at Patsy/John/or their son have looked at the evidence. I think they're looking at the usual LE theory..that says you look at the parents first....Compare the Jon Benet case to the Polly Klass case.The police had Marc Klass under suspicion .If the police hadn't found Richard Allen Davis Marc Klass would still be under suspcion..and people like you Jay..would say he killed Polly.

Instead of telling me that my response was emotional, how about explaining in what way it was emotional. I don't think it was emotional - I stated only facts.

Instead of continually accusing people of not looking at the evidence, how about doing some real debate and pointing out why their opinions are flawed.

Tell us what evidence we haven't looked at.

It's very easy to make post after post telling people that they aren't looking at the evidence, but I've yet to see one post where you actually debate the facts. I once posted the results of an experiment on another forum and a member there told me that my logic was flawed. Despite me asking/begging her 6-8 times to explain, she refused. It's very easy to say that someone is wrong or biased, but if you don't back your criticisms up with explanations, then I'm afraid no-one will take you seriously.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

among the former FBI profilers...and people like Pat Brown. They get asked questions by the media and appear on court/trial/homicide related tv shows..they write books and perform speaking engagements. So there's alot of rivalry going on. So some of the criticism Douglas received from his peers may have been influenced by that.
Douglas was called before the Jon Benet Grand Jury. I don't know if the transcripts of the grand jury were ever released.Here are some more Jon Benet related documents that may prove useful to anybody researching:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Legal%20Documents

 

[Jayelles]

among the former FBI profilers...and people like Pat Brown. They get asked questions by the media and appear on court/trial/homicide related tv shows..they write books and perform speaking engagements. So there's alot of rivalry going on. So some of the criticism Douglas received from his peers may have been influenced by that.
Douglas was called before the Jon Benet Grand Jury. I don't know if the transcripts of the grand jury were ever released.Here are some more Jon Benet related documents that may prove useful to anybody researching:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Legal%20Documents

No. Profiling may be a soft science, but it is a science and not just based upon hunches and gut feelings. Profilers draw upon a knowledge base of previous crimes and statistics and they apply tried and trusted interview techniques. Douglas was criticised because he didn't follow the formula in the Ramsey case. He wasn't working for the investigators and would therefore not have had access to the police files.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

so you can take me seriously..or not. Your choice. To do as you ask I would have to go back and read everything all the Patsy haters..as well as those who have accused John or the son..Burke....have written..not just here but on every board I can find... and then try to refute all of them. Obviously I don't have the time to do that.
I don't come here to gain anybody's approval. I don't need anybody's approval.
Let me tell you something about me and my life.

My uncle was murdered when I was..oh 7 or 8 years old.I came into the room as they were wiping his blood off the floor.

I found my aunt Sam lying dead on the ground outside her home.

My father died of cancer when I was 17 years old.

My wife died of a heart attack while I was at work. I have our two children to raise.

My mom died of cancer.I was on my way to the hospital to see her but got there too late.

I don't want anybody's sympathy.Likewise I don't care what others think about me. There's an unsolved murder case here in Knoxville I am involved with..in supporting that family..you can read more about it at www.johniaberry.org. I would like to help that family. there's nothing I can do to help Jon Benet or the Ramsey family...other than oppose those who want to make baseless claims of guilt against Patsy.Patsy is gone..She can no longer defend herself. So I'm not going to let people make baseless claims against her and the rest of the family unchallenged. Sorry Jay, if you don't like that.:bang:

 

[Jayelles]

Jay.I think your emotional response proves my point. The people who want to believe Patsy and the other Ramseys are guilty want to act emotionally...act like they're seeking justice for Jon Benet..like they are somehow defending that poor child..and the rest of us are somehow slackers..or don't care about justice for Jon Benet..or for other murdered children. And no, I don't believe the people who point the finger at Patsy/John/or their son have looked at the evidence. I think they're looking at the usual LE theory..that says you look at the parents first....Compare the Jon Benet case to the Polly Klass case.The police had Marc Klass under suspicion .If the police hadn't found Richard Allen Davis Marc Klass would still be under suspcion..and people like you Jay..would say he might have killed Polly, because the police haven't "cleared him".

I'd like to add that I think your statement which I highlighted above is unusual to say the least. Please tell me how it is "acting" like you want to see justice for a murdered child by REFUSING to give a free pass to suspects who cannot be cleared by the evidence?

Of COURSE they are looking at the statistical evidence used by the FBI and every other law enforcement agency in the civilised world which says look at the parents first! I fail to see what is wrong with that. It seems utterly logical to me.

I think it is emotional to look at the Ramsey parents and decide that they seem like nice people who wouldn't do a thing like this, so let's not bother investigating them and let's attack anyone who still wants to do things by the book.