Sexual behavior - Merged and Closed

[ANGRYWOLF]

nobody said anything about a free pass.But the police shouldn't have tunnelvision either. I notice you avoided responding to me when I mentioned Marc Klass. An example of the parent who didn't do it. There are lots of other cases where the parent didn't do it. The Boulder PD never bothered to investigate any other possibilities.Never even tried. If Polly had been murdered in Boulder Marc Klass would have been treated just like the Ramseys.:laugh: and you know it.

 

[Jayelles]

so you can take me seriously..or not. Your choice. To do as you ask I would have to go back and read everything all the Patsy haters..as well as those who have accused John or the son..Burke....have written..not just here but on every board I can find... and then try to refute all of them. Obviously I don't have the time to do that.
I don't come here to gain anybody's approval. I don't need anybody's approval.
Let me tell you something about me and my life.

My uncle was murdered when I was..oh 7 or 8 years old.I came into the room as they were wiping his blood off the floor.

I found my aunt Sam lying dead on the ground outside her home.

My father died of cancer when I was 17 years old.

My wife died of a heart attack while I was at work. I have our two children to raise.

My mom died of cancer.I was on my way to the hospital to see her but got there too late.

I don't want anybody's sympathy.Likewise I don't care what others think about me. There's an unsolved murder case here in Knoxville I am involved with..in supporting that family..you can read more about it at www.johniaberry.org. I would like to help that family. there's nothing I can do to help Jon Benet or the Ramsey family...other than oppose those who want to make baseless claims of guilt against Patsy.Patsy is gone..She can no longer defend herself. So I'm not going to let people make baseless claims against her and the rest of the family unchallenged. Sorry Jay, if you don't like that.:bang:

I'm sorry for your troubles AngryWolf, but at the same time, respectfully, it has nothing to do with what I am saying.

If you are unwilling to cite examples to back up your accusations against what basically amounts to the majority of posters here, that stop making them. It's unfair and is not conducive to intelligent debate. Like it or not, the majority of posters still thnk the Ramseys are involved in their daughter's death. That is DESPITE all of the pro-Ramsey documentaries and propaganda which we've seen in recent years. The thing people cannot get past is the Ramsey's lack of useful co-operation in the crucial early days of the investigation and ... the hard evidence (which does NOT exclude the Ramseys).

No-one will help the Ramseys by opposing the PDI posters if all they're going to do is accuse the PDIs of being "emotional" and "not looking at the evidence". If you believe there is evidence of her innocence then use it in rational debate against the PDI posters.

The fact is:-

Statistically, parents are the most likely perps
The Ramseys refused police interviews and polygraphs
The stungun is NOT a fact
The DNA might NOT be the killer's
Fibres found in the garotte are consistent with Patsy's clothes
Patsy cannot be exlcuded as the writer of the ransom note
etc

Like them or not, these are facts and they are the reasons why the Ramseys cannot be excluded as suspects. Please don't insult anyone who refuses to ignore the above by calling them "emotional" or "acting" like they are looking for justice for JonBenet or "not looking at the evidence. It's because they ARE looking at the evidence that they aren't giving the Ramseys are pass.

 

[Jayelles]

nobody said anything about a free pass.But the police shouldn't have tunnelvision either. I notice you avoided responding to me when I mentioned Marc Klass. An example of the parent who didn't do it. There are lots of other cases where the parent didn't do it. The Boulder PD never bothered to investigate any other possibilities.Never even tried. If Polly had been murdered in Boulder Marc Klass would have been treated just like the Ramseys.:laugh: and you know it.

First of all, I don't know anything about the Klass case.

Only the Ramseys have accused the police of having tunnel vision - BECAUSE they persisted in trying to investigate the Ramseys when the Ramseys were refusing to be interviewed. The statistics are out there (I don't have them to hand). Many, many people were investigated. The police investigation spanned several states. That they only looked at the Ramseys is a tired, worn out piece of pro-Ramsey propaganda. Sorry.

 

[lannie]

As far as I am aware, John Douglas has not profiled the killer - certainly not using his normal techniques.

He interviewed John Ramsey and then brought Patsy Ramsey into the interview. He didn't interview them separately.

In essence, Douglas did not stick to his usual "formula" and therefore, one has difficulty in evaluating the worth of his opinions in this case. His peers have also been critical of him in this case. It should also be noted that he was hired by the Ramseys when he did the above.

I believe that the killer was profiled by another FBI guy whose name escapes me. I think profiling is interesting but would be wary of depending soley upon it.

The only real evidence in the case was the ransom note, the garotte, duct tape etc and probably the animal hairs found in her hand (if this is indeed the case as the source is not 100% credible). Everything else is subject to doubt and whereas it shouldn't be discounted, neither should it be taken as gospel.

Thank you Jay for saying it better than I could,John Douglas has nothing to offer other than his opinions, Angeywolf you criticise people here for being emotional & that is not true, as for me I have let the facts lead me to my conclusions,& in my humble opinion the Rams are covering up most of the facts in this case,& that leads me to beleive they know who killed their child, (JB,)The first one was the fact that they stated they let BURK sleep all morning with out awaking him to see if he know where his sister was or if he had heard something, that statement of theirs is insane,!!So if you want to beleive opinions from profilers who won't even address this fact,stop please & look at the facts as the Rams give them to you at every turn in this case, the fact that they could not decide if they had put her stright to bed asleep or if John read to her, the rams gave us there also ,& so many more, this thread is about abuse ,are you just trying to muddy the water??

 

[lannie]

so you can take me seriously..or not. Your choice. To do as you ask I would have to go back and read everything all the Patsy haters..as well as those who have accused John or the son..Burke....have written..not just here but on every board I can find... and then try to refute all of them. Obviously I don't have the time to do that.
I don't come here to gain anybody's approval. I don't need anybody's approval.
Let me tell you something about me and my life.

My uncle was murdered when I was..oh 7 or 8 years old.I came into the room as they were wiping his blood off the floor.

I found my aunt Sam lying dead on the ground outside her home.

My father died of cancer when I was 17 years old.

My wife died of a heart attack while I was at work. I have our two children to raise.

My mom died of cancer.I was on my way to the hospital to see her but got there too late.

I don't want anybody's sympathy.Likewise I don't care what others think about me. There's an unsolved murder case here in Knoxville I am involved with..in supporting that family..you can read more about it at www.johniaberry.org. I would like to help that family. there's nothing I can do to help Jon Benet or the Ramsey family...other than oppose those who want to make baseless claims of guilt against Patsy.Patsy is gone..She can no longer defend herself. So I'm not going to let people make baseless claims against her and the rest of the family unchallenged. Sorry Jay, if you don't like that.:bang:

WOW you realy are emotional,we all have pain from the past ,but to write it out there for all to see, shows you do not have proper bounderies ,& are not thinking this clearly, I could just as easely be defending Patsy ,if only the facts were there to defend her with .What facts do you have to present othe than your emotional statements??

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

just the opinions some of you have that the Ramseys are guilty and you're trying to fit the facts to your opinions rather than let the facts lead you to a conclusion.
It's untrue to say the Ramseys refused interviews.I have seen interviews.The police were trying to get them to confess and they didn't. After being through that it wouldn't surprise me for them to refuse further interviews..to be continually put through the wriinger and accused of killing their own daughter. Would any of you want to keep going through that ? I doubt it.
I told somethings about my background because Jay saw fit to question it. I hope I have proven I don't need anybody's approval on this board.I don't post here..or anywhere else..to curry favor with anybody.
As far as John Douglas, some of you now want to attack his credibility simply because his views..backed by his years of experience...don't jive with those of you who have never investigated a homicide case. Any homicide cases. I find that amusing.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

you need to tell me where you received your degree in psychology/psychiatry before you try to psychoanalyze me.:innocent:

There's very little clear thinking going on where people are so clearly prejudicial in their thinking about Patsy/John and Burke..and now I guess some of you want to jump to some conclusions about me.:waitasec:

Then so be it....

 

[Jayelles]

just the opinions some of you have that the Ramseys are guilty and you're trying to fit the facts to your opinions rather than let the facts lead you to a conclusion.
It's untrue to say the Ramseys refused interviews.I have seen interviews.The police were trying to get them to confess and they didn't. After being through that it wouldn't surprise me for them to refuse further interviews..to be continually put through the wriinger and accused of killing their own daughter. Would any of you want to keep going through that ? I doubt it.
I told somethings about my background because Jay saw fit to question it. I hope I have proven I don't need anybody's approval on this board.I don't post here..or anywhere else..to curry favor with anybody.
As far as John Douglas, some of you now want to attack his credibility simply because his views..backed by his years of experience...don't jive with those of you who have never investigated a homicide case. Any homicide cases. I find that amusing.

I Beg your pardon. I most certainly did not question your background! I merely asked you to back up your accusations with some solid reasoning and that failure to do so would result in your criticisms not being taken seriously.

 

[Jayelles]

you need to tell me where you received your degree in psychology/psychiatry before you try to psychoanalyze me.:innocent:

There's very little clear thinking going on where people are so clearly prejudicial in their thinking about Patsy/John and Burke..and now I guess some of you want to jump to some conclusions about me.:waitasec:

Then so be it....

You are doing it again. You are attacking people for having a particular POV without giving any sold reasoning as to why they are wrong. Are you trying to disrupt this board?

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

I guess anybody who disagrees with you could be accused of that in your eyes...

Well rather than this back and forth let's look at the case for a moment shall we ?

Let's use the court tv.com investigative analysis.If you would prefer to use something else let me know.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html

as you can see the police made several critical mistakes. You can read about what those were..then we can discuss them if you are serious about discussing the facts of the case.

The Boulder PD investigated ..on average..about 5 homicides a year. I looked that up some time back because it's comperable to the Knox County Sheriff's department and the case I am involved with here. Not very many.I feel reasonably sure that lack of experience led to their errors/mistakes.
So let's have a discussion.I am willing..from the very beginning...then let whoever chooses to follow along judge who is being disruptive friend...

 

[Jayelles]

I guess anybody who disagrees with you could be accused of that in your eyes...

Well rather than this back and forth let's look at the case for a moment shall we ?

Let's use the court tv.com investigative analysis.If you would prefer to use something else let me know.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html

as you can see the police made several critical mistakes. You can read about what those were..then we can discuss them if you are serious about discussing the facts of the case.

The Boulder PD investigated ..on average..about 5 homicides a year. I looked that up some time back because it's comperable to the Knox County Sheriff's department and the case I am involved with here. Not very many.I feel reasonably sure that lack of experience led to their errors/mistakes.
So let's have a discussion.I am willing..from the very beginning...then let whoever chooses to follow along judge who is being disruptive friend...

Oh no. I don't need to re-read the case in order to discuss it with you AngryWolf. You are the person who is making unsubstantiated and offensive accusations. So let's start with your accusations. You said that people who think that PDI haven't looked at the evidence.

Tell us what evidence exonerates Patsy Ramsey completely so that we can see how the PDIs have got it all wrong.

What is it that they have all missed?

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

you have the American legal system backwards.But then..you aren't American.You live in the UK..so I guess that explains it....
I don't have to prove Patsy, John and Burke innocent.You have to prove them guilty beyond a "reasonable doubt". Any criminal defense attorney or prosecutor would tell you that means there needs to be at least a 90 % chance they killed Jon Benet...as opposed to the greater than 50% chance for civil matters...the "by a preponderance of the evidence standard"..or the "clear and convincing standard" used in constitutional law. So you..YOU FRIEND...have to prove the Ramseys killed Jon Benet....based on ..smile....the case evidence. So where's the evidence..other than your suspicions and accusation. Maybe you DO need to reread the case.:bang:

 

[Jayelles]

you have the American legal system backwards.But then..you aren't American.You live in the UK..so I guess that explains it....
I don't have to prove Patsy, John and Burke innocent.You have to prove them guilty beyond a "reasonable doubt". Any criminal defense attorney or prosecutor would tell you that means there needs to be at least a 90 % chance they killed Jon Benet...as opposed to the greater than 50% chance for civil matters...the "by a preponderance of the evidence standard"..or the "clear and convincing standard" used in constitutional law. So you..YOU FRIEND...have to prove the Ramseys killed Jon Benet....based on ..smile....the case evidence. So where's the evidence..other than your suspicions and accusation. Maybe you DO need to reread the case.:bang:

You got one thing right in your post - I'm not American.

OK, so you want to play semantics. Let's try this.... "friend" ... You have ACCUSED many if not most of the members here of not looking at the evidence. Don't you have to prove that beyond reasonable doubt? Come on ... "friend" .... put your money where your mouth is and tell us why they are wrong. On what grounds do you accuse them of not looking at the evidence. What evidence have they not looked at?

It's really a very simple question - unless you don't know the answer "friend".

 

[julianne]

WOW you realy are emotional,we all have pain from the past ,but to write it out there for all to see, shows you do not have proper bounderies ,& are not thinking this clearly, I could just as easely be defending Patsy ,if only the facts were there to defend her with .What facts do you have to present othe than your emotional statements??

With all due respect, I believe you are way off base to make the statement that Angrywolf doesn't have proper boundaries. You state this simply because he wrote some information on his background with regards to losing family members??? I don't believe ANYONE here has a right to inform others what is proper with respect to their "boundaries" and whether or not they have overstepped them.

Many times on this board people have written personal accounts of devastating issues that have transpired in their lives. I have never seen anyone chastised and judged for doing so like you just did. To state that someone isn't "thinking clearly" simply because they wrote of some devastating things that have happened in their life is an unworthy, unsubstantiated and undeserved insult, to say the very least. This forum has been used by many posters to post of personal strife & I just don't see how you have any right or business in responding to such by saying that they aren't clear-headed.

Someones boundaries are THEIR own, and THEY decide where those boundaries begin and end....no one else does.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

As far as Jay, I haven't accused most of this board of anything...just some of you who expressed conviction that the Ramseys killed their own daughter.....not based upon any facts but just your conviction....sorry that bothers you Jay...I remember you....I think I use to read your postings on courttv.com. I thought your comments were very inciteful. Maybe things have changed for you since I use to read those comments.Maybe you've had something affect you....or maybe ..like I have said..you feel Jon Benet needs a zealous defender. I have kids. I 've read so many cases about murdered children in the news I am sick of all of it.I hate those killings.I wish they had never happened.I want justice for those children..for those families...but only based upon facts not suspicions and innuendo. :truce:

 

[IrishMist]

As far as Jay, I haven't accused most of this board of anything...just some of you who expressed conviction that the Ramseys killed their own daughter.....not based upon any facts but just your conviction....sorry that bothers you Jay...I remember you....I think I use to read your postings on courttv.com. I thought your comments were very inciteful. Maybe things have changed for you since I use to read those comments.Maybe you've had something affect you....or maybe ..like I have said..you feel Jon Benet needs a zealous defender. I have kids. I 've read so many cases about murdered children in the news I am sick of all of it.I hate those killings.I wish they had never happened.I want justice for those children..for those families...but only based upon facts not suspicions and innuendo. :truce:

Unfortunately, we are not in a court of law. None of the principles are under oath. And all we have is the information we have. I, for one, would love more (actually ALL) of the information, i.e., pictures from the party; Fleet White's notes; anything else that's been kept back from the public.

As it stands right now with the information at hand, I can easily see why so many people find the R's to be guilty. It would be nice if someone who felt them to be innocent would clearly state their reasons for believing so.

I am just chiming in here, due to my interest in the case, but I do want to add that in all the years I've been reading Jayelle's posts, she has always been a calm and informed poster. Not one to stir things up, or attack another poster. I think it's more along the lines of not wanting to give the R's a free pass, and an understanding of why they do appear to be guilty in so many ways. If IRC, I don't think she believes the R's to be guilty of this crime.

 

[lannie]

With all due respect, I believe you are way off base to make the statement that Angrywolf doesn't have proper boundaries. You state this simply because he wrote some information on his background with regards to losing family members??? I don't believe ANYONE here has a right to inform others what is proper with respect to their "boundaries" and whether or not they have overstepped them.

Many times on this board people have written personal accounts of devastating issues that have transpired in their lives. I have never seen anyone chastised and judged for doing so like you just did. To state that someone isn't "thinking clearly" simply because they wrote of some devastating things that have happened in their life is an unworthy, unsubstantiated and undeserved insult, to say the very least. This forum has been used by many posters to post of personal strife & I just don't see how you have any right or business in responding to such by saying that they aren't clear-headed.

Someones boundaries are THEIR own, and THEY decide where those boundaries begin and end....no one else does.

Why can't you answer the question? what facts do you have that Patsy is not covering up for someone for harmed her daugther?

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

back when I use to read her postings on courttv.com.That was then and this is now.
I have never said the Ramseys deserved a free pass.Those were Jays words , never mine.I said the Boulder PD had tunnelvision.They never considered other possibilities.The Boulder PD was incompetent in their investigation of the case.
There's the old expression about "indicting a ham sandwich". Grand juries will indict if the DA wants it. If the DA believes he has proof for a conviction. That didn't happen with the Ramseys.There's no proof they killed Jon Benet.Just ..in my view..silly suppositions and assumptions/suspicions.
I don't know why Jay seems to want to give me such a hard time.Maybe she has something personal against me.Maybe she has some personal agenda.You can ask her that question.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

The Ramseys didn't have to prove innocence..the police/legal authorities have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.That is what matters.Would you like to be convicted based upon accusations with no proof ? Heck..check out the Innocence Projects' website.People have rotted in jail who were innocent because somebody was wrong..a witness misindentified someone for example..and it took dna..sometimes after years..to prove that person innocent.The State of TN..the state legislature..gave a man $180,000 because of a wrongful conviction.He spent years in prison for a crime he didn't commit.:waitasec: Shouldn't that matter ? Shouldn't the police be right ?. Or is the only thing that matters is that somebody be arrested ? Doesn't matter if they are guilty.Just that somebody must pay. An expensive proposition.:banghead:

 

[IrishMist]

back when I use to read her postings on courttv.com.That was then and this is now.
I have never said the Ramseys deserved a free pass.Those were Jays words , never mine.I said the Boulder PD had tunnelvision.They never considered other possibilities.The Boulder PD was incompetent in their investigation of the case.
There's the old expression about "indicting a ham sandwich". Grand juries will indict if the DA wants it. If the DA believes he has proof for a conviction. That didn't happen with the Ramseys.There's no proof they killed Jon Benet.Just ..in my view..silly suppositions and assumptions/suspicions.
I don't know why Jay seems to want to give me such a hard time.Maybe she has something personal against me.Maybe she has some personal agenda.You can ask her that question.

We don't know what the Grand Jury decided, they never issued a report. The DA does not have to do what the Grand Jury recommends, anyway. I also wonder why the parents, of all people, were never called to testify. They were in the house, why on Earth would they not be called as material witnesses?

Honestly, Wolf, it looks to me as if you may have something personal against Jayelles. But like you said above, that was then, and this is now. You obviously know a lot about this case, and I, for one, would enjoy just discussing it with you.

I can honestly say that I can't decide if they are guilty or not. The evidence seems to point that way, and I believe their actions afterward point toward guilt... but really, the only thing keeping me from thinking they didn't do it is emotional. They don't seem the type to me. That's not real firm ground to stand on. To me, the actual evidence points toward their guilt.