Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. What do you think?

[the quiet girl]

I can't quote with this iPad.

PAXIMUS, how can you claim a fact of SG boyfriend breaking her jaw as hyperbole, then turn around and claim what MP mentions as facts supporting that she was irrational. If anything it supports that these men will try a cover their own butts then anything with discrediting the victim. Sorry I just can't buy that. No we do not know exactly what happened but SG did make the best decisions she could in her situation. Including calling 911, a fact. Sounds pretty sane to me.

ETA:
Ones rough childhood has no bearing on this, it shows one of probably the main reason she wound up as a sex worker. I had beyond a rough childhood it only made me stronger and most definitely streetwise and understanding. I think the same from what I know of SG.

 

[Seaslug44]

what does a foster parent relationship have to do with SG disappearing?

The question remains unanswered- why couldn't SG return to live with her family?

This is highly unusual.

It does not indicate child abuse (because the other children would not be permitted to return home).

It suggests that a situation existed with SG.

 

[PAXIMUS]

The question remains unanswered- why couldn't SG return to live with her family?

This is highly unusual.

It does not indicate child abuse (because the other children would not be permitted to return home).

It suggests that a situation existed with SG.

Notable.

 

[the quiet girl]

Bad behavior in teens could be one reason, mom may not wanted to deal with her? Do not forget she blazed through HS finishing early.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I can't quote with this iPad.

PAXIMUS, how can you claim a fact of SG boyfriend breaking her jaw as hyperbole, then turn around and claim what MP mentions as facts supporting that she was irrational. If anything it supports that these men will try a cover their own butts then anything with discrediting the victim. Sorry I just can't buy that. No we do not know exactly what happened but SG did make the best decisions she could in her situation. Including calling 911, a fact. Sounds pretty sane to me.

ETA:
Ones rough childhood has no bearing on this, it shows one of probably the main reason she wound up as a sex worker. I had beyond a rough childhood it only made me stronger and most definitely streetwise and understanding. I think the same from what I know of SG.

Sorry but suggesting that my conclusion that her death may be the result of an accident as opposed to a murder is akin to me blaming Shannan for her BF breaking her jaw is not only hyperbole it is the epitome of it.

 

[MrsPC]

The question remains unanswered- why couldn't SG return to live with her family?

This is highly unusual.

It does not indicate child abuse (because the other children would not be permitted to return home).

It suggests that a situation existed with SG.

do you have a link for Gilbert not being able to return to live with her family?

 

[dc20015]

Without intending to disrespect SG or her family I tend to agree with Paximus. We can speculate all that we want but the simple fact remains that we are missing many crucial pieces of information to rationally understand this case.

For instance, the relationship between SG & her family is sketchy. It has been reported that SG and her sisters were removed from Mari's home by the state authorities and eventually they were all returned to her except for SG (who continued to be raised by foster parents).

What does this indicate??

I fail to understand what happenings in SG's childhood and the relationship between her and her mother/family have to do with this event/accident/crime/discussion. Unless any among us is close to the Gilbert or foster families or was ever her social worker, we have no Earthly clue what went on in that situation, nor does it really matter.

If the implication is that SG's mental issues or difficultness contributed to her not living with MG and therefore means that she was more likely to have flipped out that night for no reason because she was crazy and unpredictable, that is debatable, highly speculative, and little more than gossip. Yes, IIRC even her family have themselves reported that she did display erratic behavior at times, but we have no clue if that was what got her kept away from MG.

Finally, her being mentally ill does not equate with her being unstable that night. Mental illness is poorly understood. Especially in an episodic and cyclical disorder like BPD, persons can go months-years without becoming unstable. A combo of mental illness and drugs is a dangerous one, but does not always result in a freakout or breakdown, assuming she was using that evening.

There are conflicting reports on her mental state that night. Everyone and their grandmother seemingly says she was frightened and upset, including Pak and Coletti. There is only that one cop or ex-cop saying she was "calm". This same writer then cites that it was common for her to flip out. It's all conflicting and confusing. Then of course, there are certain players who have investment in painting a particular picture of the goings on and none of us have actually heard her 911 call.

JMHO

 

[Dwntwnslim]

I've said this before, I don't think we have enough info to conclude whether or not Shannan Gilbert died as a result of foul play or accident. Good arguments have been presented in this forum for both. I'm still on the fence personally...anxiously awaiting the ME's report. JMO.

 

[the quiet girl]

Sorry but suggesting that my conclusion that her death may be the result of an accident as opposed to a murder is akin to me blaming Shannan for her BF breaking her jaw is not only hyperbole it is the epitome of it.

I never did such a thing.
Where did I say that you blame her for her boyfriends abuse?
nope
sticking to facts is better then this
ETA:
now on a PC so here is the full posting convo:

Her BF breaking her jaw has nothing to do with this discussion, that is called hyperbole. I stated what I did after a close examination of the facts of this case and listening to what LE has to say, since they know a lot more than we do and I came to the conclusion that right now at this point the evidence supports her dying in some way not related to murder.


I am not 'blaming the victim.' I also do not know anything about "more MP and JB Bulls--t statements," what I referenced in my post came directly from a statement made by a detective involved in the case who wrote a letter to the editor of a local news publication and who listened to the 9-11 calls himself and concluded what I stated above from them.

I certainly respect those who feel it is a murder case and if it is I hope the that allegedly killed her is brought to justice and punished for his crime, but I also am not going to lose site of the fact that this may not in fact be a murder and it could very well be that she died accidently and as a result of her going in to an irrational frenzy due to her mental illness.

In short, I am just keeping an open mind.


I could end up being very wrong about that and if I am I will revisit this post and eat my crow accordingly, but at this time I can only go by what the facts in front of me say and those facts do not point to this being a murder case.


Only time will tell.

so I responded to that first bold by me with:

I can't quote with this iPad.

PAXIMUS, how can you claim a fact of SG boyfriend breaking her jaw as hyperbole, then turn around and claim what MP mentions as facts supporting that she was irrational. If anything it supports that these men will try a cover their own butts then anything with discrediting the victim. Sorry I just can't buy that. No we do not know exactly what happened but SG did make the best decisions she could in her situation. Including calling 911, a fact. Sounds pretty sane to me.

ETA:
Ones rough childhood has no bearing on this, it shows one of probably the main reason she wound up as a sex worker. I had beyond a rough childhood it only made me stronger and most definitely streetwise and understanding. I think the same from what I know of SG.

I debated the statement of you saying it had not a thing to do with it but you considered the statements of the perp that did that as a fact and the driver MP.

do not get me wrong
I did not ever say you blamed her for her assault from the boyfriend.
I do not want to be accused falsely and would never say such a thing.
thank you

 

[the quiet girl]

I've said this before, I don't think we have enough info to conclude whether or not Shannan Gilbert died as a result of foul play or accident. Good arguments have been presented in this forum for both. I'm still on the fence personally...anxiously awaiting the ME's report. JMO.

ditto

 

[Dwntwnslim]

I have issues with the reporting from this news outlet but, I thought I should post this because in this article, AD admits to punching Shannan Gilbert.


NJ.com
Jersey City prostitute still missing after 13 months of
searching
Sunday, June 12, 2011
By Amy Brittain/The Star-Ledger
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/jersey_city_prostitute_still_m.html

'One night, Gilbert came home intoxicated and started a fight, Diaz said.

"I retaliated and hit her back," he said. "I hit her too hard."

The punch fractured the left side of her jaw, which needed a metal plate to be fixed, he said. The plate would make her body easily identifiable, should it be found.'

 

[PAXIMUS]

I never did such a thing.
Where did I say that you blame her for her boyfriends abuse?
nope
sticking to facts is better then this
ETA:
now on a PC so here is the full posting convo:


so I responded to that first bold by me with:


I debated the statement of you saying it had not a thing to do with it but you considered the statements of the perp that did that as a fact and the driver MP.

do not get me wrong
I did not ever say you blamed her for her assault from the boyfriend.
I do not want to be accused falsely and would never say such a thing.
thank you

No, you didnt, I was referring to Windsor's post and you responded. When I said earlier that her mental illness could have played a role in her demise, Windor responded with:


"I guess that is why AD, her boyfriend, previously broke her jaw too; her behavior!"


I responded that I thought that was hyperbole, you took issue with that and I further responded that I disagreed that it was not hyperbole, it is and remains so.

 

[the quiet girl]

No, you didnt, I was referring to Windsor's post and you responded.

Oh good then, I wouldn't want you to think I would say such a thing about you.
I had thought you were talking to me since you quoted me in the post.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I've said this before, I don't think we have enough info to conclude whether or not Shannan Gilbert died as a result of foul play or accident. Good arguments have been presented in this forum for both. I'm still on the fence personally...anxiously awaiting the ME's report. JMO.

Exactly and looking at the facts of this case and the facts of the other cases where bodies were found in burlap and mutilated etc, this case is missing a lot of the elements of those cases therefore it is safe, at this time, given the evidence we have, to at least CONSIDER that this may have been an accident. I dont know that it WAS AN ACCIDENT but I am keeping an open mind that it may have been and NO WAY am I ready to start pointing fingers at people like the Doctor and Mr Coletti or Mr Brewer, like many others have, quite irresponsibly IMO, without evidence that suggests their guilt or involvment. At this time, as LEO has concluded, it appears that it may have been an accidental death, if more evidence emerges to the contrary that will be the time to reconsider and look more closely at foul play, until then I am not willing nor ready to start ACCUSING people of MURDER.

 

[truthspider]

... the simple fact remains that we are missing many crucial pieces of information to rationally understand this case.

Such as the fact that SCPD is involved in an active serial killer investigation and is therefore not going to reveal things to the public and doesn't want the media or public talking about their poi? Or that they have been asking the individuals involved in this case not to talk about the details of the case? If you keep in mind that we are outside of the actual investigation, and can't see inside, what your looking at actually becomes more clear.

 

[truthspider]

I fail to understand what happenings in SG's childhood and the relationship between her and her mother/family have to do with this event/accident/crime/discussion. Unless any among us is close to the Gilbert or foster families or was ever her social worker, we have no Earthly clue what went on in that situation, nor does it really matter.

I think it's relevent in that SG did have real world experience with foster homes, so she was capable of deciphering between a legitimate halfway house and a con man trying to convince her of something that was fraudulent.

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

i believe shannan was 6 years old (or 7 years old) when all four children were removed from mari gilberts household. the 3 younger children (*sherre, sarra, stevie*) were returned and shannan was not.

i'd like to address the person who quoted the SCPD (detective?) who wrote (newsday?) saying he heard shannan's 911 call and she was calm and not screaming they're trying to kill me - IF SHE WAS SO CALM DUDE WHY DONT YOU RELEASE THE CALL TO THE FAMILY AND/OR MARI'S LAWYER
and LET US LISTEN TO IT SO WE CAN AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH YOU ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

we are waiting for TWO things
a) medical examiners analysis and report
b) the 911 call

without both of the above 2 items

we are stumbling around in the dark.

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

and regarding AD hitting shannan hard enough to break her jaw --
its bad enough he hit her
but he BROKE HER JAW
that was not just a reflex punch at shannan- that was a beating

ANY MAN WHO HITS A WOMAN IS A COWARD, A LOW LIFE and he really ought to be arrested for assault. END OF STATEMENT

 

[Dwntwnslim]

Exactly and looking at the facts of this case and the facts of the other cases where bodies were found in burlap and mutilated etc, this case is missing a lot of the elements of those cases therefore it is safe, at this time, given the evidence we have, to at least CONSIDER that this may have been an accident. I dont know that it WAS AN ACCIDENT but I am keeping an open mind that it may have been and NO WAY am I ready to start pointing fingers at people like the Doctor and Mr Coletti or Mr Brewer, like many others have, quite irresponsibly IMO, without evidence that suggests their guilt or involvment. At this time, as LEO has concluded, it appears that it may have been an accidental death, if more evidence emerges to the contrary that will be the time to reconsider and look more closely at foul play, until then I am not willing nor ready to start ACCUSING people of MURDER.

Agreed. You've made some valid and important points in this post, IMHO.

 

[the quiet girl]

Agreed. You've made some valid and important points in this post, IMHO.

I have to say so too.
I appreciate that Paximus is not ready to claim anyone is a murderer or jump on a bandwagon about it.
I am not ready too either and hold off because I just don't see any 100% proof yet.
That is not something to take lightly and just discussing it on a web site it is easy to be removed from the situation and declare such and such.
It is good to to think twice.

plus it is nice to have differing opinions it makes one think