Rachael
Team Rachael
jubie said:
I find it rather odd myself although I have seen people do it before. My SIL took pictures of her daughter sitting by her baby's grave. I never really understood the reasons for it.
Shapiro is back in Denver following up on new leads on the Ramsey case.
- Thread starter Summergirl
- Start date
I find it rather odd myself although I have seen people do it before. My SIL took pictures of her daughter sitting by her baby's grave. I never really understood the reasons for it.
Seeker
Former Member
Blue, looks like we can discount the Bonita Papers as being a source of factual reference now...BlueCrab said:
No photo's of the web were ever taken!!! So the cops could not have sent any such photo to Dr Opell....
Dr Opell doesn't remember receiving any photos from the Boulder City Police Dept either.
tipper
Former Member
From Margoo at the 2B WS
From Steve Thomas's bookpb page 108
Wickman had an argument at the Ramsey house with Detective Greg Idler, who had carefully lifted the metal grate above the broken window and found that the spiderweb between the window well bricks and the grate wasn't necessarily attached. Wickman challenged Idler's findings. The original web had never been photographed or committed to a report, a huge error that would become extraordinarily controversial in months to come.
pb page 219
In December both Sergeant Wickman and Detective Mike Everett had seen at least three strands of a spiderweb reaching from the brick window well upward to the covering grate. No one had photographed it.
From Steve Thomas's bookpb page 108
Wickman had an argument at the Ramsey house with Detective Greg Idler, who had carefully lifted the metal grate above the broken window and found that the spiderweb between the window well bricks and the grate wasn't necessarily attached. Wickman challenged Idler's findings. The original web had never been photographed or committed to a report, a huge error that would become extraordinarily controversial in months to come.
pb page 219
In December both Sergeant Wickman and Detective Mike Everett had seen at least three strands of a spiderweb reaching from the brick window well upward to the covering grate. No one had photographed it.
Which intruder would squeeze himself Spiderman-like through such a small window?Nuisanceposter said:
But wait, maybe this is a new lead: has Spiderman's alibi for that night ever been checked? :crazy:
Crazy? Sure, but an alleged 'Street Santa' secretely wandering around at night in that house full of people is no less crazy, lol!
tipper said:
tipper,
You have two eyewitnesses, Wickman and Everett, who saw "at least three strands of the web reaching from the brick window well upward to the covering grate". This is a fact, and is the most significant fact in regard to the window controversy. Exactly how many eyewitnesses are needed before the RST will acknowledge a fact?
If Idler had "carefully" lifted the grate but nevertheless broke the web strands there could be no photo of the strands. They were gone. The photo sent to Dr. Brent Opell was for identification of the web itself, which he did. The spider web was from the species Agelendidae, which hibernates for the entire winter and wouldn't have come out of hibernation in 10 degree weather to repair the web.
The most important fact here is that two eyewitnesses saw the unbroken spiderweb early in the morning BEFORE the grate was moved, which proves the grate had not been moved during the night. Once the grate had been moved, such things as unattached parts of the web in the window well and grass caught under the grate are all irrelevant.
BlueCrab
tipper
Former Member
As you know I have no dog in this fight because I don't really think the window was involved. But I might as well ask some questions...BlueCrab said:
1 - What photo did Dr. Opell identify? When was it taken? My impression from ST's book is they aren't back looking at the webs until July, 1997. p 211-220.
2. Wickman etc don't say "unbroken" they say at least 3 strands reaching upwards. Upwards? What does that mean? Attached to the grate or the bricks? The more I read these two quotes the more I wonder if this is another of Thomas' twitchy bits where he tries to leave us with one impression but maintains wiggle room in case he needs to slide out from under his statement.
3. We know the basement was hot. We know there was a hole in the window and sometimes it was opened to cool off the train room. Did anyone take the temperature in the window well and compare it to the ambient temperature in the yard? I'll bet you'd find it was warmer than 10 degrees even without the hole and open window. How much warmer would be nice to know.
Seeker
Former Member
BlueCrab said:
NO PHOTO'S WERE EVER TAKEN AND SENT TO DR OPELL of the web, why do you insist on ignoring this fact?
Dr Opell could not identify the web since no photo's were ever taken of it. Photo's taken over a year and a half later could have been from an entirely different species and not the funnel spider (which does not create threads and the web is not sticky so it would not have attached any such threads to the window well grate).
Dr Opell himself has stated that he does not remember any such photos being sent to him from the BPD.
Call him and ask him for yourself, maybe his memory has improved or something has jogged it by now.
Seeker
Former Member
Steve Thomas is the source as tipper already posted. Dr Opell does not remember receiving any photographs from the BPD for identification that were dated 12/26/1996. Call him yourself to see if he tells you the same thing. http://www.biol.vt.edu/faculty/opell/
Or you can go to the Virginia Tech Department of Entomology on March 2nd where he will be giving a seminar on the subject the evolution of adhesive mechanisms of spider silk. Funnel spiders do not have sticky webs, so no "strands" would be evident on the grate. This information came from sources sited for you earlier and from Dr Opell himself.
The Bonita papers are some facts with bunk thrown in as she was going to write a book (I believe it would have been illegal) on the case using those materials she obtained while employed as a secretary.
I will say this, I'm not disagreeing with you that nobody came through that window. I also disbelieve that the window was used as a point of entry or exit.
If this mythical unknown perp knew the Ramsey's were out of the house, had no fear of discovery, had been in there for hours (per Ramsey's *cough, investigators) to case the house and get familiar with it, knew that the alarm was not set, knew that the dog was not home, then IMO this person knew how to get into the house easily without the risk of being seen or leaving any evidence of himself. That window would not have been an easy point of entry, or exit. The DNA is a joke. It was old and degraded, not new or fresh as it would have been if it had been from the mythical and unknown perp.
John Ramsey already said it, "this was an inside job" and he would know.
Or you can go to the Virginia Tech Department of Entomology on March 2nd where he will be giving a seminar on the subject the evolution of adhesive mechanisms of spider silk. Funnel spiders do not have sticky webs, so no "strands" would be evident on the grate. This information came from sources sited for you earlier and from Dr Opell himself.
The Bonita papers are some facts with bunk thrown in as she was going to write a book (I believe it would have been illegal) on the case using those materials she obtained while employed as a secretary.
I will say this, I'm not disagreeing with you that nobody came through that window. I also disbelieve that the window was used as a point of entry or exit.
If this mythical unknown perp knew the Ramsey's were out of the house, had no fear of discovery, had been in there for hours (per Ramsey's *cough, investigators) to case the house and get familiar with it, knew that the alarm was not set, knew that the dog was not home, then IMO this person knew how to get into the house easily without the risk of being seen or leaving any evidence of himself. That window would not have been an easy point of entry, or exit. The DNA is a joke. It was old and degraded, not new or fresh as it would have been if it had been from the mythical and unknown perp.
John Ramsey already said it, "this was an inside job" and he would know.
Seeker said:
Seeker,
I have the hb copy of Thomas' book; not the pb copy. Who or what is the source of Dr. Opell's statement that he doesn't remember any spider web photos sent to him by the BPD? (tipper's post does not say this.) Thanks.
BlueCrab
Seeker
Former Member
And here I thought you considered yourself a "sleuth"?BlueCrab said:
Scroll back up and read and you'll figure it out. Time to excersize those sleuthing muscles again.
Seeker said:And here I thought you considered yourself a "sleuth"?
Scroll back up and read and you'll figure it out. Time to excersize those sleuthing muscles again.
Seeker,
You don't have a source, do you? Nice job of broken field running though.
Seeker,
The source for the photographing of the spider web is The Bonita Papers. The Bonita Papers are notes and police reports stolen by an insider, copied, and sold to the tabloids after an unsuccessful attempt was made to write a book using the stolen material.
From The Bonita Papers (exact wording):
"John Ramsey had presented his own theory on the murder of his daughter to all who would listen. He pointed to the location of a blue suitcase under the basement window and told of finding the window open when he searched the basement on the morning of the alleged kidnapping. He theorized that the murderer had made his entrance and escape through the window.
"However, as noted by detectives arriving early on the morning of December 26, an intact spider web covered the grate which blocked off the window. In order to enter or exit the window, the grate would have had to have been removed.
"This grate was photographed and collected for evidence. Interior dusting of the window for fingerprints was done by crime scene investigators and no latent prints were found. In May the photos were submitted to Brent Opell, professor of biology at the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, Virginia. Professor Opell reported that the web was that of Agelenidae, known as a funnel-web spider.
"The web was reasonably intact and extending through the grating, suggesting that the grating had not been disturbed since the spider constructed its web. According to Professor Opell, these types of spiders would cease constructing webs no later than early November, thus indicating that no one had entered that window well past this early November deadline. The theory that anyone could have entered the Ramsey residence through this broken window was totally discounted by this simple evidence of nature."
BlueCrab
The source for the photographing of the spider web is The Bonita Papers. The Bonita Papers are notes and police reports stolen by an insider, copied, and sold to the tabloids after an unsuccessful attempt was made to write a book using the stolen material.
From The Bonita Papers (exact wording):
"John Ramsey had presented his own theory on the murder of his daughter to all who would listen. He pointed to the location of a blue suitcase under the basement window and told of finding the window open when he searched the basement on the morning of the alleged kidnapping. He theorized that the murderer had made his entrance and escape through the window.
"However, as noted by detectives arriving early on the morning of December 26, an intact spider web covered the grate which blocked off the window. In order to enter or exit the window, the grate would have had to have been removed.
"This grate was photographed and collected for evidence. Interior dusting of the window for fingerprints was done by crime scene investigators and no latent prints were found. In May the photos were submitted to Brent Opell, professor of biology at the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, Virginia. Professor Opell reported that the web was that of Agelenidae, known as a funnel-web spider.
"The web was reasonably intact and extending through the grating, suggesting that the grating had not been disturbed since the spider constructed its web. According to Professor Opell, these types of spiders would cease constructing webs no later than early November, thus indicating that no one had entered that window well past this early November deadline. The theory that anyone could have entered the Ramsey residence through this broken window was totally discounted by this simple evidence of nature."
BlueCrab
tipper
Former Member
If you read a couple posts below this you'll see Dr Opell apparently answers his emailSeeker said:
tipper
Former Member
Seeker said:
No. I provide Thomas as the source. Seeker provided Opell's address if you want to write him. Much as I would like to read his email I don't know whether Seeker has his permission. I have ever written people and they specifically asked me not to post their answer because they didn't want to get involved with the forums.BlueCrab said:
tipper said:
tipper,
I don't have Steve Thomas' pb book. Can you quote the passage from the book that states no photo was taken of the spider web by the BPD? Thanks.
Seeker,
Can you provide Dr. Opell's quote from the e-mail he apparently sent to you that states he doesn't remember receiving a picture of the spider web from the BPD? Thanks.
BlueCrab
tipper
Former Member
From Steve Thomas's bookpb page 108
Wickman had an argument at the Ramsey house with Detective Greg Idler, who had carefully lifted the metal grate above the broken window and found that the spiderweb between the window well bricks and the grate wasn't necessarily attached. Wickman challenged Idler's findings. The original web had never been photographed or committed to a report, a huge error that would become extraordinarily controversial in months to come.
pb page 219
In December both Sergeant Wickman and Detective Mike Everett had seen at least three strands of a spiderweb reaching from the brick window well upward to the covering grate. No one had photographed it.
Page 108 is at the end of Chapter 9 and page 219 is at the end of Chapter 20. Hope that helps translate pb to hb.
Wickman had an argument at the Ramsey house with Detective Greg Idler, who had carefully lifted the metal grate above the broken window and found that the spiderweb between the window well bricks and the grate wasn't necessarily attached. Wickman challenged Idler's findings. The original web had never been photographed or committed to a report, a huge error that would become extraordinarily controversial in months to come.
pb page 219
In December both Sergeant Wickman and Detective Mike Everett had seen at least three strands of a spiderweb reaching from the brick window well upward to the covering grate. No one had photographed it.
Page 108 is at the end of Chapter 9 and page 219 is at the end of Chapter 20. Hope that helps translate pb to hb.
Jayelles
New Member
Sorry, I can't resist this -- you are quoting Steve Thomas' book as a source?? What happened to:-tipper said:
Tipper
http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=956901&postcount=78
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