Should baby K be allowed to see TH? ***POLL***

[yosande]

I agree Kat. And that is what I fear even now. What has Baby K been exposed to around Terri already? What was happening in that house after Kaine left for work? Sexting, Murder for Hire, relationships with Landscapers, a brother who disappears?

Maybe much more.

It's chilling.

child abuse toward Kyron?
neglect toward the baby?
Her son wasn't living there for a reason.
I don't know the reason, but Kaine says he's welcome there, so it isn't Kaine's and his relationship, so what was it?
It should probably be assesed before any visitation, supervised or otherwise. James probably has more insight into what was happening in that home and with his bro and sis than Kaine. moo

 

[stmarysmead]

Imo I think the problem is she hasn't been charged with anything,,,yet.

I respect what you are saying. But IMO, the things we are talking about are just too horrific to take the slightest chance with a child. That's how I feel.

 

[gardeness]

Yes, the toddler should see her mother. Terri's alibi is supported from the time that she left the school until she took her toddler on "a drive", and LE is unable to produce any evidence from this timeframe. If they had evidence, they would have arrested her by now.

 

[Kat010]

I agree Kat. And that is what I fear even now. What has Baby K been exposed to around Terri already? What was happening in that house after Kaine left for work? Sexting, Murder for Hire, relationships with Landscapers, a brother who disappears?

Maybe much more.

It's chilling.

Other than sexting, all of the above is speculation. No charges have been filed against anyone, and I've yet to see evidence of multiple relationships with landscapers.

But if we're going to speculate, who knows if baby K has been exposed to Kaine's HS friend, MC and all his activities? Who knows if baby K has been exposed to Kaine's brother, now in jail for sexual abuse toward a female child? Who knows if baby K has been exposed to the family member K's brother alleged abused him?

Early on I said that I hoped that LE was looking into everyone who had access to the family home and the children, in all settings. That's for investigative purposes, as we don't really know about all the employees at the school, nor do we know everything about everyone who may have been at the Horman home, or, for that matter, the Young home. Facts are required, IMO.

The answer is--we don't know who had access to the children and in what ways.. And frankly, I'm not into speculations like what TH did during the day. They can go on and on, but with no help towards finding Kyron, IMO.

Facts. I likes 'em.

 

[Scamperoo]

Murder for hire plots don't count?

A nebulous accusation, made by a landscaper, hiding behind an alias does not make a MFH plot. This shouldn't even be considered at this point.

 

[stmarysmead]

Other than sexting, all of the above is speculation. No charges have been filed against anyone, and I've yet to see evidence of multiple relationships with landscapers.

But if we're going to speculate, who knows if baby K has been exposed to Kaine's HS friend, MC and all his activities? Who knows if baby K has been exposed to Kaine's brother, now in jail for sexual abuse toward a female child? Who knows if baby K has been exposed to the family member K's brother alleged abused him?

Early on I said that I hoped that LE was looking into everyone who had access to the family home and the children, in all settings. That's for investigative purposes, as we don't really know about all the employees at the school, nor do we know everything about everyone who may have been at the Horman home, or, for that matter, the Young home. Facts are required, IMO.

The answer is--we don't know who had access to the children and in what ways.. And frankly, I'm not into speculations like what TH did during the day. They can go on and on, but with no help towards finding Kyron, IMO.

Facts. I likes 'em.

I see what you are saying. You make some good points.

The one difference here, for me, is that I am very influenced by the fact that it is LE that says that through its investigation...Terri is more likely than not behind Kyron's disappearance.

It is LE, through their investigation, that says Terri tried to hire a killer. This has been included in court documents for the RO and I believe repeated in court the other day. This is not just idle speculation. LE is Kaine's source....not the old lady across the street. To me, that is NOT "nebulous." Even Terri's attorney bewailed the other day that:

"There is no doubt she is in the crosshairs of the state's investigation," Bunch said. "Virtually anything she says can be used by the state."

Bunch said Terri would likely incriminate herself in divorce proceedings and would plead the Fifth Amendment."

http://www.nwcn.com/news/oregon/Ter...of-investigation-says-attorney-104579809.html

How does an innocent person "incriminate" himself?

So these are not all equal rumors, or equal speculation. The ones pertaining to Terri's culpability have the weight of the professionals investigating these crimes. That's major to me in deciding how to react to them. Even her attorneys the other day, IMO, gave the impression that Terri must remain silent or she would incriminate herself.

I'm also influenced that Terri essentially was amenable to not seeing Baby K for two years if the court allowed her silence (abatement) to be maintained. I think the talk about filing to see Baby K was just grandstanding because , as Gitana explains...that means Terri essentially WILL have to face questions. So silence is more important than being with Baby K for two years. So I doubt there will be any issue of visitation.

Is this an innocent Mother adopting that stance? Not to me.

Finally...and this is personal...I had a wonderful Mother who ingrained in her children to never demand of others...even in a debate...anything we CAN and yet would not do ourselves. If someone works for you and needs to be home at 5 because the Babysitter leaves...do not ask her to stay longer if I wouldn't leave my OWN child unattended. Stuff like that. She trained us to think that way...and it's worked well in my life.

I would NOT leave my child with a woman LE has indicated they believe tried to have her husband killed and LE believes did something to make a child who loved her...disappear. Not in a million years would I do that. I think of those I love...and say...'NO!"

So therefore , although I respect those of you who write intelligently about Terri's rights, etc....I would never, even on a discussion blog...ask Desiree and Kaine to do...what I know NOT would not do myself.

That's my perspective.

 

[Chili Fries]

Really is a moot point unless Terri decides to challenge the RO. Even though her attorney's statements make it seem like that may happen I'll believe it when it actually occurs. I wonder about the probability of them being able to attack the RO in a way that fits in with their overall legal strategy. Saying they are going to do something and figuring out a way to do it are two different things.

Highly supervised visits might be reasonable. I seriously doubt she's going to harm the baby in that kind of setting. She's fighting too hard to keep her behind out of jail so she's not going to put herself there by doing something that dumb. Also I think she really cares about her daughter. I do think that if she were responsible for Kyron's disappearance then she did it to the child that wasn't biologically hers for a reason. Still, if she is responsible then that is a monstrous thing to do to a child and a whole lot of caution has to be exercised in this matter.

As I posted before, baby K's second birthday is coming up the second week in November and that's obviously going to be very tough for her to miss.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Innocent until proven guilty, and this situation is not baby K's fault. She surely wonders what happened to mom.
With T's shenanigans regarding baby K after the RO, the supervision requirement is a no-brainer.

 

[citigirl]

I have a little experience in this area that makes me lean in the direction of "no contact." After several weeks of not contacting my stepdaughter, during which we later found out she was having relationships with multiple overlapping men she met on the internet and then bilked out of money (she was probably manic), my stepdaughter's biomom turned up and wanted to contact. Specifically she wanted to keep stepdaughter every other week. My husband said no, and she kidnapped stepdaughter from day care. The day care workers had a physical altercation with her when she grabbed stepdaughter and they called the police. Biomom hid out with stepdaughter until my husband found her at a daycare center in biomom's town and took her back. Judge ordered no visitation for mother. Then mother turns up and files for custody(!)
Judge orders supervised visitation.

During supervised visitation biomom cried and cried and cried. A couple of times the social worker had to caution her about what she was saying to stepdaughter. Stepdaughter was a basket case for several days after these visitations. It was very tough. Thankfully, biomom moved away and now has infrequent contact with stepdaughter.

I believe Terri has a similar histrionic personality from what people have said. She lies constantly, we have been told. I am really afraid the drama and chaos she will create during these visits will do baby K more damage than good.

 

[germaine]

Really is a moot point unless Terri decides to challenge the RO. Even though her attorney's statements make it seem like that may happen I'll believe it when it actually occurs. I wonder about the probability of them being able to attack the RO in a way that fits in with their overall legal strategy. Saying they are going to do something and figuring out a way to do it are two different things.

Highly supervised visits might be reasonable. I seriously doubt she's going to harm the baby in that kind of setting. She's fighting too hard to keep her behind out of jail so she's not going to put herself there by doing something that dumb. Also I think she really cares about her daughter. I do think that if she were responsible for Kyron's disappearance then she did it to the child that wasn't biologically hers for a reason. Still, if she is responsible then that is a monstrous thing to do to a child and a whole lot of caution has to be exercised in this matter.

As I posted before, baby K's second birthday is coming up the second week in November and that's obviously going to be very tough for her to miss.

Yeah, I posted above about not holding our breath for that. Then I just happened to be reading an article from yesterday and noticed this quote from Bunch

11: 15 a.m.: Peter Bunch: "The publicity that's going on is not being driven by Ms. Horman, it's being driven by Mr. Horman, when he tells national media there's no doubt Ms. Horman is involved." "If Mr. Horman is really interested in what's best for the child, then Mr. Horman wouldn't object to any visitation by this child's mother."

http://www.katu.com/news/local/104507829.html

I think they won't challenge the RO outright, but will try to get KH to agree to supervised visitation. If he won't, he'll be the bad guy (in the opinion of some), and if he does agree TH will get to see the baby. The best they can do to create a kinda win/win for TH, or at least potential "lose" situation for KH? And TH STILL won't have to take the stand.

This strategy makes more sense to me then her challenging the RO outright in light of her decision not to challenge it before, her attorney's statement that she'll incriminate herself if she testifies and would plead the 5th, and the defense focus on the constitutional issues, which trial judges are very cautious with.

jmoo

 

[gwenabob]

^^^^
Somehow I doubt Kaine will willingly give visitation, supervised or otherwise, to TH. I think most the locals I know would support him on that decision 100%. Plus, I don't think he feels he is in a personality contest with the public.

 

[Kat010]

I see what you are saying. You make some good points.

The one difference here, for me, is that I am very influenced by the fact that it is LE that says that through its investigation...Terri is more likely than not behind Kyron's disappearance.

It is LE, through their investigation, that says Terri tried to hire a killer. This has been included in court documents for the RO and I believe repeated in court the other day. This is not just idle speculation. LE is Kaine's source....not the old lady across the street. To me, that is NOT "nebulous." Even Terri's attorney bewailed the other day that:

"There is no doubt she is in the crosshairs of the state's investigation," Bunch said. "Virtually anything she says can be used by the state."

Bunch said Terri would likely incriminate herself in divorce proceedings and would plead the Fifth Amendment."

http://www.nwcn.com/news/oregon/Ter...of-investigation-says-attorney-104579809.html

How does an innocent person "incriminate" himself?

So these are not all equal rumors, or equal speculation. The ones pertaining to Terri's culpability have the weight of the professionals investigating these crimes. That's major to me in deciding how to react to them. Even her attorneys the other day, IMO, gave the impression that Terri must remain silent or she would incriminate herself.

I'm also influenced that Terri essentially was amenable to not seeing Baby K for two years if the court allowed her silence (abatement) to be maintained. I think the talk about filing to see Baby K was just grandstanding because , as Gitana explains...that means Terri essentially WILL have to face questions. So silence is more important than being with Baby K for two years. So I doubt there will be any issue of visitation.

Is this an innocent Mother adopting that stance? Not to me.

Finally...and this is personal...I had a wonderful Mother who ingrained in her children to never demand of others...even in a debate...anything we CAN and yet would not do ourselves. If someone works for you and needs to be home at 5 because the Babysitter leaves...do not ask her to stay longer if I wouldn't leave my OWN child unattended. Stuff like that. She trained us to think that way...and it's worked well in my life.

I would NOT leave my child with a woman LE has indicated they believe tried to have her husband killed and LE believes did something to make a child who loved her...disappear. Not in a million years would I do that. I think of those I love...and say...'NO!"

So therefore , although I respect those of you who write intelligently about Terri's rights, etc....I would never, even on a discussion blog...ask Desiree and Kaine to do...what I know NOT would not do myself.

That's my perspective.

Court documents? They're the total story? OK. During the time of their divorce, DY got a restraining order against KH because she was afraid he would kidnap the children (only one of which was his).

A judge signed that and put it into effect. Of course, we don't have any police records that might indicate domestic violence--not saying that there was or wasn't--but let's face it, according to the criteria in the post above, a RO was issued against Kaine for fear of a potential felony crime that was, by judge's signature, ruled as, apparently, a reasonable fear. Or else he wouldn't have issued the RO.

Understand--I am not bashing Kaine at all. But once having opened the door to legal documents, then legal documents come into play.

And then there's the alleged MFH plot, according to someone whose name isn't even being used. What, he's going to testify in court, and have his picture taken coming and going, with a false identity? Boy, that's some kind of reliable witness--especially as we don't know anything about him.

However, on another thread, someone posted a theory that maybe the LS was an illegal immigrant and that's why LE gave him an alias.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5667890&postcount=43"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Should baby K be allowed to see TH? ***POLL***[/ame]



If he's an illegal immigrant, that status does *not* add to his credibility, IMHO. And if he indeed is (and I don't know) then LE's actions in sheltering and protecting him do not add credibility to them in this case. (Note: I live in OK, we don't tend to protect illegals here.)

Sexting? As I've said before, repeatedly--bad bad bad. However, not a crime. She sexted, while Kaine committed actual adultery while his pregnant first wife was about a month away from delivery. One flirting, the other actual sex. Sauce, goose, gander. And, yes Kyron was missing, which makes her actions even more tacky, but then again: we don't know all the things behind DY's successful plea for a RO against Kaine, nor do we know all of KH's personal actions in the prior few months or after the RO against TH.

The "Jezebel factor", meaning sexy woman who acts outside others' ideas of what she should do or look like, isn't legal evidence. What always amazes me is that in 2010, this chauvinistic, misogynist view still occurs. IMHO, I'd put a "Jezebel factor" label on KH too for his prior adultery. But that's just me--I think that if an action is wrong, it's wrong for all parties who are involved. And that also goes for MC. We don't know quite how or why he came rushing onto the scene, nor can we discuss him.

So if we're talking morals: KH doesn't pass either. If we're talking court documents indicating potential or alleged criminal behavior, and in KH's case, potential criminal behavior against children, then we have court documents against both parties. Whew.

This all boggles my mind. Luckily for me, in my family or circle of friends, I've not experienced this kind of behavior! Yikes!

Underline by me--I've not yet seen anything in documents or in posts here that have anyone asking to leave baby K. with TH, hand her off, or anything like that. The question is whether or not baby K should be able to see her mother, with, as far as I could see from replies in the poll, here on WS tends to focus on supervised visitation. (I can't remember what Bunch said right now in the KGW story.)

As for incriminating herself, I'd point to the two videos, one by a law professor and attorney, the other by an experienced police officer, who both say you shouldn't talk to cops without an attorney. In those presentations, they explain how the simplest statement can be taken and used against you in ways you don't expect. The constitutional amendment's precise legal wording refers to self-incrimination, so that's the wording that is used. I, too, am interested in some day seeing the facts that may relate to how TH's attorneys are invoking consitutional protections, but right now, I don't know.

And, let me again point out that the legal issues I, and others raise, aren't because we're Terri fans or supporters, or Kaine haters, as has been alleged before in discussions. I raise these issues because the loss of Kyron is a tragic, serious matter; the protections of our constitution are a serious matter, and the careful, logical analysis of facts along with a well-presented set of evidence are also serious matters.

JMO

 

[germaine]

^^^^
Somehow I doubt Kaine will willingly give visitation, supervised or otherwise, to TH. I think most the locals I know would support him on that decision 100%. Plus, I don't think he feels he is in a personality contest with the public.

I would hope he wouldn't agree, and I agree with you that, rightly, he doesn't see it as a personlity contest. But that doesn't mean Houze doesn't want to put whatever spin he can on the situation, imo. Also, didn't KH say something like he might not object depending on the circumstances? paraphrasing.

I guess my main point was trying to make sense of whether the defense is really, truly thinking about challenging the RO and TH potentially having to testify. I couldn't see that happening, and I think Bunch's quote indicates that it probably won't. jmoo

 

[germaine]

oh my, O/T but I just noticed that the same article also says this:

Custody of Kyron, even though he is still missing, would likely also be under consideration.

Is there reason to believe TH will try to get custody or visitation with Kryon in loco parentis!?!?

 

[Donjeta]

I voted yes with supervision because I've been saying since June that she ought to have filed for supervised visitation if she thinks about her baby, but I could very easily change my vote to "No way Jose", depending on what the police have against her. IMO a person who contemplates murdering the child's father and hurts the child's brother is not a safe, loving and nurturing parent even if everybody says she dotes on her child because the love of her child should make her realize murdering the child's father and brother is not good for her. If there is a serious suspicion based on good evidence that she hurt Kyron there is reason to fear that she could hurt her daughter too, emotionally or otherwise.

I would rather err on the side of extreme caution because the baby can deal with the trauma of not seeing her mother but only if she is alive and accounted for.

Anyway, it's a bit late to be worrying about the baby's trauma of not seeing her primary caretaker because she's already suffered the trauma of not seeing her primary caretaker; it's been over three months.

A psych eval would be the way to go now, IMO, unless they can have a trial soon. But I doubt she would agree.

 

[gwenabob]

oh my, O/T but I just noticed that the same article also says this:

Custody of Kyron, even though he is still missing, would likely also be under consideration.

Is there reason to believe TH will try to get custody or visitation with Kryon in loco parentis!?!?

I would think Kyron's custody issue would be between Kaine and Desiree, NOT Terri. I don't think they made that very clear.

 

[Donjeta]

I would hope he wouldn't agree, and I agree with you that, rightly, he doesn't see it as a personlity contest. But that doesn't mean Houze doesn't want to put whatever spin he can on the situation, imo. Also, didn't KH say something like he might not object depending on the circumstances? paraphrasing.

I guess my main point was trying to make sense of whether the defense is really, truly thinking about challenging the RO and TH potentially having to testify. I couldn't see that happening, and I think Bunch's quote indicates that it probably won't. jmoo

I thought his quote "she is not interested in abandoning her daughter" was not very forceful. It's probably the negation of interest that makes the statement sound bored and blahblah IMO. If I say I'm not interested about something it indicates that I don't have any strong feelings about it one way or another.

Of course Terri is not to blame for the way her lawyer chooses to phrase things and she might have expressed the sentiment far more forcefully and emotionally, in the positive. "I love my daughter, I miss her, I think about her every day. I worry about her, I am going to do everything in my power to see her and be a mother to her..."

 

[nosysw]

Yes, with the supervision of a trained family counselor. As TH has not been charged or convicted, as much as I may not like her and think she is guilty, it would be criminal to have deprived baby K of this contact if it turns out she is not guilty.

Even prisoners are allowed supervised contact with their children as it has been shown in study after study that disrupted contact is harmful to children even in cases where the parent is not able to be an appropriate guardian.

As someone who has worked with children who are separated from their mothers for many reasons (but generally because of abuse, neglect and in some cases incarceration for drug use) I will continue to advocate for supervised parental contact unless it can be proven that it would be harmful to the child.

I believe unless it can be proven that baby K is being psychologically damaged by the contact it should be continued until she can make the decision for herself.

 

[germaine]

I thought his quote "she is not interested in abandoning her daughter" was not very forceful. It's probably the negation of interest that makes the statement sound bored and blahblah IMO. If I say I'm not interested about something it indicates that I don't have any strong feelings about it one way or another.

Of course Terri is not to blame for the way her lawyer chooses to phrase things and she might have expressed the sentiment far more forcefully and emotionally, in the positive. "I love my daughter, I miss her, I think about her every day. I worry about her, I am going to do everything in my power to see her and be a mother to her..."

Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, talk about understating a mother's interest in seeing her little, little girl! I guess what else could he really say, though, since by not challenging the RO she's effectively abandoned her for the past several months and the foreseeable future. jmoo

 

[stmarysmead]

Court documents? They're the total story? OK. During the time of their divorce, DY got a restraining order against KH because she was afraid he would kidnap the children (only one of which was his).

A judge signed that and put it into effect. Of course, we don't have any police records that might indicate domestic violence--not saying that there was or wasn't--but let's face it, according to the criteria in the post above, a RO was issued against Kaine for fear of a potential felony crime that was, by judge's signature, ruled as, apparently, a reasonable fear. Or else he wouldn't have issued the RO.

Understand--I am not bashing Kaine at all. But once having opened the door to legal documents, then legal documents come into play.

And then there's the alleged MFH plot, according to someone whose name isn't even being used. What, he's going to testify in court, and have his picture taken coming and going, with a false identity? Boy, that's some kind of reliable witness--especially as we don't know anything about him.

However, on another thread, someone posted a theory that maybe the LS was an illegal immigrant and that's why LE gave him an alias.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Should baby K be allowed to see TH? ***POLL***



If he's an illegal immigrant, that status does *not* add to his credibility, IMHO. And if he indeed is (and I don't know) then LE's actions in sheltering and protecting him do not add credibility to them in this case. (Note: I live in OK, we don't tend to protect illegals here.)

Sexting? As I've said before, repeatedly--bad bad bad. However, not a crime. She sexted, while Kaine committed actual adultery while his pregnant first wife was about a month away from delivery. One flirting, the other actual sex. Sauce, goose, gander. And, yes Kyron was missing, which makes her actions even more tacky, but then again: we don't know all the things behind DY's successful plea for a RO against Kaine, nor do we know all of KH's personal actions in the prior few months or after the RO against TH.

The "Jezebel factor", meaning sexy woman who acts outside others' ideas of what she should do or look like, isn't legal evidence. What always amazes me is that in 2010, this chauvinistic, misogynist view still occurs. IMHO, I'd put a "Jezebel factor" label on KH too for his prior adultery. But that's just me--I think that if an action is wrong, it's wrong for all parties who are involved. And that also goes for MC. We don't know quite how or why he came rushing onto the scene, nor can we discuss him.

So if we're talking morals: KH doesn't pass either. If we're talking court documents indicating potential or alleged criminal behavior, and in KH's case, potential criminal behavior against children, then we have court documents against both parties. Whew.

This all boggles my mind. Luckily for me, in my family or circle of friends, I've not experienced this kind of behavior! Yikes!

Underline by me--I've not yet seen anything in documents or in posts here that have anyone asking to leave baby K. with TH, hand her off, or anything like that. The question is whether or not baby K should be able to see her mother, with, as far as I could see from replies in the poll, here on WS tends to focus on supervised visitation. (I can't remember what Bunch said right now in the KGW story.)

As for incriminating herself, I'd point to the two videos, one by a law professor and attorney, the other by an experienced police officer, who both say you shouldn't talk to cops without an attorney. In those presentations, they explain how the simplest statement can be taken and used against you in ways you don't expect. The constitutional amendment's precise legal wording refers to self-incrimination, so that's the wording that is used. I, too, am interested in some day seeing the facts that may relate to how TH's attorneys are invoking consitutional protections, but right now, I don't know.

And, let me again point out that the legal issues I, and others raise, aren't because we're Terri fans or supporters, or Kaine haters, as has been alleged before in discussions. I raise these issues because the loss of Kyron is a tragic, serious matter; the protections of our constitution are a serious matter, and the careful, logical analysis of facts along with a well-presented set of evidence are also serious matters.

JMO

Regarding the morals issue... Kaine's transgressions are years ago and...there is Terri!!!! right next to him back then... involved in the deception of Desiree. So Terri AGAIN! No indication that since he married Terri, Kaine has been anything but devoted. However, with LE as a source, Terri appears NOT to have been a devoted wife.

Maybe Kaine would still be with Desiree if he had not met Terri. It is Terri who seems very "restless" and impulsive in her romantic "liaisons."

The sexting is not just sleazy, it is also alarming in regard to Terri's judgment and impulse control. One needn't have been a member of Mensa to think one should be careful when LE already is investigating you for a crime. Does Teri have so little self control? To me that is another clue. Self indulgence and no impulse control can lead many unfortunate things...even to tragedy.

It;s repulsive to me to think of Baby K being at risk in the "care" of someone with poor impulse control.

I cannot sweep away LE believing Terri to be involved in Kyron's disappearance and in the attempt to have Kaine murdered. I think there is a great deal against Terri already. But, they are hoping to find the little one's body first...just as Scott Peterson roamed around before his wife and baby "came home" to see he PAID for his crime.

Whether the LS is here legally or not, does not weigh on his credibility to me...if LE SAYS he is credible...that works for me.

This is a helpless child, unable to "tell us" anything. Until Terri is cleared, I would not let her anywhere near that Baby.