Sidebar Discussion

[logicalgirl]

Well, actually ...


Kettle of fish

Meaning

This term is usually part of 'a fine kettle of fish', 'a pretty kettle of fish' etc, which mean 'a muddle or awkward state of affairs'. The expression 'a different kettle of fish' has, as seems fitting, a different meaning, which is 'an alternative; a different thing altogether'.

Origin

Being English, I have a close association with kettles - essential equipment for a custom that the English can still claim world dominance, the making of 'a nice cup of tea'. Tea-kettles were first named in the early 18th century; until then 'kettle' referred to any vessel for boiling water. The noun 'kettle of fish' is listed by several reference works as dating from 1745, although the earliest actual citation of the term in print that I can find is in Thomas Newte's A tour in England and Scotland in 1785:

"It is customary for the gentlemen who live near the Tweed to entertain their neighbours and friends with a Fete Champetre, which they call giving 'a kettle of fish'. Tents or marquees are pitched near the flowery banks of the river... a fire is kindled, and live salmon thrown into boiling kettles."

The French term fête-champêtre, meaning 'rural feast', was still in use at the time to describe outdoor meals. The word 'picnic' (also French - 'pique-nique') was introduced in the late 18th century but wasn't widely used until the end of the century.

Why a kettle of fish was chosen to represent a muddle or mess isn't clear. It may be an allusion to the confusion of bones, head and skin that is left after the fish has been eaten. It may also be that 'a pretty kettle of fish' was just pure invention, along the lines of 'a pretty pickle'. The earliest uses of the phrase, which apparently are examples of the 'muddle' meaning come from Henry Fielding and pre-date the fête-champêtre citation above. In The history of the adventures of Joseph Andrews, 1742, he writes:

"'Here's a pretty kettle of fish', cries Mrs. Tow-wouse."

and, in The history of Tom Jones, 1749:

"Fine doings at my house! A rare kettle of fish I have discovered at last."

If those examples from Fielding aren't entirely clear in their meaning we do get an unambiguous explanation of the phrase in Francis Grose’s Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue, 1811:

"When a person has perplexed his affairs in general, or any particular business, he is said to have made a fine kettle of fish of it."

'A different kettle of fish' is much later and is known since the 1920s. By that time 'kettle of fish' had been appropriated to mean simply 'state of affairs'.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/kettle-of-fish.html

Outstanding - thank you! A muddle or a mess of affairs - and one that smells a bit then? :floorlaugh: Perfect - sometimes these expressions have me :waitasec: and I think - WTH?

 

[logicalgirl]

Yes, that part was always puzzling. So was the cleaning of the car. After all, unless both GA and CA strongly suspected KC of harming Caylee, why clean the car. They could be destroying evidence that could nail another culprit responsible for Caylee's murder . Yet , they kept proclaiming that KC would not harm their granddaughter. A cover up from day 1, starting on July 15 2008 and then went into high gear after DP was put on the table.

Because it stunk? And they expected FCA to be driving it again with Caylee?

 

[logicalgirl]

:coffeews: OT but I have to add to this because I just heard it an hour ago on TV... we're not who we are because of what happened to us in the past. We are who we are because of how we respond to what happened to us in the past. I thought that was pretty poignant, and doesn't allow us to play the victim all our lives.

Oh Boy - there's the rational emotive therapy(RET), now known a cognitive therapy at work again - the story of my life - no excuses - sigh.....

 

[natsound]

Yes, that part was always puzzling. So was the cleaning of the car. After all, unless both GA and CA strongly suspected KC of harming Caylee, why clean the car. They could be destroying evidence that could nail another culprit responsible for Caylee's murder . Yet , they kept proclaiming that KC would not harm their granddaughter. A cover up from day 1, starting on July 15 2008 and then went into high gear after DP was put on the table.

IMO, it's a much larger stretch to think that they cleaned it with the forethought that their daughter killed their granddaughter and they had to conveniently destroy evidence... than to think CA cleaned it because it stunk horribly.

 

[natsound]

Well, I have been pizzed at George a bunch of times throughout this whole thing. In my mind, he seemed like the most likely person to stand up for Caylee and there were too many times that I felt he did not do that or did it only to a degree before pulling back. George loved Caylee, I have no doubt about that. George knew immediately what the smell in the car was but, IMO, he did not know immediately what the smell being there meant.

IOW, George said his little prayer for Caylee and Casey being OK as soon as he smelled the car. To me, that was instinctive on his part. He smelled a smell that he was familiar with as the smell of death, and that smell was in his daughter's car. His daughter was not present, and her daughter also was not present. Yet both had left together in that car. I think George's mind was working quickly but I think that at that time he was thinking more like a father than a cop.

I believe that even if George knew subconsciously that Caylee might have died, he didn't know that Casey was responsible. I do not think at that time he had any reason to consider that as a first possible scenario. But, I do believe it did not take George long to realize the situation for what it really was.

At trial I think George testified in hope of finding justice for Caylee. I am not sure what exactly his relationship was with River Cruz or if he was being totally honest about it. But his body language, the sound of his voice, and the look on his face when on the witness stand having to answer questions about molesting Casey told me all I needed to know about that particular subject. There is just no way that any of that happened, IMO. Also, every time George speaks of his feelings for Caylee and how he misses her, I believe him 100%.

George lied some in his depositions. He may or may not have had an affair with RC. He may have been looking at sites on the internet. He certainly acted like a lunatic at times--swinging sticks or whatever around out in his yard, yelling at media about how it had not been his granddaughter in that car when he had to know better...among other things.

I understand a father can be very angry with his daughter for what she has said or done, to the point of their relationship being permanently fractured. But that does not mean that father will forsake his daughter or that he wants to see her put to death for her crime, even a crime as heinous as this was.

George is Casey's father--that will never change. What has changed is that for the time being he is not her Dad.

ITA! I think CA and GA's denial was fueled by the fact that neither KC nor Caylee were in the back of the car, and the fact that the tow yard man didn't insist the smell was a dead body. It "bought them more denial time", if that makes sense.

 

[crimesnooper]

And something else that SB (River's sister) mentioned in her deposition was that River was living with her boyfriend. He worked in real estate, left the house around 9 and was back sometime after 4pm. So how did that work out with GA going over to her condo. I suppose GA could have gone over anytime between 9 and 4 but we were led to believe GA was over there at night when he was suppose to be working. Plus would you chance having an affair with someone when you know your live-in boyfriend could just pop in at any time. GA had to sign in and was pulling that big sign all over town at the time. It just does not make a lot of sense that he would be having an affair with someone and not be worried about being caught. It's not as if the A's were not being hounded for interviews by the media. They were easily identifiable. When RC changed her testimony in favor of the defense I said I smell a rat. But that is just me. jmo

TA And I think the chances of a man in his 50s suffering from severe strees and depression would be, shall we say, capable of a full fledge affair.

 

[rotterdam]

IMO, it's a much larger stretch to think that they cleaned it with the forethought that their daughter killed their granddaughter and they had to conveniently destroy evidence... than to think CA cleaned it because it stunk horribly.

Hard to tell. All speculation anyway. I suspect the whole gang, except KC, was in panic mode and were functioning basically on auto pilot. Did not they both go to work afterwards? I just can not imagine them doing that if they were pretty sure that something terrible happened to Caylee.

 

[LambChop]

TA And I think the chances of a man in his 50s suffering from severe strees and depression would be, shall we say, capable of a full fledge affair.

I'm not saying he isn't. What I'm saying is RC presented herself, originally, as a person who felt sorry for GA and was trying to help. In her original statement to LE I did not get the impression that her boyfriend was living with her only supporting her. When you start to put the pieces together there is a lot that just does not make sense. RC first claimed nothing happened between the two of them she just wanted his friendship. Next thing you know she is changing her story for the NE mag. for which she was paid and now they had an affair. I'm thinking NE did not want to hear there was no affair. In any case, her testimony was discredited because she admitted lying and she should have never been permitted to testify. When people start changing their stories because there is money involved I just don't find anything they say as credible. There were soooo many liars in this case no wonder the jury was confused.

Another thing that is weird. RC's sister was arrested for pawning stolen jewelry from a neighbor's home. RC's sister used RC's DL as ID. Who does not carry around their license all the time, but yet her sister had her ID information. The only reason they nailed the sister is because her fingerprints were on the card. So the sister gets out of jail after spending time with KC and RC welcomes her sister back with open arms. If that were me after her serving 5 months in jail or not I would still not be talking to her.

So your sister stole jewelry from a neighbor, tried to set you up with the pawn shop and here you are with extra money you have lying around and you open your arms to your sister as if nothing happened. Your sister stole your ID but you are not worried about any money you happened to have that she could get her hands on. Something very unsettling about that whole thing. jmo

 

[natsound]

Hard to tell. All speculation anyway. I suspect the whole gang, except KC, was in panic mode and were functioning basically on auto pilot. Did not they both go to work afterwards? I just can not imagine them doing that if they were pretty sure that something terrible happened to Caylee.

Definitely all speculation. Definitely they were on autopilot. That's an extraordinary situation to be in. I can't imagine how I would have reacted.

 

[MsMacGyver]

I'm not saying he isn't. What I'm saying is RC presented herself, originally, as a person who felt sorry for GA and was trying to help. In her original statement to LE I did not get the impression that her boyfriend was living with her only supporting her. When you start to put the pieces together there is a lot that just does not make sense. RC first claimed nothing happened between the two of them she just wanted his friendship. Next thing you know she is changing her story for the NE mag. for which she was paid and now they had an affair. I'm thinking NE did not want to hear there was no affair. In any case, her testimony was discredited because she admitted lying and she should have never been permitted to testify. When people start changing their stories because there is money involved I just don't find anything they say as credible. There were soooo many liars in this case no wonder the jury was confused.

Another thing that is weird. RC's sister was arrested for pawning stolen jewelry from a neighbor's home. RC's sister used RC's DL as ID. Who does not carry around their license all the time, but yet her sister had her ID information. The only reason they nailed the sister is because her fingerprints were on the card. So the sister gets out of jail after spending time with KC and RC welcomes her sister back with open arms. If that were me after her serving 5 months in jail or not I would still not be talking to her.

So your sister stole jewelry from a neighbor, tried to set you up with the pawn shop and here you are with extra money you have lying around and you open your arms to your sister as if nothing happened. Your sister stole your ID but you are not worried about any money you happened to have that she could get her hands on. Something very unsettling about that whole thing. jmo

I agree..I think RC was doing what everyone else was, using GA as a target. She inserted herself into this case for her 15 minutes of fame. Did she have any history of volunteering? I'll never understand why she was allowed to testify and worse hearing the TH actually interview her and some even saying she was credible...WHAT!...Was everyone blind?...I think the A's showed poor judgement because they were so desperate to find people to support their side, another situation that came back to bite them. Where was LA and why wasn't he guiding his parents in that situation?

 

[strawberry]

@bobkealing
bob kealing
Yes“@MARDY09: @bobkealing I asked you earlier if Wesh will be live streaming the hearing Wed about releasing the remains video?”

 

[krkrjx]

I agree..I think RC was doing what everyone else was, using GA as a target. She inserted herself into this case for her 15 minutes of fame. Did she have any history of volunteering? I'll never understand why she was allowed to testify and worse hearing the TH actually interview her and some even saying she was credible...WHAT!...Was everyone blind?...I think the A's showed poor judgement because they were so desperate to find people to support their side, another situation that came back to bite them. Where was LA and why wasn't he guiding his parents in that situation?

I, too, do not know why she was allowed to testify. If all she was there to do was tell what GA had said, why not just ask GA under oath what he said? Her testifying to it was hearsay, so why even allow it! Considering the judge's statement that a trial is about getting to the truth, RC testifying while Jesse Grund was not allowed to is just not kosher, IMO.

 

[strawberry]

Oh my. Just got home and checked Twitter to see how Dancing with the Stars went. Apparently NG had a Elaine Nip moment. Someone even tweeted a closeup!

 

[MsMacGyver]

I, too, do not know why she was allowed to testify. If all she was there to do was tell what GA had said, why not just ask GA under oath what he said? Her testifying to it was hearsay, so why even allow it! Considering the judge's statement that a trial is about getting to the truth, RC testifying while Jesse Grund was not allowed to is just not kosher, IMO.

One of those... he said ...she said things. I wish the state had thrown every witness they could out there. JA outclassed JB ten times over. The state should have drug the trial out until after the holiday was over. It was obvious even from the DT reaction when the verdict was read that everyone was shocked at the outcome. JB thinks Aruba is his next big shining moment, has he looked at his client lately, not young, not female but he does own a big house.

 

[MsMacGyver]

Oh my. Just got home and checked Twitter to see how Dancing with the Stars went. Apparently NG had a Elaine Nip moment. Someone even tweeted a closeup!

I told my daughter last week she was going to fall out of that skimpy outfit...:floorlaugh:

 

[strawberry]

I told my daughter last week she was going to fall out of that skimpy outfit...:floorlaugh:

She and Tot Mom are twins in the bust department.

 

[logicalgirl]

Oh my. Just got home and checked Twitter to see how Dancing with the Stars went. Apparently NG had a Elaine Nip moment. Someone even tweeted a closeup!

Um....Elaine Nip moment? Flashing her girls???? Nancy Grace??

 

[logicalgirl]

TA And I think the chances of a man in his 50s suffering from severe strees and depression would be, shall we say, capable of a full fledge affair.

er....did you mean incapable.....:giggle:

 

[krkrjx]

One of those... he said ...she said things. I wish the state had thrown every witness they could out there. JA outclassed JB ten times over. The state should have drug the trial out until after the holiday was over. It was obvious even from the DT reaction when the verdict was read that everyone was shocked at the outcome. JB thinks Aruba is his next big shining moment, has he looked at his client lately, not young, not female but he does own a big house.

I thought Casey might slide on the Murder One charge but never expected she would not be found guilty of 2nd Degree or Aggravated Manslaughter. At the very least 31 days of not reporting your child missing is child abuse!

That jury wanted to go home, period. They didn't care about anything else. It took the leaders several hours to convince all the holdouts for guilty to change their votes, and that's all they did with their time in that deliberation room. They never deliberated because if they had, serious discussion would have ensued and they would have been there much longer, which is exactly what the leaders didn't want.

I agree 100% that the DT was just as shocked at the verdict as most everyone else. There is no way that if JB is honest with himself he believes he got Casey acquitted.

 

[Just K]

Oh my. Just got home and checked Twitter to see how Dancing with the Stars went. Apparently NG had a Elaine Nip moment. Someone even tweeted a closeup!

Popcrunch has a picture of it!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAhAHA!