Similar Crime Scenes

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  • #21
I heard about that one. Crowe, I think the name was.

I have something for you, Eagle1. Sprocket (I think) at another forum found an interesting stat: apparently, a good portion of children killed by parents are killed by ligature strangulation. Something like 15% I think.
 
  • #22
angelwngs said:
I'm bouncing all over the field and over the fence and then back again. I think I may need to stop posting and just lurk for the next ten years....;)
LMAO...you describe me exactly. I even tried to get someone to design me a 'sitting on the fence' smiley!! I have taken the route you suggest, I am lurking now, reading, watching, learning....for the next ten years ;)
 
  • #23
I found more threads regarding the Cold Case Files episode I saw. It wasn't BTK and the Oteros, it was Anthony Shore and he did use garrottes to murder his victims. The crime scenes were very similar. Where was he in December 1996? He apparently worked for Southern Bell Telephone Company (SBTC) in the past. It seems so did John Ramsey at one time. I wonder if he also may have been a mountain climber. The knot used for for ascending a mountain is a Prusik knot, a similar knot used on JonBenet. Hmm -- Colorado -- mountains?? So much more to investigate here. Lots to read under the Anthony Shore posts and the JonBenet murder. After watching Lou Smit the other night on TV, my theory is that it was supposed to be a kidnapping and the ransom note was written by the killer while the Ramsey's were at the White's. It all went bad when he couldn't get her in the suitcase and out the window. He really only wanted JonBenet not the money. He was obsessed with her. He carried out his fantasy in the basement when he couldn't get her out. Then he struck the final blow
in his sick mind thinking he was putting her out of her misery. A very mentally ill person. Will we ever know the truth??
 
  • #24
To me, there are some eerie similarities between this very old murder case and the JBR case:

http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=1051

True, the victim in this case was 22. But JBR, though only six, had been taught to act like an adult woman for the pageants, and may have been seen by her abuser as 'fair game.'
 
  • #25
Here is a cached page of the old Websleuths with lots of comments/posts regarding the possible Anthony Shore/JonBenet connection. It's good reading! Very interesting......I, too, would love to know where he was back in 1996. I was going to search online for Boulder County Court Cases just to see if he had any civil or criminal record there, but it's a pay site & I'm not going to pay.

Anyway, here's the link.


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-36551
 
  • #26
Anthony Shore murdered 5 females, one included a 9 year old little girl. The authorities have only convicted him of these five. I am sure he is guilty of many
more, truth be known. He is an animal. I just read that the 9 year old was murdered on August 7th. JonBennet's birthday was August 6th. May have no meaning whatsoever, but still, you must admit very coincidental to be a day off.
I think there is window (a couple of hours) for exact time of death. Possibly, he planned the murder on August 6th, yet day of death was deemed August 7th. Purely speculation on my part.

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/shoreanthony.htm
 
  • #27
  • #28
I read (where?) that there is to this day a weekly check of DNA found on JonBenet (I think it is the DNA from underwear) the JonBenet via a National DNA data bank. I do not know how much truth if any there is to this. So, none of this can be considered close to factual. Does anyone know anything about what I have just said?

If what I said is true, and if JonBenet was killed by an intruder, the intruder has apparently not managed to get his DNA on a National base yet. Anthony Shore's DNA has been on a National DNA data base for some time. That would tend to eliminate him as a suspect.

But, I am very interested knowing about other cases similar to JonBenet's. I am in the, "explore all possibilities, learn all I can stage". Until I have enough information, I have no opinion on who did it.

Lion
 
  • #29
This case is not a cold case but a solved case.

Although not entirely similar to JonBenet's death, many features found in the Ramsey case exist in this case. e.g. domestic homicide, parent a suspect, staging attempted, sexual assault, forensic evidence removed i.e. sheets washed.

I've highlighted some aspects that are similar in JonBenet's case:
Autopsy findings led police back to Wilson
Regina Garvie
The Tuttle Times

TUTTLE — Editor’s note: Some of the information included in this story was taken from the trial transcript of Steven Wilson. It was edited carefully, however, some of the material is still intense.

Mike Anderson was two blocks away from the police department when the call came in. It was a little after 6 a.m. on the morning of May 12, 1982. Officer Anderson was called to the station, where the dispatcher told him that a man had just phoned, saying he had just found one of his children dead.

Anderson told the dispatcher to call the city’s emergency medical technicians and the chief of police. Then he drove to the house. When he arrived, he was met by Steven Wilson, who had called the police. Anderson later testified that he smelled a foul odor at the house, which was cluttered and messy. Wilson led Anderson back to his stepdaughter’s room, where the child lay still and quiet.

“I walked up to the girl which was in bed and felt her arm and it was cold and discolored,” Anderson said. “And presumably she had been dead for a little while.” Anderson checked on the other child in the home, a four-year-old boy, who was sleeping soundly in the master bedroom.

Anderson noted that the outside of the house was completely secure, with the exception of the master bedroom, where the window on the south side was open half way.

“I thought that was odd because it had been raining all night long,” Anderson said. “And there was a foul odor in the room where the body was found, and a fan on the windowsill - it seemed like on full blast pointing at the body and running.”

EMT Gary Forbis arrived shortly after Anderson arrived, along with his assistant tech, John Turner. After countless accidents and death scenes, Forbis now has a hard time remembering every case he worked. But he still has memories of little Audra Matheny.

“I remember getting the call and going to the house,” Forbis said. “Something just wasn’t right about the scene. You make so many calls and you get a sixth sense of what’s right and what’s wrong.”

Forbis and Turner found Audra’s body laying on her right side, facing east. Forbis did a primary examination of the child and there was no respiration and her pupils were dilated and nonreactive to light. Forbis and Turner also checked for blood pressure and hooked her up to an EKG unit, but there were no signs of life.


During a secondary examination, Forbis noted that there was a stiffness in the jaws, neck and extremities that he associated with rigor mortis. There was postmortem lividity (settling of the blood) present on the right side of the body.

“There was mucus and blood coming out both nostrils and the mouth,” Forbis said months later, on the witness stand. “There was also blood stains on the pajamas - at the seat of the pajamas.” Forbis said that he saw a bruise on Audra’s left side, on her back, and scratches running in an outward angle from the center of her buttocks.


Steve Wilson told Forbis that Audra had been sick over the last three weeks, and that she had been missing school. Wilson said she had been taking Chlor-Trimeton and Anacin, and showed the Chlor-Trimeton box to Forbis.

Forbis and Turner were finishing up their examination when Chief of Police Kevin Coder arrived. The officers questioned Wilson about the last time he saw Audra alive, and what he remembered about the previous night. He told them that she had been sick for several days, and he heard her coughing and wheezing through the night. He said that he had woken up at 6 a.m., went to wake her up for school, and found her dead.

While the police talked to Wilson, Forbis contacted the medical examiner’s office at Grady Memorial Hospital in Chickasha. The examiner, Dr. Elaine Soter, requested that the body be transported to the hospital for examination. Forbis waited until the officers were finished with their initial investigation, then placed Audra in the ambulance and took her to Chickasha.

Anderson left the home at about 8:30 a.m., then went to Tuttle Upper Elementary and talked to principal James Cobble about checking Audra’s attendance records, to see if they lined up with Wilson’s story. He returned to the Wilson home a little more than an hour later. Steve Wilson’s cousin’s wife, Dianna Hays, had arrived to help with the family tragedy.

Anderson said that Wilson was worried about the messy house, since police were there and relatives would be arriving. He asked if he could clean up, and Anderson told him he could. At the time, police did not know that Audra had been murdered. Wilson went to Audra’s bedroom first thing, stripped the sheets, and put them in the washing machine. It was a move that would later be questioned.

While her stepfather was washing her sheets, Audra’s body was being examined at Chickasha. Her body had arrived at the hospital at about 8 a.m., according to Dr. Elaine Soter, who was on duty at the time. During Soter’s first examination, she noted that rigor mortis was complete, and due to the degree of lividity, the body seemed to have been on its right side for some time.

“The first impression I had upon the child is that she had a copious amount of froth around the face, and around the nose and mouth,” Soter would later testify. “And I was a little bit puzzled about it at that time because I was told that she died in her sleep and that there was apparently no sound whatsoever - no struggle whatsoever.”

Soter said that in her experience, anyone who has that amount of fluid coming from the nose and mouth had been in extreme respiratory distress and wouldn’t just lie in a quiet position.

“It just didn’t fit the picture,” she said.


Audra had not died quietly in her bed. In addition to the blood and froth from the nose and mouth, Dr. Soter noted bluish discoloration around the mouth, bruises on the upper arms, back and legs, various small abrasions, and blood coming from the vagina.


“I was extremely suspicious as to whether this child actually died in her sleep,” Soter said. “I notified the State Medical Examiner’s office and told them that we had a child here that was - that died of a suspicious nature.” Soter authorized the state office to perform an autopsy.

Dr. A.J. Chapman performed that autopsy that same day, at 12:35 p.m. He noted that at the time of death, Audra was slightly less than 63 inches long and weighed 100 pounds, and rigor mortis was complete and beginning to wane, or pass off. Chapman also noted and photographed a place where Audra or a friend had apparently written a note on her 11-year-old hand, although it was faded and hard to read. The letters were “ah” followed by “hu” and the words “you do so dee.”

The childish markings stood in stark contrast to what Chapman found during the autopsy.

Audra had internal tears and abrasions that had been caused by a sexual attack, Chapman later testified.

Chapman said that the tears and abrasions were from at or near the time of death, and that he believed the hymen had been torn during the attack. He said there were no indications that intercourse had taken place before the night she died.

Chapman also found what was believed to be the cause of death. Audra had irregular areas of abrasion on the nose, abrasions and hemorrhages on the lips, a bruise by her hairline and small hemorrhages in the linings of the eyes on the eyelids. Based on his findings, Chapman testified that Audra had smothered to death while being sexually assaulted.

At 1:30 p.m. that same day, Steve Wilson was arrested by Tuttle police for Audra’s murder. Four-year-old Sean Wilson was at home at the time, and he never forgot seeing the police put his daddy in handcuffs and lead him away.

Wilson was taken to the Grady County District Attorney’s office, where he was interviewed by assistant D.A. Larry Kirkland, Kevin Coder, and deputy sheriffs Terry Cunningham and Tom Edwards. Wilson later testified that he asked for an attorney at that point, but was told one would have to be appointed.

Wilson told the men his recollection of the previous night. He remembered that at 5:30 p.m. or 6 p.m., he took Sean to Williams IGA to buy hamburger meat, buns, milk and groceries. They came home, then barbecued outside at around 7 p.m. A 3-D movie, “Gorilla at Large,” was showing on T.V., on channel 25, and the children watched the movie in the master bedroom while Wilson finished cooking dinner. They ate during the movie, at around 8 p.m.

The movie ended at around 9 p.m., Wilson said, and then another show started on HBO at 9:15 p.m. Wilson said that Audra watched a little of that and then said she was going to go to bed. He estimated that she went bed around 9:35 p.m. or 9:40 p.m., and he and Sean continued to watch television in the master bedroom.

Wilson said that the next time he heard her was between 11 p.m. and midnight.

“I was drowsy,” Wilson told the authorities during the interview. “I was half asleep and she just went to the bathroom and coughed and gagged a little bit and it sounded like she was going to throw up, and she walked back, and I said, ‘Are you all right?’ and she said ‘I feel sick,’ and then she went back into her room and she laid down, and I did not go into her room and check on her.”

Larry Kirkland asked Wilson if he wanted to change his story, since the medical examiner had shown that Audra had been dead before 11 p.m., and Wilson said that he would not change what he was saying.

At an unrecorded date or time, chief Coder also interviewed Wilson’s son, Sean, about what happened that night. The four-year-old told him that they all went to bed right after the movie in daddy’s bed, and that Sean slept on the south side and his father was on the north side, and Audra was in the middle. He did not remember Audra getting up in the night or anything, but he remembered his father getting up and taking a bath.

After Steve Wilson’s interview at the D.A.s office, he was taken to Grady Memorial Hospital, where samples of his saliva, blood and head and pubic hair were taken.

Coder said that when we walked in the examination room, Wilson said, “I tried to help Audra breathe. You know, I don’t understand all of this.”

Wilson later testified that he was asked about taking a polygraph test while at the hospital, and he said he didn’t want to take any test without talking to an attorney, and then he would follow his attorney’s advice. Wilson said that he was told that they could get the test administered through a court order, and he told them that he didn’t care what they got, he wanted an attorney.

Both Terry Cunningham and Kevin Coder testified that Wilson never asked for an attorney until after they left the hospital, at which time he said, “I’m going to get me an attorney and get the D.A.”

Two days after Wilson’s arrest, Terry Cunningham testified under oath that Steve Wilson had told him that he did not have intercourse with Audra, but that they did have sexual relationships that night.

“He advised that if he penetrated her it would have been by accident,” Cunningham testified. “He did have oral sex with her and he advised that he took the sheets off of his bed after it happened because they did have blood on them. I asked him where the blood came from; he advised he didn’t know.” Cunningham said that Wilson told him this in the jury room upstairs in the county courthouse.

After leaving the hospital, Wilson was taken to the Grady County Jail. His initial court appearance was held May 14, 1982, two days after his arrest. Wilson’s father retained attorney Ken Johnston to represent Wilson only a few hours before the appearance began. Assistant District Attorney Larry Kirkland appeared on behalf of the state, and Ken Johnston appeared on behalf of Steven Wilson. Witnesses were Kevin Coder and Terry Cunningham. After the proceedings, Judge Oteka L. Alford denied Wilson’s request for bail and ordered he be held in the county jail throughout his trial. The trial would not be complete until Monday, Nov. 22, 1982 - six months later.
 
  • #30
Good point! Yes his DNA has not been linked. Hope they are looking into the possibility of it being someone connected to mountain job/hobby --someone who would be educated in making various knots. JBR (father) was in the Navy, but I still believe the Ramsey's innocent.
 
  • #31
I think that whoever killed JonBenet was at least somewhat of a, "Mcgyver"(sp?) to have fashioned a make-shift garrotte.


Lion
 
  • #32
I am fairly certain that Anthony Shore was incarcerated at the time of JonBenét's death.
 
  • #33
I just read an email notification which doesn't seem to be posted yet, very very interesting.

Is Shore still alive? Was he in prison at the time? I expect there are lots more just like him, may google him. One thing, why wouldn't a perp just go out one of the many doors, so much easier than a window, just because it wasn't located in neighbor's view? Because there was a spider web on the grate, I don't much think the window had anything to do with things. Didn't FW say he moved the suitcase over to the window and put some broken glass on it? That does seem odd. Didn't it occur to him that people would think he had reason to be staging, to make it look like someone had used the window? Just an absent-minded something to do I guess, but if one of the R's had done it we'd be making a big deal of it. (Not saying they haven't lied and participated in covering up, were trapped one way or another, by whatever was going on with the friends if not direct guilt.)
 
  • #34
Eagle1 said:
One thing, why wouldn't a perp just go out one of the many doors, so much easier than a window, just because it wasn't located in neighbor's view?
John did say on pg. 366 of DOI that the butler pantry/kitchen door, which led to the outside, was found unlocked and open.
Didn't FW say he moved the suitcase over to the window and put some broken glass on it? That does seem odd.
PMPT pg. 34 (hb version)- On the floor under the window, he found small pieces of glass. He placed some of them on the windowsill. Then he moved the suitcase a few feet to get a closer look at the window.


-Tea
 
  • #35
roseofsharon said:
I found more threads regarding the Cold Case Files episode I saw. It wasn't BTK and the Oteros, it was Anthony Shore and he did use garrottes to murder his victims. The crime scenes were very similar. Where was he in December 1996? He apparently worked for Southern Bell Telephone Company (SBTC) in the past. It seems so did John Ramsey at one time. I wonder if he also may have been a mountain climber. The knot used for for ascending a mountain is a Prusik knot, a similar knot used on JonBenet. Hmm -- Colorado -- mountains?? So much more to investigate here. Lots to read under the Anthony Shore posts and the JonBenet murder. After watching Lou Smit the other night on TV, my theory is that it was supposed to be a kidnapping and the ransom note was written by the killer while the Ramsey's were at the White's. It all went bad when he couldn't get her in the suitcase and out the window. He really only wanted JonBenet not the money. He was obsessed with her. He carried out his fantasy in the basement when he couldn't get her out. Then he struck the final blow
in his sick mind thinking he was putting her out of her misery. A very mentally ill person. Will we ever know the truth??

If he didn't want the money, why'd he ask for it? If all he wanted was JBR, why leave a note at all?
 
  • #36
I am on the fence exploring all possibilities. Two reasons to leave a ransom note when there was no actual kidnapping involved would be:


To create a diversion to kill time--whomever the perp may be. In other words, to give the perp time before JonBenet's body would be discovered. A ransom note would make it less likely that that an initial thorough search of that complicated house would occur.

To cause confusion concerning the true motive (s) for the murder.

Lion
 
  • #37
LionRun said:
I am on the fence exploring all possibilities. Two reasons to leave a ransom note when there was no actual kidnapping involved would be:


To create a diversion to kill time--whomever the perp may be. In other words, to give the perp time before JonBenet's body would be discovered. A ransom note would make it less likely that that an initial thorough search of that complicated house would occur.

To cause confusion concerning the true motive (s) for the murder.

Lion
Another reason I've read about that ties in with your diversionary ideas above- using it almost as an "alarm." In other words, assuming that a parent finding the note would make enough noise so as to warn the intruder, enabling him to get out before getting caught.
 
  • #38
LionRun said:
I am on the fence exploring all possibilities. Two reasons to leave a ransom note when there was no actual kidnapping involved would be:


To create a diversion to kill time--whomever the perp may be. In other words, to give the perp time before JonBenet's body would be discovered. A ransom note would make it less likely that that an initial thorough search of that complicated house would occur.

To cause confusion concerning the true motive (s) for the murder.

Lion

LionRun,

You could consider whether the crime-scene was to be staged outdoors, where JonBenet's corpse would be dumped, thereby validating the ransom-note. But this was abandoned in favor of an intruder scenario down in the basement, and the ransom-note still plays the role of diversionary tactic, gaining time, while the perpetrator books a flight or taxi, hoping to flee the crime-scene and travel interstate, then leave the USofA to evade legal jurisdiction?


Early on the morning of the 26th John Ramsey was overheard phoning his pilot to schedule a flight.


.
 
  • #39
UKGuy said:
This case is not a cold case but a solved case.



Although not entirely similar to JonBenet's death, many features found in the Ramsey case exist in this case. e.g. domestic homicide, parent a suspect, staging attempted, sexual assault, forensic evidence removed i.e. sheets washed.

I've highlighted some aspects that are similar in JonBenet's case:
UKGuy,

The case is so interesting in that it is so similar, the injuries, etc. IMO, what we have here is John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey hiring the best lawyers to do the best deception. Also, John Ramsey, in his suits and his very calm manner, does not look the type. Every time I see him, I say this man did this???? He looks so sincere and so far from the David Westerfields of the world. Patsy is more believable as a perpertrator because one can look at her and say "I can see her losing her temper". This is the way most people see this case, I believe.

They did an excellent job. Also, it is so hard to believe that they would keep such a high profile, as the day I saw them literally running across the street hand in hand to announce that Patsy passed her lie detector test. She looks enthralled with the whole scenario. She could not have looked happier and I will be honest, I felt she came across as very likable.

But after all of it, when I come back to the case, there is no evidence of anyone else and lots of evidence pointing towards them.

The case you posted is fascinating because the injuries are practically the same; it is so similar to Jon Benet and there is just no ignoring that JonBenet was molested.

For some reason, John Ramsey is adamant that there were no FBI on the scene and Bill Kurtis opens his documentary with Ron Wood (I Believe that is his name) FBI, saying he was there. So why does John continue with that. In his latest interview, he repeated it.

Thanks for your post UK. Let me know why you think John Ramsey tries to put out the lie that the FBI was NOT there.:cool:
 
  • #40
roseofsharon said:
I found more threads regarding the Cold Case Files episode I saw. It wasn't BTK and the Oteros, it was Anthony Shore and he did use garrottes to murder his victims. The crime scenes were very similar. Where was he in December 1996? He apparently worked for Southern Bell Telephone Company (SBTC) in the past. It seems so did John Ramsey at one time. I wonder if he also may have been a mountain climber. The knot used for for ascending a mountain is a Prusik knot, a similar knot used on JonBenet. Hmm -- Colorado -- mountains?? So much more to investigate here. Lots to read under the Anthony Shore posts and the JonBenet murder. After watching Lou Smit the other night on TV, my theory is that it was supposed to be a kidnapping and the ransom note was written by the killer while the Ramsey's were at the White's. It all went bad when he couldn't get her in the suitcase and out the window. He really only wanted JonBenet not the money. He was obsessed with her. He carried out his fantasy in the basement when he couldn't get her out. Then he struck the final blow
in his sick mind thinking he was putting her out of her misery. A very mentally ill person. Will we ever know the truth??
Well,if he came IN through the window,(as the IDI's say,since it was broken),then right then and there he would have realized he couldnt get her out that way.The suitcase was the R's.How could an intruder that planned a KN even know that??
The IDI theory is too far-fetched,IMO.
But you're entitled to your opinion,which is why I don't debate it.
 
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