Since Sandy Hook, 1,000 kids under age 12 have died from guns

[Tawny]

Actually, a conviction of any domestic violence, even misdemeanor, will result in prohibition of gun ownership or possession pursuant to the Lautenbeg amendment. There probably needs to be better education on this so that people know they can lose their gun rights for even pretty minor offenses.

Thanks for educating me on that! I'll have to look into that some more. It's good to know. And yes, there definitely needs to be more education (or publicity?) on that and follow up on offenders. I wonder how they could work to enforce that more?

 

[Tawny]

Here's a novel idea. How about we focus on the CRIMINALS with the penalties, regulations, and restrictions, instead of penalizing the LAW ABIDING people who haven't done anything wrong? Might that not make kids under 12 a bit safer from firearm deaths? I think it would.

Except that it wouldn't considering it's more often than not a law abiding citizen whose children are harmed or killed by unsecured weapons in the home.

 

[Caffeine]

I don't think there is any "one size fits all" answer to any of this; the only real solution is a systematic approach to stopping different facets of gun violence.

I'm not going to argue that accidents from firearms not properly secured isn't a reality but, the violent crime from people with stolen or unlawfully obtained guns seems to greatly outnumber accidents and should be the primary focus.

Not that negligence shouldn't be taken lightly, but I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of these accidents are from the same people who we are fighting to keep guns out of their hands, due to felonies or other convictions and they have simply taken it upon themselves to obtain a weapon in an illegal manner.

 

[Tawny]

I don't think there is any "one size fits all" answer to any of this; the only real solution is a systematic approach to stopping different facets of gun violence.

I'm not going to argue that accidents from firearms not properly secured isn't a reality but, the violent crime from people with stolen or unlawfully obtained guns seems to greatly outnumber accidents and should be the primary focus.

Not that negligence shouldn't be taken lightly, but I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of these accidents are from the same people who we are fighting to keep guns out of their hands, due to felonies or other convictions and they have simply taken it upon themselves to obtain a weapon in an illegal manner.

Do you have a link to substantiate this? I'd be interested in reading up on it. TIA!

 

[Caffeine]

Do you have a link to substantiate this? I'd be interested in reading up on it. TIA!

On mobile right now but here's a few things to consider, first this study by an epidemiologist in Pittsburgh looked at all firearm crime for one year in the city and found the vast majority was committed with stolen/illegally owned guns (from WaPo) https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...have-been-saying-for-a-long-time-about-crime/

In 2013 there were 10k+ firearm homicides in the US, compared to 505 accidental or negligent shootings that resulted in death. Lots of surprising stats, I didn't realize how truly bad the suicide rate was either, which is another area that needs help as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

 

[human]

On mobile right now but here's a few things to consider, first this study by an epidemiologist in Pittsburgh looked at all firearm crime for one year in the city and found the vast majority was committed with stolen/illegally owned guns (from WaPo) https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...have-been-saying-for-a-long-time-about-crime/

In 2013 there were 10k+ firearm homicides in the US, compared to 505 accidental or negligent shootings that resulted in death. Lots of surprising stats, I didn't realize how truly bad the suicide rate was either, which is another area that needs help as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

Maybe if the people whose guns were stolen or used in a crime had to pay a penalty such as a prison sentence, this would end

 

[human]

On mobile right now but here's a few things to consider, first this study by an epidemiologist in Pittsburgh looked at all firearm crime for one year in the city and found the vast majority was committed with stolen/illegally owned guns (from WaPo) https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...have-been-saying-for-a-long-time-about-crime/

In 2013 there were 10k+ firearm homicides in the US, compared to 505 accidental or negligent shootings that resulted in death. Lots of surprising stats, I didn't realize how truly bad the suicide rate was either, which is another area that needs help as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

Lots and lots of info on guns and suicide

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...uns-johns-hopkins-united-states-a7898951.html

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I don't think there is any "one size fits all" answer to any of this; the only real solution is a systematic approach to stopping different facets of gun violence.

I'm not going to argue that accidents from firearms not properly secured isn't a reality but, the violent crime from people with stolen or unlawfully obtained guns seems to greatly outnumber accidents and should be the primary focus.

Not that negligence shouldn't be taken lightly, but I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of these accidents are from the same people who we are fighting to keep guns out of their hands, due to felonies or other convictions and they have simply taken it upon themselves to obtain a weapon in an illegal manner.

Not to mention that guns kill about 1,300 kids each year. That’s jaw-dropping and heart-breakingly sad. Even more are injured by them.

I’d even add that negligence greatly impacts gun violence when legally owned firearms aren’t safely secured, because stolen firearms feed the criminal market you mention, to the tune of several hundred thousand a year.

2017 reports:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/06/19/health/child-gun-violence-study/index.html

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/reports/2017/07/25/436533/stolen-guns-america/

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

From the above links:

(snipped — from first link) :

“A study based on data from 2012 to 2014 suggests that, on average, 5,790 children in the United States receive medical treatment in an emergency room each year for a gun-related injury. About 21% of those injuries are unintentional, similar to the third-grader's case.

“From 2012 to 2014, on average, 1,297 children died annually from a gun-related injury in the US, according to the study, published in the journal Pediatrics on Monday.”


(Snipped — from second link) :

“According to data from the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), during the four-year period from 2012 to 2015, nearly half a billion dollars worth of guns were stolen from individuals nationwide, amounting to an estimated 1.2 million guns. Twenty-two thousand guns were stolen from gun stores during this same period.

“A gun is stolen in the U.S. every two minutes.”

(snip)

“Guns stolen from gun stores and the private collections of individual gun owners pose a substantial risk to public safety. Stolen guns often end up being used in the commission of violent crime.

“During the six-year period between January 2010 and December 2015, 9,736 guns that were recovered by police in connection with a crime and traced by ATF had been reported stolen or lost from gun stores.

“A recent investigation by the Commercial Appeal of stolen guns in Memphis, Tennessee, found that of the roughly 9,100 guns reported stolen in the city between January 2011 and June 2016, 21 were later connected to homicides, 27 to robberies, 62 to aggravated assaults, and 64 to drug crimes.

“Theft is also one of the key ways that guns are diverted from the lawful market and into illegal gun trafficking networks. ATF describes burglaries of gun stores as ‘a significant source of illegally trafficked firearms’ and has noted that ‘investigative experience shows that each of those stolen firearms is almost assuredly destined for criminal use in the immediate area of the theft.’”

Lots more at links.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Geez, that second link is a long read, but it’s a trove of well-sourced data.

More:

“Individual gun owners are also targets for thieves.

“It is difficult to ascertain the exact number of guns that are stolen from individuals in the United States because many of these thefts are not reported to law enforcement.

“However, estimates from a number of survey studies indicate that roughly 200,000 to 400,000 guns are stolen from individuals each year.

“The most recent study by researchers at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and the Northeastern University Department of Health Sciences found that approximately 380,000 firearms are stolen from gun owners each year, two-thirds of which are stolen in the southern region of the United States.

“This study identified a few common traits of gun owners who are victimized by theft: Those who own many guns, those who regularly carry their guns outside their homes, and those who do not employ safe storage practices while at home face a higher risk of gun theft.”

 

[TooCurious]

Action steps we as a nation can take to help alleviate (though not entirely eliminate) the problem:

1- Require registration. There is no current database of gun owners and which firearms they own. Having a national registry would help keep track of who owns what and who shouldn't have access to firearms. The problem is that there is this belief that if there's a registry, the govt can roll in an take them all away easier.

2- Insurance. This will cover gun owners if their gun is stolen and used in a crime or in an accidental shooting. Just as with car insurance, accidents make premiums go up, nobody wants that, so they avoid accidents as best they can (more likely to secure firearms away from children). No insurance? Fines, no access to ranges, etc. If your firearm is stolen, you report it immediately, just as you would your car.

3-NO PRIVATE SALES. As it stands, in many states, a private citizen has no responsibility to report a gun sale and has no obligation to ask a person their background. You can list your gun on gun sales websites and meet people whenever and wherever to sell a firearm.

4- Take domestic violence seriously and charge, indict, and convict properly. Currently, most domestic violence leads nowhere and even if it does, it's generally a misdemeanor. Domestic violence offenders are the number one cause of gun violence in our country and there is absolutely NOTHING preventing offenders from purchasing, owning, and possessing firearms. To compound this, children raised in a domestic violent household are more likely to commit gun violence themselves.

Obviously none of this will completely eliminate homicide, just as regulations on vehicles and speed limits doesn't prevent car accidents. However, these measures DO reduce the number of vehicle related deaths, and I believe measures similar will reduce the number of firearm related deaths.

All, JMO.

1) There is no disputing that having a registry of all gun owners would make it easier to confiscate guns... Every owner of every firearm has their address listed and this wouldn't make it easier for confiscation how? The real point you are getting at is that people are afraid the government will one day try to take the guns of the population. There are people in Congress now that absolutely would pass legislation to do this. What needs to happen is have a database that cross references convicted criminals' addresses with those of people purchasing guns. Convict at in home? No sale.

2) How does having insurance keep anyone from being shot? The people responsible enough to buy and keep insurance aren't usually the ones that leave a gun lying around. The amount of guns in circulation vs the amount of deaths or instances of gun violence is so low the premiums wouldn't be higher than $10/year. This would also just add another tax to an over taxed populace, not to mention it is also a way to discourage gun ownership which infringes on Constitutional rights.

3)More kids die yearly in automobile accidents, is anyone suggesting stopping private treaty car sales? Or perhaps make every automobile have a governor or computer chip to regulate speeds, a breathalyzer to start car, Etc? No, we as a people have to be responsible with our actions and that includes making private treaty sales. However a lot of crimes are committed with stolen guns and reports that track that, any report on the amount of deaths that are attributed to private gun sales? How many lives would this save?

4) 10 or 11 years ago, maybe 12 there was a law passed doing exactly what you suggest.

Your closing, you can't compare gun ownership regulations to car speed limits and regulations. It's apples and oranges. Speed limits are for safety involving road conditions, pedestrian traffic, etc, unless you are suggesting that maybe someone is carrying a gun too fast? Since we did both compare to automobiles let's go back to #2, we all drive I assume, how many accidents has insurance prevented? Insurance is an "after the fact" way to compensate drivers, victims, but most importantly the company that holds your note. It's about money, not lives.

1-3 in this post that many liked but I am sorry, I just don't see how any of this would prevent loss of life. I do see however where all of it is a way to deter gun ownership. I am just a little concerned that this thread is even up though, why not pick the top 1 or 2 causes of deaths for children under 12 instead of #4 or 5? More young kids die (5 down) by drowning, a lot more.

In 2015, 240 gun homicides ages 14 and under and 139 suicides. Think about that, there was something like 48 million kids 11 and under in the USA, you add 12-14 in that group and you are well over 52 million. That is .0000073% of the population of kids in that age group, not a big problem but lets regulate and vilify the gun community and guns themselves. The fact that it was 5 years of data to make the number look large is disingenuous and a little offensive but hey, combat disinformation with real information.

Link to the sample year data here by the government
https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html

Link to child population here
https://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop1.asp

 

[human]

Yes, insurance works. If you speed or do other driving errors, your rates go up. If you leave keys in your car and it gets stolen, insurance may not pay. If you drive drunk, your insurance skyrockets.

Children are injured by guns. Where are those statistics? And then there is the trauma of children affected by gun violence. One does need to be the victim of the shooting in order to suffer the PTSD

 

[Tawny]

1) There is no disputing that having a registry of all gun owners would make it easier to confiscate guns... Every owner of every firearm has their address listed and this wouldn't make it easier for confiscation how? The real point you are getting at is that people are afraid the government will one day try to take the guns of the population. There are people in Congress now that absolutely would pass legislation to do this. What needs to happen is have a database that cross references convicted criminals' addresses with those of people purchasing guns. Convict at in home? No sale.

2) How does having insurance keep anyone from being shot? The people responsible enough to buy and keep insurance aren't usually the ones that leave a gun lying around. The amount of guns in circulation vs the amount of deaths or instances of gun violence is so low the premiums wouldn't be higher than $10/year. This would also just add another tax to an over taxed populace, not to mention it is also a way to discourage gun ownership which infringes on Constitutional rights.

3)More kids die yearly in automobile accidents, is anyone suggesting stopping private treaty car sales? Or perhaps make every automobile have a governor or computer chip to regulate speeds, a breathalyzer to start car, Etc? No, we as a people have to be responsible with our actions and that includes making private treaty sales. However a lot of crimes are committed with stolen guns and reports that track that, any report on the amount of deaths that are attributed to private gun sales? How many lives would this save?

4) 10 or 11 years ago, maybe 12 there was a law passed doing exactly what you suggest.

Your closing, you can't compare gun ownership regulations to car speed limits and regulations. It's apples and oranges. Speed limits are for safety involving road conditions, pedestrian traffic, etc, unless you are suggesting that maybe someone is carrying a gun too fast? Since we did both compare to automobiles let's go back to #2, we all drive I assume, how many accidents has insurance prevented? Insurance is an "after the fact" way to compensate drivers, victims, but most importantly the company that holds your note. It's about money, not lives.

1-3 in this post that many liked but I am sorry, I just don't see how any of this would prevent loss of life. I do see however where all of it is a way to deter gun ownership. I am just a little concerned that this thread is even up though, why not pick the top 1 or 2 causes of deaths for children under 12 instead of #4 or 5? More young kids die (5 down) by drowning, a lot more.

In 2015, 240 gun homicides ages 14 and under and 139 suicides. Think about that, there was something like 48 million kids 11 and under in the USA, you add 12-14 in that group and you are well over 52 million. That is .0000073% of the population of kids in that age group, not a big problem but lets regulate and vilify the gun community and guns themselves. The fact that it was 5 years of data to make the number look large is disingenuous and a little offensive but hey, combat disinformation with real information.

Link to the sample year data here by the government
https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html

Link to child population here
https://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop1.asp

So many logical fallacies.

 

[TooCurious]

Yes, insurance works. If you speed or do other driving errors, your rates go up. If you leave keys in your car and it gets stolen, insurance may not pay. If you drive drunk, your insurance skyrockets.

Children are injured by guns. Where are those statistics? And then there is the trauma of children affected by gun violence. One does need to be the victim of the shooting in order to suffer the PTSD

Those stats are on the link I provided as well.

It is rare to have 2 separate incidents of a gun accidentally discharging and injuring someone. So by the time your insurance rate goes up, someone has already had an accident and the numbers will show it doesn't happen twice unless in rare circumstances. Speeding is a habitual offense that happens daily by the same people. The average drunk driver will drive drunk around 50 times before they are caught. Gun accidents and homicides are rarely perpetrated more than once. If a gun homicide happens more than once, then that is either a legislative problem or a judicial problem. Insurance would save no lives as far as gun deaths are concerned.

 

[Woodland]

1) There is no disputing that having a registry of all gun owners would make it easier to confiscate guns... Every owner of every firearm has their address listed and this wouldn't make it easier for confiscation how? The real point you are getting at is that people are afraid the government will one day try to take the guns of the population. There are people in Congress now that absolutely would pass legislation to do this. What needs to happen is have a database that cross references convicted criminals' addresses with those of people purchasing guns. Convict at in home? No sale.

2) How does having insurance keep anyone from being shot? The people responsible enough to buy and keep insurance aren't usually the ones that leave a gun lying around. The amount of guns in circulation vs the amount of deaths or instances of gun violence is so low the premiums wouldn't be higher than $10/year. This would also just add another tax to an over taxed populace, not to mention it is also a way to discourage gun ownership which infringes on Constitutional rights.

3)More kids die yearly in automobile accidents, is anyone suggesting stopping private treaty car sales? Or perhaps make every automobile have a governor or computer chip to regulate speeds, a breathalyzer to start car, Etc? No, we as a people have to be responsible with our actions and that includes making private treaty sales. However a lot of crimes are committed with stolen guns and reports that track that, any report on the amount of deaths that are attributed to private gun sales? How many lives would this save?

4) 10 or 11 years ago, maybe 12 there was a law passed doing exactly what you suggest.

Your closing, you can't compare gun ownership regulations to car speed limits and regulations. It's apples and oranges. Speed limits are for safety involving road conditions, pedestrian traffic, etc, unless you are suggesting that maybe someone is carrying a gun too fast? Since we did both compare to automobiles let's go back to #2, we all drive I assume, how many accidents has insurance prevented? Insurance is an "after the fact" way to compensate drivers, victims, but most importantly the company that holds your note. It's about money, not lives.

1-3 in this post that many liked but I am sorry, I just don't see how any of this would prevent loss of life. I do see however where all of it is a way to deter gun ownership. I am just a little concerned that this thread is even up though, why not pick the top 1 or 2 causes of deaths for children under 12 instead of #4 or 5? More young kids die (5 down) by drowning, a lot more.

In 2015, 240 gun homicides ages 14 and under and 139 suicides. Think about that, there was something like 48 million kids 11 and under in the USA, you add 12-14 in that group and you are well over 52 million. That is .0000073% of the population of kids in that age group, not a big problem but lets regulate and vilify the gun community and guns themselves. The fact that it was 5 years of data to make the number look large is disingenuous and a little offensive but hey, combat disinformation with real information.

Link to the sample year data here by the government
https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html

Link to child population here
https://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop1.asp

Not seeing what the overall child population in the US has to do with children dying by the thousands from gunshot wounds. Not seeing what vehicle accidents have to do with children dying from gunshot wounds.

Fwiw, this reply reads to me as though a thousand + dead children per year from gunshot wounds isn't anything to get excited about or that it's merely a consequence people should expect with their second amendment rights.

Some don't see it that way.

Hopefully the thread will stay on topic.

 

[human]

Not seeing what the overall child population in the US has to do with children dying by the thousands from gunshot wounds. Not seeing what vehicle accidents have to do with children dying from gunshot wounds.

Fwiw, this reply reads to me as though a thousand + dead children per year from gunshot wounds isn't anything to get excited about or that it's merely a consequence people should expect with their second amendment rights.

Some don't see it that way.

Hopefully the thread will stay on topic.

How many children were severly traumatized from school shootings? Hiw many children are paraplegics or have other life long problems from shootings?

 

[Tawny]

Not seeing what the overall child population in the US has to do with children dying by the thousands from gunshot wounds. Not seeing what vehicle accidents have to do with children dying from gunshot wounds.

Fwiw, this reply reads to me as though a thousand + dead children per year from gunshot wounds isn't anything to get excited about or that it's merely a consequence people should expect with their second amendment rights.

Some don't see it that way.

Hopefully the thread will stay on topic.

"Look at all the children who HAVEN'T died by gunshot!" It's such a tired argument and a logical fallacy. Or maybe it's a false equivalency. Either way, it's a lame tactic.

 

[human]

Some clarification re guns and domestic violence laws

https://www.elitedaily.com/p/can-a-...ender-own-a-gun-the-reality-is-tricky-3233751

 

[Tawny]

Some clarification re guns and domestic violence laws

https://www.elitedaily.com/p/can-a-...ender-own-a-gun-the-reality-is-tricky-3233751

Another part of the problem is that the HOUSEHOLD can have firearms. So, the partner or family members of the offender can still legally own firearms. It's in their rights. Now consider that domestic violence offenders are manipulative and abusive, and you have a situation where they make their victims buy and "own" the firearms. And in most states, a conviction does not mean the offender has to turn in any firearms they own, they just can't buy more.

It's a very broken system built to have multiple points of failure. We can thank the NRA for all of this, IMO.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

OK.

But a household can have stolen guns (impacts insurance), a domestic violence issue (impacts insurance and gun ownership, especially if legal gun owner lives with someone convicted of domestic violence), a firearm-related suicide annnnnnnnnnnd unintentional injury or death from a firearm.

You lose your gun license and become uninsurable. Then you break the law and go to jail or prison.


Just like someone can have a DUI, speeding ticket, driving without license, unpaid parking tickets resulting in car being impounded, and an at-fault accident.

Your logic is curious.

Those stats are on the link I provided as well.

It is rare to have 2 separate incidents of a gun accidentally discharging and injuring someone. So by the time your insurance rate goes up, someone has already had an accident and the numbers will show it doesn't happen twice unless in rare circumstances. Speeding is a habitual offense that happens daily by the same people. The average drunk driver will drive drunk around 50 times before they are caught. Gun accidents and homicides are rarely perpetrated more than once. If a gun homicide happens more than once, then that is either a legislative problem or a judicial problem. Insurance would save no lives as far as gun deaths are concerned.