Since Sandy Hook, 1,000 kids under age 12 have died from guns

[K_Z]

The CDC recently (summer of 2017) completed and published a study in Pediatrics about firearm deaths and injuries among U.S. children. It's very, very clear from this study, and others, that it is not the firearms that are the dominant TREND of the problem, but the particular socio/ ethno/ cultural problems of the populations.

What the researchers did NOT quantify, are the statistics of children killed by legally owned firearms, versus illegally possessed firearms. I think those statistics would be very illuminating, particularly as it related to their defined category (in the study) of boys ages 13-17. Far more children and teens are killed by illegally possessed guns than children killed (or who commit suicide) from a legally owned gun.

Black kids die at 10 times the rate of white and hispanic kids, because of the immense crime and social problems within the poor urban communities. And no one seems to be very upset about that. No one is marching in the streets, demonstrating, protesting, and crying for these kids. The guns are not killing kids in these communities-- they're being killed by adults and older teens with huge criminal, social, and mental health problems, who are criminally irresponsible with the guns they illegally possess. And we apparently can't make a dent in fixing any of that, right?

Guns don't kill children all by themselves, any more than hammers or cars kill children. Guns don't get up and go for a walk and see who they can kill. But it's sure not politically correct to say that out loud. Because then it's painfully obvious what the problem is-- and equally obvious that we can't anticipate and fix social problems and mental health problems.

Childhood Firearm Injuries in the United States

African American children have the highest rates of firearm mortality overall (4.1 per 100 000), and this disparity is largely a function of differences between racial and ethnic groups in firearm homicide. From 2012 to 2014, the annual firearm homicide rate for African American children (3.5 per 100 000) was nearly twice as high as the rate for American Indian children (2.2 per 100 000), 4 times higher than the rate for Hispanic children (0.8 per 100 000), and ∼10 times higher than the rate for white children and Asian American children (each 0.4 per 100 000).

In contrast with patterns of firearm homicide, white and American Indian children have the highest annual average rates of firearm suicide (each 2.2 per 100 000). From 2012 to 2014, the annual rate of firearm suicide among white and American Indian children was nearly 4 times higher than the rate for African American (0.6 per 100 000) and Hispanic (0.5 per 100 000) children and over 5 times the rate for Asian American children (0.4 per 100 000). From 2012 to 2014, rates of unintentional firearm deaths were between 0.1 and 0.2 per 100 000 across racial and ethnic groups. The rate for African American children was twice as high (0.2 per 100 000) as the rate for white children (0.1 per 100 000) and 4 times the rate for Hispanic children (0.05 per 100 000).

BBM.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/06/15/peds.2016-3486

 

[Jennifer17]

The CDC recently (summer of 2017) completed and published a study in Pediatrics about firearm deaths and injuries among U.S. children. It's very, very clear from this study, and others, that it is not the firearms that are the dominant TREND of the problem, but the particular socio/ ethno/ cultural problems of the populations.

What the researchers did NOT quantify, are the statistics of children killed by legally owned firearms, versus illegally possessed firearms. I think those statistics would be very illuminating, particularly as it related to their defined category (in the study) of boys ages 13-17. Far more children and teens are killed by illegally possessed guns than children killed (or who commit suicide) from a legally owned gun.

Black kids die at 10 times the rate of white and hispanic kids, because of the immense crime and social problems within the poor urban communities. And no one seems to be very upset about that. No one is marching in the streets, demonstrating, protesting, and crying for these kids. The guns are not killing kids in these communities-- they're being killed by adults and older teens with huge criminal, social, and mental health problems, who are criminally irresponsible with the guns they illegally possess. And we apparently can't make a dent in fixing any of that, right?

Guns don't kill children all by themselves, any more than hammers or cars kill children. Guns don't get up and go for a walk and see who they can kill. But it's sure not politically correct to say that out loud. Because then it's painfully obvious what the problem is-- and equally obvious that we can't anticipate and fix social problems and mental health problems.

Childhood Firearm Injuries in the United States



BBM.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/06/15/peds.2016-3486

Yes, that may well be so, but plenty of white children are killed by white people or white people being careless about guns. Even if you took the black aspect out it, more white children die from gun deaths than in any other civilised country. This statistic does not include the 20 children who died at Sandy Hook, in one incident.

 

[human]

Of course poc care about the problem. There are groups all over dealing with the issues. From mothers to people like Colin Kaepernick. . (Sp)

Googling brings up tons of people doing things.

 

[Meryl12]

:goodpost:

Great post K-Z, and very interesting as well. Thanks.

 

[Jennifer17]

KZ, it seems like you are an advocate of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for your actions. If so, count me in. I am for people taking responsibility for their decisions. That is certainly more important than some government mandate to seize inanimate objects. You can take the guns away, and still have ""bad" people with "bad" habits, "bad" behavior...." For me, that is more of the problem than some object. We need RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE whether guns exist or not, and we are all better off.

But so many are not responsible, because there are no laws to make them responsible. And some of them are 'responsible' until they are not. Stephen Paddock, was a 'responsible' gun owner, until he wasn't. Other countries have bad people and mad people, but not the numbers (per capita) of gun deaths that the US has. Why is that?

 

[Rott Mom]

Guns don't kill people - people kill people.

 

[Jennifer17]

Guns don't kill people - people kill people.

20

Yep, but if people don't have guns, they do not kill people. Like the rest of the civilised world who do not have toddlers killing other toddlers or gun owners going into schools and killing 20 6year old's. No, guns do not kill people, but people with guns kill people.

 

[human]

I wonder how many children there are with permanent injuries from guns?

The gun injuries can be totally debilitating. I don’t think we hear about that part.

 

[Kaley Smith]

This is a uniquely American problem which those of us outside the USA simply can not solve for them because such a large percentage of Americans still cling stubbornly to their old myths about guns and will not listen to reason or even look at the mounds of evidence/ statistics which make them look like a Third World Country in this area of gun violence. Meanwhile, their guns are coming across the border illegally in alarming numbers. Maybe we in Canada need to build a wall to protect ourselves? Here all people and parties agree on strict gun laws. In fact, most of us want even stricter gun laws. I e-mailed the Prime Minister's office about it in November and his response was, " We're working on it."

 

[KaaBoom]

Even Richard Nixon was a voice of reason, in this debate. Think of how many kids would be alive today, if he had gotten his way. Little did Nixon know that 50 years later, not only would kids be getting killed by handguns, but they would be getting killed with semi automatic / fully automatic assault rifles as well.

“I don’t know why any individual should have a right to have a revolver in his house. The kids usually kill themselves with it and so forth. Can’t we go after handguns, period? I know the rifle association will be against it, the gun makers will be against it, but people should not have handguns.” - Richard Nixon, May 16, 1972.

 

[Jennifer17]

This is a uniquely American problem which those of us outside the USA simply can not solve for them because such a large percentage of Americans still cling stubbornly to their old myths about guns and will not listen to reason or even look at the mounds of evidence/ statistics which make them look like a Third World Country in this area of gun violence. Meanwhile, their guns are coming across the border illegally in alarming numbers. Maybe we in Canada need to build a wall to protect ourselves? Here all people and parties agree on strict gun laws. In fact, most of us want even stricter gun laws. I e-mailed the Prime Minister's office about it in November and his response was, " We're working on it."

Yes, there is a need for a wall to keep them in.

 

[TMAN2014]

But so many are not responsible, because there are no laws to make them responsible. And some of them are 'responsible' until they are not. Stephen Paddock, was a 'responsible' gun owner, until he wasn't. Other countries have bad people and mad people, but not the numbers (per capita) of gun deaths that the US has. Why is that?

But there are strict laws in certain places like Chicago, LA, and New York, but criminals don't follow laws, and find guns any way. I don't know about other countries, and the culture of how criminals get guns. I don't own a gun personally, but I believe in the right of our citizens to protect themselves. We need to teach responsibility with citizens who follow the law. That won't work for citizens who do not follow the law. So, you want to penalize responsible citizens for the behavior (irresponsibility of monitoring guns, crime) of another part of the population?

I had a friend killed in a gun shooting over shoveling snow back aroun the year 2000 by an odd neighbor. I will look for a link if I can find it, if you want to read the story. Send me a private IM, so I don't clog up this topic with it. While it was a terrible event, I don't believe that event means every responsible citizen should now lose their right to protect themselves.

 

[Jennifer17]

But there are strict laws in certain places like Chicago, LA, and New York, but criminals don't follow laws, and find guns any way. I don't know about other countries, and the culture of how criminals get guns. I don't own a gun personally, but I believe in the right of our citizens to protect themselves. We need to teach responsibility with citizens who follow the law. That won't work for citizens who do not follow the law. So, you want to penalize responsible citizens for the behavior (irresponsibility of monitoring guns, crime) of another part of the population?

I had a friend killed in a gun shooting over shoveling snow back aroun the year 2000 by an odd neighbor. I will look for a link if I can find it, if you want to read the story. Send me a private IM, so I don't clog up this topic with it. While it was a terrible event, I don't believe that event means every responsible citizen should now lose their right to protect themselves.

BBM, But what are you protecting yourselves from? Criminals or odd neighbours? If your friend's odd neighbour did not have a gun, he may have had a scuffle with him, and not ended up dead. The right to protect yourself didn't work out so well for him, did it?

 

[TMAN2014]

No one said it was an easy topic. Everyone should not be painted with a broad brush, as the situation downtown Chicago, NY City, LA, or Philly is quite different than remote areas in Kansas or Nebraska.

Do I want to keep some farmer in remote Kansas from possessing a fire arm to protect his family, 50 miles from civilization?

Or some bar owner in West Philly in the badlands, leaving his job at 2 AM in a dangerous neighborhood? Do I want to tell him he can't protect himself with a firearm? Is he to expect the criminals will all turn in their guns? Is he to just accept getting robbed is acceptable?

Each situation has its own advantages and disadvantages with firearms. I think we all agree too many children get killed.

And no, it did not end up well for my friend. It turns out they were both packin'. But if you knew the neighborhood, maybe my friend had reason to want to protect himself against armed robbery. It just so happened the man who killed him was an "off individual", but I don't know how you weed them out. There are no simple solutions. I don't think it is a good situation if a perpetrator knows his potential victim has no adequate protection. We know black markets will provide criminals with guns, no matter what laws are passed.

 

[flourish]

I wonder how many children there are with permanent injuries from guns?

The gun injuries can be totally debilitating. I don’t think we hear about that part.

Points to Mr flourish, who was shot at age 6 by another 6 year old. He's still got shoulder pain, two visible scars, and some range of motion limitations.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120AZ using Tapatalk

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

But so many are not responsible, because there are no laws to make them responsible. And some of them are 'responsible' until they are not. Stephen Paddock, was a 'responsible' gun owner, until he wasn't. Other countries have bad people and mad people, but not the numbers (per capita) of gun deaths that the US has. Why is that?

:goodpost:

Agreed! Well said, J17. Thank you. Indeed, data shows time and again that even very responsible people who have higher access to firearms also experience more incidences of gun-related violence.

Jumping off your post:

• Up to half of civilian-owned guns on the planet are owned by Americans.

• Americas toddlers are still shooting people on a weekly basis. (Actually, slightly more often than that.)

• More than 100,000 Americans are injured or killed by gunfire each year.

• Almost two-thirds of gun deaths in America are suicides, a substantial number by non-POC men.

• The majority of mass shootings in the U.S. have been committed by white men.

• A substantial number domestic-related mass shootings — including the murder of children — have been committed by non-POC men.

• Gun violence is now the third-leading cause of children in America.

• There are 88 guns per every 100 residents in America.

• "Gun ownership is more common among men than women, and white men are particularly likely to be gun owners."

• Americans are 25 times more likely to be murdered by gunfire than any other developed country.

• Data shows that urban residents are the least likely to have firearms. (Forty-six percent are rural, 28 percent are suburban and 19 percent are urban.)

​

Welp, we've just accounted for the overwhelming majority of gun violence in the United States, imo!


____________

Sources:

A lot of it has also been shared/sourced upthread already, but here are some additional links to info/data/research, too. (As someone else mentioned upthread, a lot more data is easily available and Google-ready.)

Kids and Guns: Shootings Now Third-Leading Cause of Death for U.S. Children
http://www.newsweek.com/guns-kids-third-leading-cause-death-627209

At Least 279 Unintentional Shootings by Children in 2017
https://everytownresearch.org/notanaccident/

American toddlers are still shooting people on a weekly basis this year
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...eekly-basis-this-year/?utm_term=.005423e1e6bc

The demographics of gun ownership in the United States
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/

America's passion for guns: ownership and violence by the numbers
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/02/us-gun-control-ownership-violence-statistics

1,516 mass shootings in 1,735 days
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/oct/02/america-mass-shootings-gun-violence

The facts on mass shootings in the United States
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/nov/08/facts-mass-shootings-united-states/

How Americans really feel about gun control
http://www.businessinsider.com/amer...iefs-las-vegas-shooting-polls-surveys-2017-10

Parent/Safety Survey: Many kids spend time in homes with guns, but safety lags
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-parents-guns-firearm-safety-survey/

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

rs/bbm

Oh my, I can't begin to imagine how sad and tragic it probably was to lose a friend in that way, TMAN. I'm so sorry for your loss.

I had a friend killed in a gun shooting over shoveling snow back aroun the year 2000 by an odd neighbor.

 

[PrairieWind]

IMHO, I think the problem with trying to use other countries gun policies/laws has to do with geographic size and regional variations of social norms in the U.S.

Let's take the U.K. and Australia as a couple of examples. Both countries have a relatively small geographic footprint. It's easier for LE in those countries to enforce their laws, keep track of people and it's magnitudes easier for them to track gun ownership because the proportion of gun owners is quite small in comparison to their overall population.

I think another difference between those countries and the U.S. is that people who own guns in those countries tend to own them because they live in relatively rural areas and have their guns for a reason. Now, I'm not saying American gun owners don't have a reason for their guns, many of them do, such as hunters and people who live in rural communities like their European counterparts but I think the difference lies in how they see their guns. The Europeans view their guns as a tool, a means to some end and they don't stockpile weapons, they have one or two rifles, maybe a handgun and that's it, compare that to American gun owners, a few overall have only what they need but most have small arsenals. Owning a gun isn't about having what you need, it's having as many as you want and for a sadly large number, it's abut stockpiling weapons "just to piss off libruls." Another problem is the craven corruption at the highest levels of the court system. While the UK and Australian courts have used common sense and weighed the rights of the gun owner against the security of the entire population American courts have been co-opted by groups like the NRA. A person nominated to a federal court gets a "grade" from the NRA and if the NRA says a nominee is bad for gun rights then you can count on the GOP to vote against that person.

I think a very large issue with the gun problem is that certain segments of the American population have juxtaposed their right to a gun with their over-all rights as an American citizen. They have this mindset that if you control gun ownership then that will lead to a dictatorship. Their favorite example of this is Hitler taking guns away from the Jews before Kristallnacht and the start of the pogrom to exterminate them. In their minds, gun control is one step away from Hitler coming into power. They view their gun rights like they do the right to free speech and the rest of the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Overall, IMHO, it's a far reaching problem, something that is akin to generational racism. These crazy ideas about gun ownership are cultural and social, like generational racism, and until we can get society, or at least a large part of it, to change how they view guns and gun ownership we'll never able to have a mature, intelligence social discussion about common sense gun control policy.

I hope this made sense, it's 4:30am here and I'm a little loopy from insomnia LOL

Respectfully, I must say there is little here I can agree with. Very few Americans stockpile weapons. Now, I guess that may depend up on how you define stockpile. I have over ten firearms. Some I purchases, some that were my fathers that became mine when he passed away. I do some hunting, though not as much as I used to, and I enjoy target shooting. Some of the older rifles I keep solely as reminders of my grandfather and father. I have handguns and concealed carry permit. As an attorney, I have on occasion been threatened by opposing parties. But I do not consider myself to have a stockpile of weapons.

As an attorney, I see no "craven corruption" of the high courts or that they have been co-opted by the NRA. If there has been any bias in the courts over the years it has been against gun ownership. But the courts must apply the law. And the fact remains that the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution exists and it is the law of the land.

I find it a bit offensive to compare people's right to bear arms as akin to institutional racism. Why are my beliefs that I should be able to keep the firearms I have, a "crazy idea?" I, nor my friends and neighbors, need to change how we view gun ownership. The number of firearms in this country is increasing while gun violence is decreasing (with I believe an exception for portions of this year). Guns are not the problem. A culture of violence and anger IS part of the problem. Mental health is part of the problem. Enforcing current laws is part of the problem. Until people stop this irrational fear of firearms and gun owners, we will never have an intelligent discussion about reducing violence.

The shooting of children like happened at Sandy Hook or massacres like Las Vegas are not acceptable. To anyone. No one is saying otherwise.

 

[TMAN2014]

rs/bbm

Oh my, I can't begin to imagine how sad and tragic it probably was to lose a friend in that way, TMAN. I'm so sorry for your loss.

Long time ago. I grew up in a big city, and that is not the only tragic event, some with guns and some without (had a star basketball player get macheted at a playground). There are many valid points on both sides of this discussion.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I honestly don't think some of you realise how different your mindset is compared to other Westernised countries. It's not your fault, it's how you've been socialised. I have American friends here in England who admit they didn't wake up to it until they spent time living abroad. A couple of members summed it up in a post on the pit bull thread:

In the UK, Canada and Australia, safety trumps freedom. In the USA it does not. The price of their freedom, whether it be guns or the right to own pitbulls, sadly is many deaths.

I'd say it's more about competing freedoms. There's the freedom to do something (to own a potentially lethal dog) and the freedom from something (to not be at risk from a potentially lethal dog). The US comes down on one side of that equation and other countries come down on the other side of it.