Since Sandy Hook, 1,000 kids under age 12 have died from guns

  • #121
80% of guns used in mass shootings are legally owned by the killers. The other 20% are legally owned guns that are stolen to commit the killings, or are legally owned guns that are legally bought by someone else and sold or given to the killers, as was the case with Columbine. Legally owned guns are the problem. This simply doesn't happen in any countries that restrict gun ownership. But I get it, you don't care about any of that. The right to own a gun is more important than the right not to be killed by a gun. I get it.

More Than 80 Percent of Guns Used in Mass Shootings Obtained Legally - NBC News

That article addresses only mass shootings, which are (despite media frenzy) very rare. They make up a tiny fraction of shootings. In shootings overall, the overwhelming majority of the guns used were not legally owner or possessed.
 
  • #122
That article addresses only mass shootings, which are (despite media frenzy) very rare. They make up a tiny fraction of shootings. In shootings overall, the overwhelming majority of the guns used were not legally owner or possessed.

Mass shootings are not rare at all.
 
  • #123
That article addresses only mass shootings, which are (despite media frenzy) very rare. They make up a tiny fraction of shootings. In shootings overall, the overwhelming majority of the guns used were not legally owner or possessed.

Great post! You took the words right from my mouth.

MASS SHOOTINGS ARE VERY RARE. A large majority of guns used to commit crimes are ILLEGAL GUNS. These crimes, along with murders are, the work of gangs/drug dealers and other criminals, and take place in big cities like Detroit Chicago, and so-on.
 
  • #124
Mass shootings are not rare at all.

Jennifer, you guys just had an incident there in Aulstria, where a man used his car as a big weapon to mow down 18 people.

But you guys never speak of banning them.
 
  • #125
Jennifer, you guys just had an incident there in Aulstria, where a man used his car as a big weapon to mow down 18 people.

But you guys never speak of banning them.

Cars have other uses besides killing. Guns don't.
 
  • #126
  • #127

I agree. It serves to only look at the crimes committed with guns as drug or gang related because it makes the issue an "us vs them" one. Whatever the catalyst for a mass shooting (drugs, gang, mental illness, etc), the rationalization for not making any change or adjustment is the 2nd amendment. The issue of gun violence prevalence divides because of the idea of my rights. I want my rights as well but many 2nd amendment supporters would deny me the rights that I have to privacy and self-determination. It is an odd dilemma on so many levels.

To be clear, mass shooting are not rare. Many of the guns in mass shootings are legally obtained. Many of the guns used in suicides are not illegal. Many of the guns that children get a hold of are legal. However, it serves to keep the narrative going to blame most gun violence on illegal action and illegal possession. It is very interesting to me.
 
  • #128
Jennifer, you guys just had an incident there in Aulstria, where a man used his car as a big weapon to mow down 18 people.

But you guys never speak of banning them.


This is a red herring argument. Hate speech also fuels violence but we don't ban it. Mental illness is attributed to violence but we don't stem it.

But, I can say this...LEO are just now catching up with how cars can be weaponized. Where I live, large gatherings of people now have sanitation trucks and barricades to ensure against violence from cars. And, funnily enough, many are not on the streets protesting or creating PACs to stem the tide of LEO increasing safety measures.

What has been done to stem the violence issue with guns? Bump stocks (for rapid shooting of non-rapid firing guns)? Ownership by those who are not qualified (TX shooter who should not have been able to purchase)? Guns owned by mentally ill people (CO shooter, CT shooter)? If you only stick to the argument that it is drug and gangs as the issue, guns sold at gun shows and on the internet privately might be fewer if there was legislation in place. Limitations on guns can give those who love their guns access with modifications that keep those innocents safe.
 
  • #129
That article addresses only mass shootings, which are (despite media frenzy) very rare. They make up a tiny fraction of shootings. In shootings overall, the overwhelming majority of the guns used were not legally owner or possessed.

Again this doesn't happen in any country that controls gun ownership. The American system is a disaster, and we will continue in a downward spiral of gun violence, until the laws are changed.
 
  • #130
What is a "mass shooting"? The definition keeps changing, and there is no consistency. Whomever is using the term gets to define what it is, or WHICH definition they cherry pick, depending on their political views of gun ownership.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...icates-media-coverage/?utm_term=.874a5bff33ef

The most pressing issue related to gun crimes, IMO, is categorizing them accurately and properly. There is a vast, vast difference between a child who encounters a loaded and unsecured firearm, accidental hunting shootings, terrorist mass shootings, shootings by the criminally insane/ mentally ill, suicides, and garden variety gang and criminal shootings. Each category has a DIFFERENT cause, and a different strategy for preventing the shootings. Accidents are vastly different than purposeful shootings.

Again, it is the HUMAN part of the equation that is most pressing-- the problems and motivations of the PEOPLE who cause the shootings. A gun is just a tool. But it's much easier to simply blame the tool and people who have them. Someone like Adam Lanza should have been found legally incompetent and profoundly disabled years before his mass shooting. Nancy Lanza should never have been able to shield him for so many years. She rejected all attempts to have him properly treated. IMO, he should have been institutionalized on a long term basis. He was clearly so mentally and socially compromised he should never have been in society unsupervised. That's my opinion. Sandy Hook is a result of Nancy Lanza's extreme pathological denial about Adam's mental and social disabilities, and society's apathy. AL could just as easily have run over a bunch of kids on a playground using Nancy's car, or slashed kids with kitchen knives. But he had access to Nancy's guns, and incessant priming/ OC behaviors playing violent gun and killing video games sequestered for months on end, so that's what he used when he finally homicidally acted out. If it wasn't guns, it would have been another tool he used.

It's outrageous that a poster above wants to imprison *victims* of theft, robbery, and home invasions. Using that same logic, shall we also imprison or execute the families of all criminals and murderers? Shall we also deport, imprison, or execute all of the extended families of immigrant terrorists? No. Because America is not a place like North Korea or Iran, or dozens of other barbaric dictatorships.

Many people have no concept of why our 2nd amendment exists. It exists not only to allow citizens to protect themselves and their families from violent crimes, but to allow citizens to protect themselves against a government that becomes fascist, brutal, or dictatorial. That's why settlers came here in the first place--seeking freedom from *too much government* intrusion into their lives. Those who wanted to remain under the crown of England migrated north-- they valued security and goods over freedom, and were willing to have less freedom for more security. Those who became Americans valued freedom from excessive government over security, and preferred personal responsibility for providing for their needs, over dependence on the government.

These same values define first world societies around the world today. Europe is the way it is, because of it's history and geography, *more* than its values. America is the way it is because of its history of settlers, and because of their values. IMO, of course. That's why America has personal gun rights other countries do not have, and things like our 3rd Amendment, not compelling private citizens to house soldiers. (Vastly simplified explanation, of course.) It's no accident the content of the 3rd Amendment is where it is-- all the early amendments were to guarantee rights of the people separate from things "bestowed" or granted by the current rulers to citizens.
 
  • #131
That article addresses only mass shootings, which are (despite media frenzy) very rare. They make up a tiny fraction of shootings. In shootings overall, the overwhelming majority of the guns used were not legally owner or possessed.

Do you have any stats to back up your assertions here? 307 mass shootings in 2017 in the US at about 5 Nov 2017 makes them rare? Article for 307 at 5 Nov 2017 is posted a couple of pages back.

For now this is an opinion imo.
 
  • #132
Great post! You took the words right from my mouth.

MASS SHOOTINGS ARE VERY RARE. A large majority of guns used to commit crimes are ILLEGAL GUNS. These crimes, along with murders are, the work of gangs/drug dealers and other criminals, and take place in big cities like Detroit Chicago, and so-on.


BBM

Bingo.

Wish I could get some answers as to why the national media gives crimes of that nature a free pass. Perhaps it might make local news in those cities but never nationally.

I wonder why.
 
  • #133
This is a red herring argument. Hate speech also fuels violence but we don't ban it. Mental illness is attributed to violence but we don't stem it.

But, I can say this...LEO are just now catching up with how cars can be weaponized. Where I live, large gatherings of people now have sanitation trucks and barricades to ensure against violence from cars. And, funnily enough, many are not on the streets protesting or creating PACs to stem the tide of LEO increasing safety measures.

What has been done to stem the violence issue with guns? Bump stocks (for rapid shooting of non-rapid firing guns)? Ownership by those who are not qualified (TX shooter who should not have been able to purchase)? Guns owned by mentally ill people (CO shooter, CT shooter)? If you only stick to the argument that it is drug and gangs as the issue, guns sold at gun shows and on the internet privately might be fewer if there was legislation in place. Limitations on guns can give those who love their guns access with modifications that keep those innocents safe.


BBM


Not all people of legally owned guns are mentally ill though.
 
  • #134
Do you have any stats to back up your assertions here? 307 mass shootings in 2017 in the US at about 5 Nov 2017 makes them rare? Article for 307 at 5 Nov 2017 is posted a couple of pages back.

For now this is an opinion imo.


BBM

Would love to see a detailed list of those 307 mass shootings plus circumstances involved if possible thanks
 
  • #135
BBM

Would love to see a detailed list of those 307 mass shootings plus circumstances involved if possible thanks

Here's the article from the original post.

https://www.abc15.com/news/national...ver-270-mass-shootings-have-occurred-in-2017_

The article does not break the 307 mass shootings down - not sure if it's laziness on the part of the writer or an acceptance of the fact - if you want a breakdown so that you could learn more, suggest you google the subject and bring your findings here. Just a thought.
 
  • #136
This is a red herring argument. Hate speech also fuels violence but we don't ban it. Mental illness is attributed to violence but we don't stem it.

But, I can say this...LEO are just now catching up with how cars can be weaponized. Where I live, large gatherings of people now have sanitation trucks and barricades to ensure against violence from cars. And, funnily enough, many are not on the streets protesting or creating PACs to stem the tide of LEO increasing safety measures.

What has been done to stem the violence issue with guns? Bump stocks (for rapid shooting of non-rapid firing guns)? Ownership by those who are not qualified (TX shooter who should not have been able to purchase)? Guns owned by mentally ill people (CO shooter, CT shooter)? If you only stick to the argument that it is drug and gangs as the issue, guns sold at gun shows and on the internet privately might be fewer if there was legislation in place. Limitations on guns can give those who love their guns access with modifications that keep those innocents safe.

Thank-you kaen - part of this post is a thought I have been mulling over for a few days.

Again we have people arguing 'gun violence' as the only issue. Denial imo. Children picking up guns from a table or under a bed in their home or the back seat of a vehicle does not constitute violence - not even intended violence. The child then discharges that gun and well, boom! Someone is dead or injured.

The denial here imo is the carelessness and blase attitude in the US - because 'I can have a gun, it's my right.'

Then we have the 'it's only the criminal element' that causes all the deaths and injuries. No back-up, just the opinion. = Denial.

Now we have some sort of history of why guns need to exist today as they do in the US (because nothing has changed in hundreds of years?) and even worse (imo) a debate of what constitutes a mass shooting. If it's not clear and agreed upon what a mass shooting is, then don't tell me what I need to think.

Anyway, the bottom line is kids will still suffer the consequences from all of the 'justifications' put forward. No empathy present in any of the arguments or justifications that I can see. Plenty of 'what I want and believe' is present though.

= insanity imo.
 
  • #137
Really?


https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data


Bit of an eye opener, considering a lot of those "mass shootings" had injuries, no deaths.


Not to mention some of the news articles the data is drawn from, is sloppy in journalism.


But on this positive side, and I quick glanced through a bunch of the news stories, a number of the crimes do reflect accurate statistics (that which I know thus far when it comes to crimes committed by gun owners anyways).


Quick breakdown of some of the major cities:


29 of the mass shootings in Chicago (no surprise there at all)


6 in Detroit


3 in Hartford


6 in Baltimore


10 in New Orleans


127 alone in state of Illinois


42 total in Michigan
...............................


127 mass shootings in IL mostly in greater Chicago area - not a good sign at all.


Example:


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-shootings-violence-20170906-story.html


Also worth mentioning, a lot of those cases have UID shooters (sad huh)


How we confiscate guns from criminals?
 
  • #138
Really?


https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data


Bit of an eye opener, considering a lot of those "mass shootings" had injuries, no deaths.


Not to mention some of the news articles the data is drawn from, is sloppy in journalism.


But on this positive side, and I quick glanced through a bunch of the news stories, a number of the crimes do reflect accurate statistics (that which I know thus far when it comes to crimes committed by gun owners anyways).


Quick breakdown of some of the major cities:


29 of the mass shootings in Chicago (no surprise there at all)


6 in Detroit


3 in Hartford


6 in Baltimore


10 in New Orleans


127 alone in state of Illinois


42 total in Michigan
...............................


127 mass shootings in IL mostly in greater Chicago area - not a good sign at all.


Example:


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-shootings-violence-20170906-story.html


Also worth mentioning, a lot of those cases have UID shooters (sad huh)


How we confiscate guns from criminals?

BBM - thank goodness for small mercies. Really small imo.
 
  • #139
BBM - thank goodness for small mercies. Really small imo.

Yeah huh.

BTW thanks for suggesting I look up some info on the number of mass shootings from your post #135 - I think that link Massshootingtracker.org is handy and contains a lot of useful info.

Will keep that link bookmarked.
 
  • #140
Yeah huh.

BTW thanks for suggesting I look up some info on the number of mass shootings from your post #135 - I think that link Massshootingtracker.org is handy and contains a lot of useful info.

Will keep that link bookmarked.

Broadening one's view to other info sights is good as well - personal choice.
 

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
85
Guests online
2,434
Total visitors
2,519

Forum statistics

Threads
632,163
Messages
18,622,941
Members
243,041
Latest member
sawyerteam
Back
Top