Size 12-14 Bloomies "modelled"

[andreww]

Miz Adventure,
The size-12's are a replacement for her size-6 underwear. The size-12's are simply part of the staging.

One of the R's patently redressed JonBenet in the size-12's.

Same with those long johns, get this one: on Dr Phil when discussing the upcoming vacation JR said the kids were just going to go in the car to the airport in their pajamas, can you see Patsy wanting everyone to see JonBenet wearing an old pair of BR's long johns in public, never mind those size-12's?

I reckon it was BR who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's?

,

Possibility I guess. Burke would have probably tried to use items that were close and at hand and if the size 12s were one of the unopened gifts he discovered, why not? But Burke wouldn't be smart enough to think about DNA evidence and such, and if he did redress her I would expect his DNA to be all over her and them. I tend to believe that JB was found by Patsy with the head wound only. Patsy gloved up and went to work.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Miz Adventure,
The size-12's are a replacement for her size-6 underwear. The size-12's are simply part of the staging.

One of the R's patently redressed JonBenet in the size-12's.

Same with those long johns, get this one: on Dr Phil when discussing the upcoming vacation JR said the kids were just going to go in the car to the airport in their pajamas, can you see Patsy wanting everyone to see JonBenet wearing an old pair of BR's long johns in public, never mind those size-12's?

I reckon it was BR who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's?

,

Why would anyone dress JBR in oversized panties as part of the 'staging'? Why not leave her lower regions naked, because that is probably what the R's would imagine a sexual pervert would have done?

I'm not even sure the R's knew that JBR had been interfered with.

In my theory PR discovered her daughter strangled. It was too late to save her. PR probably would not have even known that JBR had been knocked unconscious before this. (I believe BR to be responsible for all parts of the assaults - plus the re-dressing of JBR).

I know my ideas differ from a lot of peoples but I don't think the couple removed her clothes or interfered with her clothing in any way. They simply wrapped her in that white blanket. PR obviously knew that what JBR was wearing differed that the clothes she had been put to bed in but I think that detail may have been pushed to the back of her minds as the couple panicked and decided what to do.

Undoubtedly some staging went on - maybe the 'garrote' stick was inserted into the cord? The ransom note was written, the flashlight was wiped, etc.

 

[andreww]

Why would anyone dress JBR in oversized panties as part of the 'staging'? Why not leave her lower regions naked, because that is probably what the R's would imagine a sexual pervert would have done?

I'm not even sure the R's knew that JBR had been interfered with.

In my theory PR discovered her daughter strangled. It was too late to save her. PR probably would not have even known that JBR had been knocked unconscious before this. (I believe BR to be responsible for all parts of the assaults - plus the re-dressing of JBR).

I know my ideas differ from a lot of peoples but I don't think the couple removed her clothes or interfered with her clothing in any way. They simply wrapped her in that white blanket. PR obviously knew that what JBR was wearing differed that the clothes she had been put to bed in but I think that detail may have been pushed to the back of her minds as the couple panicked and decided what to do.

Undoubtedly some staging went on - maybe the 'garrote' stick was inserted into the cord? The ransom note was written, the flashlight was wiped, etc.

So how do red fibres from Patsy's sweater get on the inside of the duct tape? Why isn't Burke's DNA all over the paintbrush and the cord? Nope, the scene is too tidy for Burke to have done that.

 

[kanzz]

Heee! OTG you beat me to it. I submitted a new post complete with a link to nearly 60 screengrabs of Cynic's video (for those who can't watch the vid) and a rather lengthy discussion of said images - including the new bloomies shots. Sadly it appears to still be pending approval by the mods. Anyone know how long it normally takes?

Anyways, I found it interesting that two samples had been taken but there were still 2 small spots in the upper region plus half a larger stain still possibly available for further testing. Also, they weren't just tiny specks of blood but very visible bloodstains.

Tricia posted about this a few weeks back and I saved the link:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Advanced-DNA-testing&p=13007668#post13007668

 

[Annapurna]

So how do red fibres from Patsy's sweater get on the inside of the duct tape? Why isn't Burke's DNA all over the paintbrush and the cord? Nope, the scene is too tidy for Burke to have done that.

Would we be told if his DNA was in the paintbrush and cord? I'm not sure we would. We were told about the nightgown, but that is miles more neutral than the murder weapon.

From my understanding of the CO Children's law investigators are not allowed to even implicate him in the crime. Saying his DNA is on the murder weapon would more than imply his direct involvement.


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[SS 396 SS]

I live in a house much smaller than the Ramseys but I have places I could hide something and you would dang near have to tear the walls and floors out of the place to find it. Most people do especially rich ones. I'm sure John knew his house pretty well.
They could have asked some of the const crews if John had requested any open spaces in his walls or floors during remodelin. But it was a big house I'm sure he could find a place anyway.

 

[UKGuy]

Why would anyone dress JBR in oversized panties as part of the 'staging'? Why not leave her lower regions naked, because that is probably what the R's would imagine a sexual pervert would have done?

I'm not even sure the R's knew that JBR had been interfered with.

In my theory PR discovered her daughter strangled. It was too late to save her. PR probably would not have even known that JBR had been knocked unconscious before this. (I believe BR to be responsible for all parts of the assaults - plus the re-dressing of JBR).

I know my ideas differ from a lot of peoples but I don't think the couple removed her clothes or interfered with her clothing in any way. They simply wrapped her in that white blanket. PR obviously knew that what JBR was wearing differed that the clothes she had been put to bed in but I think that detail may have been pushed to the back of her minds as the couple panicked and decided what to do.

Undoubtedly some staging went on - maybe the 'garrote' stick was inserted into the cord? The ransom note was written, the flashlight was wiped, etc.

Miz Adventure,
Only the R's know exactly what took place. A minimal RDI theory has one of the R's whacking JonBenet on the head. Either the same R or another faking a sexual assault by using the paintbrush, then asphyxiating her.

The rationale for this depends on who you think this R is. Kolar reckons its BDI All, the way. I'm skeptical regarding this due to PR and JR's forensic evidence left on JonBenet?

Why would anyone dress JBR in over sized panties as part of the 'staging'? Why not leave her lower regions naked, because that is probably what the R's would imagine a sexual pervert would have done?

Sure, but then JonBenet had been wiped down. Coroner Meyer describes bloodstains on her underwear not matching any on her actual body.

So JonBenet was cleaned up after being redressed in the size-12's and presumably after being internally assaulted by either a finger, a piece of paintbrush or both!

So it really comes down to whether it is a sexually motivated assault or one based say on anger but staged to appear as a sexual assault?

.

 

[UKGuy]

So how do red fibres from Patsy's sweater get on the inside of the duct tape? Why isn't Burke's DNA all over the paintbrush and the cord? Nope, the scene is too tidy for Burke to have done that.

andreww,
it might be, we have not been told. We have only been told about the non-familial dna.

.

 

[SS 396 SS]

You've got my attention. Please continue.

Why would Patsy lie about havin bought Jonbenet some too? Was she tryin to lead us to believe there's no way she would have wanted the size 12s anymore because she had her own?

 

[helenahhandbaske]

The Bloomies underwear were sort of a novelty, it's not like buying a bulk package of a dozen pairs of white panties from Costco. They are from an upscale, landmark department store, so yes, I can see them being a gift for a niece.

That being said, I am a grown woman. I can fit into girls size 12/14 panties (I know this because about 6 years ago I was traveling with my family and my luggage was lost. I wore my then 13 year old sister's undies for a day until my luggage arrived. ) I was 30. And for the record, I'm not a tiny thing.

Anyway, someone that didn't understand sizing put those on her. My guess would be another child.


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[andreww]

Why would Patsy lie about havin bought Jonbenet some too? Was she tryin to lead us to believe there's no way she would have wanted the size 12s anymore because she had her own?

Don't think she lied on that one, just could not remember. Again, the fewer details that you give LE, the less they have to work with. Ramsey's knew this and were as vague as possible.

 

[UKGuy]

Why would Patsy lie about havin bought Jonbenet some too? Was she tryin to lead us to believe there's no way she would have wanted the size 12s anymore because she had her own?

SS 396 SS,
For the same reason Patsy could not remember purchasing a set of size-6 Bloomingdale's for JonBenet.

Nobody has gone on record and stated what make the size-6 underwear was taken from JonBenet's underwear drawer?

in her interview Patsy explicitly states she purchased two sets of underwear one for JonBenet and one for Jenny, her niece.

She just forgot what the sizes were.

.

 

[andreww]

andreww,
it might be, we have not been told. We have only been told about the non-familial dna.

.

Not sure why Steve Thomas would go the direction he did if Burke's DNA and fingerprints were all over that paintbrush. I'd guess it was wiped down and handled with gloves. I believe that the paintbrush was used to assault JB before it was broken and used as a garrotte. I think Patsy cleaned the scene and staged it while John slept.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Maybe size 12's were chosen to be put on her simply because they were the only pair brand new ...New , clean and having zero DNA evidence linking anyone to the crime.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

Tricia posted about this a few weeks back and I saved the link:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Advanced-DNA-testing&p=13007668#post13007668

Ah, thanks. That makes sense.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe size 12's were chosen to be put on her simply because they were the only pair brand new ...New , clean and having zero DNA evidence linking anyone to the crime.

MURDERER_SERVANT,
That might be why, also some of the size-6 underwear removed could be Bloomingdale's, and the redresser simply went for the same brand?

.

 

[Miz Adventure]

So how do red fibres from Patsy's sweater get on the inside of the duct tape? Why isn't Burke's DNA all over the paintbrush and the cord? Nope, the scene is too tidy for Burke to have done that.

Burke's DNA probably was on those items. As were his parents. Anyone who lived in the house, and whose DNA was found on household items, would have been eliminated automatically.

However - the duct tape is a different matter. The red and black fibres from Patsy's jacket (the one she had been wearing the day and night before) were found on the sticky side of the duct tape. That was something that wouldn't have been explained away easily. The duct tape had been part of the 'staging'.

Does anyone know if the knotted garotte was ever completely untied and the area within the knot tested for DNA?

 

[UKGuy]

Burke's DNA probably was on those items. As were his parents. Anyone who lived in the house, and whose DNA was found on household items, would have been eliminated automatically.

However - the duct tape is a different matter. The red and black fibres from Patsy's jacket (the one she had been wearing the day and night before) were found on the sticky side of the duct tape. That was something that wouldn't have been explained away easily. The duct tape had been part of the 'staging'.

Does anyone know if the knotted garotte was ever completely untied and the area within the knot tested for DNA?

Miz Adventure,
I think that's a negative. On the CBS Special did Henry Lee not suggest BPD send the ligature to his laboratory for the kind of analysis you outline?

.

 

[Ambitioned]

SS 396 SS,
For the same reason Patsy could not remember purchasing a set of size-6 Bloomingdale's for JonBenet.

Nobody has gone on record and stated what make the size-6 underwear was taken from JonBenet's underwear drawer?

in her interview Patsy explicitly states she purchased two sets of underwear one for JonBenet and one for Jenny, her niece.

She just forgot what the sizes were.

.

She couldn't even remember buying for JB. Unbelievable!! She remembered the trip, the dates of the trip, and buying for Jenny but not buying for JB? Something stinks and it's not me today.

10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,
11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your
12 niece, and one for JonBenet?
13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or
14 two.
15 Q. Do you remember what size they
16 were?
17 A. Not exactly.


12 Q. Okay. I am slightly confused,
13 and I would like this clarified. When I
14 first started to ask you about the purchase
15 of the panties in November, I got the
16 impression that you were somewhat unclear as
17 to whether you bought two sets or one.
18 In follow-up questions, I got the
19 impression that you felt confident that you
20 only bought one. Do you know?
21 A. I really can't remember.
22 Q. Do you recall that you did -- you
23 never mailed this pair out to --
24 A. Jenny, yes.
25 Q. Okay. So if there was an
0112
1 unopened package, it would have been left in
2 the house?
3 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do they have age groups or
23 are they suggested for like a 10-year-old
24 through a 12-year-old or a 13-year-old
25 through a 15-year-old? Do they do it that
0091
1 way too?
2 A. I never paid any attention if
3 they do.
4 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay.
5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it
6 this way. Did you say you bought more than
7 one set of Bloomi's?
8 A. I can't remember.
9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Why is it that you remember
12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of
13 1996?
14 A. Because --

 

[BOBON]

I think the idea of BR redressing her is very feasible, good points. If the over-sized bloomers were indeed a gift and nearby, he'd have tried to grab whatever was close instead of going back upstairs to cover up whatever happened, assuming the paintbrush and assault came first. It seems like a very child like reation "oh i have done something wrong, let's hide it". Then the rest of Rs might have eventually found her, rest of staging took place (fibers on duct tape etc) and putting her favorite blanket over her, possibly to make it easier to carry her to another spot.