Size 12/14 Bloomies

I agree that JonBenet probably wouldn't have put the big panties on herself. That someone could have gone to her chest of drawers to just scrounge around

I might be wrong but wasn't it so that the size 12 pack was not opened. They were supposed to be a gift to a cousin or something. The hadn't actually passed on the gift yet as JB supposedly wanted to keep them for herself(she probably could not imagine the size of them ;)).

Could be a curiosity thing to open the pack and try them on. Maybe something like this could spark of a PR rage, JSB.
 
I have seen for myself how baggy the larger Bloomies are on my daughter and I would like everyone else to see this for themselves. However, I wouldn't take photos of her because I think it would be demeaning and just wrong so, I have purchased the materials to make a model of my daughter. I've done adult models in the past for theatre so it won't take me too long. I only need to do her torso and upper legs. When the model is set and painted, I shall take photos of the 4/6 Bloomies on it and then the 12/14 Bloomies on it. Then everyone will be able to see just how ill-fitting the larger size undies are. It will be a good experiment as my daughter is almost exactly the same height and weight as Jonbenet was when she died. The model will however be very slightly larger than the live model!

A further point:- The packet is secured with a nylon tie which cannot be broken. A child would find it very difficult to open with packet. The nylon tie needs to be cut.
 
"I agree that JonBenet probably wouldn't have put the big panties on herself. That someone could have gone to her chest of drawers to just scrounge around, not knowing there were some larger ones, and just happened to see the days of the week which might make it look like Pagans had done it because of Christmas Day."

Well, Wednesday is named for Odin, the king of the Norse gods. (Hail the Allfather!) And, during the days when he was widely worshipped, it was common to honor him with human sacrifice. Not only that, but Santa Claus borrows strongly from him (Later on that story!).

"One guy tried putting his little daughter into a suitcase, several years ago."

That was Ned, I think! (Wish he were here now)

"A further point:- The packet is secured with a nylon tie which cannot be broken. A child would find it very difficult to open with packet. The nylon tie needs to be cut."

Hmm. Let me think on this.
 
Hmm. Let me think on this.

Yes, I know. Nylon cord, where have I heard that before...
 
I want to bump this because I don't want this thread to die, it's too important and informative. Waiting for photos of "knickers" on a stationary dress model, right? BTW Jayelles, the first time I heard the word "knickers" was when one of the Prince Charles/Camilla Parker Bowles scandals hit regarding the intercepted cell phone call where he said he wanted to be in her knickers or something. I didn't know what they were but it wasn't hard to figure it out! lol!
 
Glad you revived it. There was somethig else about the oversized underwear.

This is an excerpt from one of Patsy's interviews:

21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to

22 understand is whether -- we are trying to

23 understand why she is wearing such a large

24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can

25 help us if you have a recollection of it.

0084

1 A. I am sure that I put the package

2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened

3 them and put them on.

Okay, she says very clearly that she put them in JB's bathroom and that JB put them on.
It goes on:

4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought

5 these sometime in mid to early December, is

6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,

7 you bought them in November?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing

10 these? And I don't mean this specific day

11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you

12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in

13 this package of underpants and had been

14 wearing them since the trip to New York in

15 November?

16 A. I don't remember.

17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the

18 laundry for the family, that is part of her

19 duties; is that correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash

22 clothes on occasion?

23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.

24 Q. Do you have any recollection of

25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?

0085

1 A. Not specifically.

2 Q. Was it something that, the fact

3 that she is wearing these underpants designed

4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and

5 I will give you a minute to think about it

6 because I know it is tough to try to pin

7 down a couple of months of casual

8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any

9 conversations with her concerning the fact

10 that she is wearing underwear that is just

11 too large for her?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it

14 was, if it had caught your attention or came

15 to your attention, do you think you might

16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't

17 fit, put something on that fits, that is

18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,

19 had come to your attention --

20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the

21 package had been opened, we made the

22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and

23 use them because, you know, we weren't going

24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,

25 so.

0086

1 I mean, if you have ever seen

2 these little panties, there is not too much

3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm

4 sure even if they were a little bit big,

5 they were special because we got them up

6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they

7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was

8 fine with me.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see

10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?

11 THE WITNESS: No.

The question was, if Patsy knew about them and knew that JB had them on, would she have told JB NOT to wear them. Patsy CHANGES her story to say that they really weren't that much different.

Det. Harmer jumps right on that:

12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically

13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?

14 And I am not saying --

15 THE WITNESS: They were just in

16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I

17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all

18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can

19 help herself to whatever is in there.

20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not

21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to

22 Jenny.

23 THE WITNESS: Right.

24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in

25 JonBenet's bathroom?

0087

1 A. Right.

2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm

3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then

4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet

5 express an interest in them; therefore, you

6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --

7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I

8 think I bought them with the intention of

9 sending them in a package of Christmas things

10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that

11 together, so I just put them in her, her

12 panty drawer. So they were free game.

She changes from "I'm sure" to "maybe" and "we decided," and "I never saw them on her," and this and that.

But it gets more interesting from there!

The story is that the Ramsey PI's took the pack with the size 12's and that they kept them until the DA took over in 2002.

WHAT?! They had to know how important these panites were. They know that the BPD's claim that the DNA came from the manufacturer could be proven or disproven by testing them. The Ramseys SAY they want all irrelevant evidence cleared up so LE can move on, then they pull a stunt like this?! This is what they call "cooperation?!" Isn't that WITHOLDING EVIDENCE? Isn't that OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE?
 
Yes, that size 12 staging went pretty wrong. Good post SD, very informative.
 
tumble said:
Yes, that size 12 staging went pretty wrong. Good post SD, very informative.

I can't take credit for it. I was inspired elsewhere.
 
SuperDave said:
12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically

13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?

14 And I am not saying --

15 THE WITNESS: They were just in

16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I

17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all

18 of her clean panties in a drawer
and she can

19 help herself to whatever is in there.

20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not

21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to

22 Jenny.

23 THE WITNESS: Right.

24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in

25 JonBenet's bathroom?

0087

1 A. Right.

2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm

3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then

4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet

5 express an interest in them; therefore, you

6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --

7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I

8 think I bought them with the intention of

9 sending them in a package of Christmas things

10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that

11 together, so I just put them in her, her

12 panty drawer.
So they were free game.

She changes from "I'm sure" to "maybe" and "we decided," and "I never saw them on her," and this and that.

Twice Patsy states she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer, but from memory there were no size-12's recovered from her panty drawer, they are listed on the search-warrants!


But it gets more interesting from there!

The story is that the Ramsey PI's took the pack with the size 12's and that they kept them until the DA took over in 2002.

WHAT?! They had to know how important these panites were. They know that the BPD's claim that the DNA came from the manufacturer could be proven or disproven by testing them. The Ramseys SAY they want all irrelevant evidence cleared up so LE can move on, then they pull a stunt like this?! This is what they call "cooperation?!" Isn't that WITHOLDING EVIDENCE? Isn't that OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE?

Also given the latter detail regarding the Ramsey PI's then if they had the remainder of the pack of size-12's, I assume they were not in her panty drawer?

From memory again either LHP or Patsy stated the size-12's were placed in the dresser in the bedroom?
 
1 A. I am sure that I put the package

2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened

3 them and put them on.

From Jayelle we know that opening this box would be very hard for a child.
This statement is probably not true.
 
tumble said:
1 A. I am sure that I put the package

2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened

3 them and put them on.

From Jayelle we know that opening this box would be very hard for a child.
This statement is probably not true.
Well I know that my Tootsie can't open these ties. She's not allowed to use our scissors. She has her own little plastic craft scissors, but they wouldn't cut through this nylon tie - they would just "chew" it.

That's not to say that the Ramseys didn't allow JonBenet to use real scissors.

I just don't believe that:-

a) JonBenet would have wanted to wear these outsized knickers which would have slid down so that the crotch was swinging around her knees or that

b) Patsy would have allowed her to wear them.

I don't know about anyone else, but there has always been a "pride" thing in our family about having decent underwear in case one should be in an accident!

I cannot believe for one minute that a 6 year old little girl who is used to being dressed up in costom made clothes would either want to or be allowed to wear a pair of knickers that look like they belong to her mother. Elsewhere, a poster has suggested that the larger size might actually have been for Patsy herself. I don't know if they would quite have fitted Patsy. They will stetch to 38 inches.

To those awaiting the model - it is made. I made it on Friday but it collapsed slightly when I moved it to our utility room to hang up to dry. I never made a model with legs before! It had to dry for 24 hours but I've been away over the weekend. Should be rock-solid now. I'll check it tomorrow to see if I can use it. I also need to measure it because the modelling material is quite thick and it might be bigger than our Tootsie.

If it's too big or otherwise unusable, I'll try again.
 
You're certainly energetic going to all the trouble of making a model. We appreciate it.

Do any of us mothers remember whether we had to still dress our six year olds? I can't for the life of me recall. (Mine are in 30's and 40's now.)

I'm pretty sure I didn't check their underpants, right? Or did I? Whatever was normally being done at the time, I did it. Some of everything.

And was a one-woman car pool for activities for my five kids' and their pals whose mothers were alway " too busy" and trusted me. I bought clothes at the best stores, though all of us do some bargain shopping too, a game. Hm..... did I inspect underpants? lol
 
Eagle1 said:
You're certainly energetic going to all the trouble of making a model. We appreciate it.

Do any of us mothers remember whether we had to still dress our six year olds? I can't for the life of me recall. (Mine are in 30's and 40's now.)

I'm pretty sure I didn't check their underpants, right? Or did I? Whatever was normally being done at the time, I did it. Some of everything.

And was a one-woman car pool for activities for my five kids' and their pals whose mothers were alway " too busy" and trusted me. I bought clothes at the best stores, though all of us do some bargain shopping too, a game. Hm..... did I inspect underpants? lol

It is fact that Patsy was in JonBenet's bathroom Christmas day. She and JonBenet had a tiff over the red turtleneck. The turtleneck ended up balled up in JonBenet's bathroom. Who balled it up? Anyhoo...

If I were to go to a Christmas dinner, I would have bathed my six-year-old daughter. And this is very important:

JonBenet wore leotards under her black velvet pants. Anyone who has had a six-year-old girl would know that she would need help getting them on. And while getting them on, you would notice what type of underwear she would be wearing.

The "Wednesday" panties did not have black fibers from the black velvet pants. Furthermore, if JonBenet did wear the size 12 panties under her leotards, the panties would have been wrinkled due to the size.

So folks, if there were no black fibers, no wrinkles, no skid marks...then the answer would be NO...she did not wear those sz 12 panties to the Whites.
 
I read it pretty fast, so I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by not giving credit but some important points were made in this thread.
!. "the panties had to say wednesday" sounds very real to me. In fact, it sounds like one of those panic decisions - "oh my God, what if someone saw her in those" type of thing that afterward looks completely irrational.
2. What do you suppose PR meant when she said she hadn't gotten it together to send them to Atlanta? Do you think she meant she hadn't mailed any xmas presents yet, or just forgot the underwear gift?
3. you would have to pin a size 12 on a little girl like that - as someone commented, they'd be falling off of her.
 
I though previously that the size 12 was staging to suggest that an intuder put those on her, but reading the transcript above I just don't understand why PR would say that JB put them on herself.

The easy thing would be to say
'yes, that look strange, I have no idea how that got on her'
instead it seems that she really tries to understand how she could have gotten into them herself.
Either PR is very shrewd of she didn't put them on her or I am just plain wrong with my asumption above.
Right now I am leaning towards that PR didn't put her in those panties.
What does JR say when asked the quesion about the size 12?
If he says something like
'yes, that look strange, I have no idea how that got on her'
I think he was the one who dressed her in them.
 
Toltec said:
It is fact that Patsy was in JonBenet's bathroom Christmas day. She and JonBenet had a tiff over the red turtleneck. The turtleneck ended up balled up in JonBenet's bathroom. Who balled it up? Anyhoo...

If I were to go to a Christmas dinner, I would have bathed my six-year-old daughter. And this is very important:

JonBenet wore leotards under her black velvet pants. Anyone who has had a six-year-old girl would know that she would need help getting them on. And while getting them on, you would notice what type of underwear she would be wearing.

The "Wednesday" panties did not have black fibers from the black velvet pants. Furthermore, if JonBenet did wear the size 12 panties under her leotards, the panties would have been wrinkled due to the size.

So folks, if there were no black fibers, no wrinkles, no skid marks...then the answer would be NO...she did not wear those sz 12 panties to the Whites.
Not that I believe for a moment that JB actually wore those size 12 panties to the Whites, but just a 'theoretical' explanation: if JB wore leotards between her panties and the black velvet pants, maybe this would have prevented fibers from the black pants from getting on her panties?

Do you or others know if JB's black velvet pants had traces of urine or feces on them too? For often when children have accidents, not only the panties get dirty but also the pants, at least to some degree.
I don't believe JB ever went to bed that night, and suppose the rage was over a wetting or soiling accident, she might still have been dressed in the clothes she was wearing to the Whites'.
 
rashomon said:
I don't believe JB ever went to bed that night, and suppose the rage was over a wetting or soiling accident, she might still have been dressed in the clothes she was wearing to the Whites'.

rashomon,
I've seen no mention of her black velvet pants wrt wetting/soiling etc.

IMO JonBenet was wearing her day clothes when she was killed!


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