Small Details that are interesting in the Cooper Harris case, #2

[Evie Ivy Over]

It really doesn't matter at all if he opened it or even saw it. The whole problem in these cases (as a whole) is that the parent thinks their child is where they are supposed to be (daycare). They can look directly at pictures of their child, read an email from daycare, talk to the other parent, remotely turn off their car alarm (that the child had set off from inside)- NOTHING is going to "remind" them that they left their kid in the car because they don't know they left their kid in the car.

I believe this is a psychological phenomenon that has been researched (but not by me, so I don't have the details).

 

[tlcya]

This may be off topic and neither here nor there but . . .

Have you ever had that experience where you get up to go do something or head into a room for a reason, and then completely blank on why you are there? you have to go back to where that thought fell out of your head to remember it? If you don't you have to let it go have it be completely out of your head til some stimuli will bring it unbidden, into your head?

Not that this is the same but some of the same principals would apply I would think. Random stimuli in the day causing you a moment of connection to something forgotten. (Just MOO)

 

[NotALawyer]

It really doesn't matter at all if he opened it or even saw it. The whole problem in these cases (as a whole) is that the parent thinks their child is where they are supposed to be (daycare). They can look directly at pictures of their child, read an email from daycare, talk to the other parent, remotely turn off their car alarm (that the child had set off from inside)- NOTHING is going to "remind" them that they left their kid in the car because they don't know they left their kid in the car.

This is why the email isn't proof of anything to me (other things are in this case though). The memory trigger in one case was a spouse asking specifically about the drop off - "What did the teacher say about the new dress?" - I believe the outfit had been a gift from the teacher. In this case the father realized he had no memory of the teacher seeing the dress, and then OMG, she must still be in the car! The communication would have to trigger thoughts specific to that morning to break through the "auto-pilot" state the parent is in.

 

[lndigo]

This is actually a good question! Maybe the children don't die because of the weather year round, but during the winter months, are there children forgotten for 4-8 hours in a car while parents work??

Under the car seat covers on both of our rear facing car seats is a layer of styrofoam. I think this causes the car seats to feel warmer in both the summer and winter. I would assume children are left in cars accidentally (or on purpose) year round, but it's not as dangerous in the winter.

"Expanded Polystyrene foam, is the foam used in bicycle helmets and picnic coolers. It is a safety device added to some carseats to protect a child's head and upper torso from impact forces by absorbing those forces."

http://www.carseatsite.com/FAQ.htm

Not to mention, most children are probably bundled up in the winter. We keep blankets in the back seat for the kids to put on their laps in winter. Some people strap them in with winter coats on.

 

[Hippiemomof5]

Under the car seat covers on both of our rear facing car seats is a layer of styrofoam. I think this causes the car seats to feel warmer in both the summer and winter. I would assume children are left in cars accidentally (or on purpose) year round, but it's not as dangerous in the winter.

"Expanded Polystyrene foam, is the foam used in bicycle helmets and picnic coolers. It is a safety device added to some carseats to protect a child's head and upper torso from impact forces by absorbing those forces."

http://www.carseatsite.com/FAQ.htm

Not to mention, most children are probably bundled up in the winter. We keep blankets in the back seat for the kids to put on their laps in winter. Some people strap them in with winter coats on.

Hmm, I hadn't thought about that being a protectant against weather in the winter. We do not wear winter coats in our carseats, but they do have blankets, of course, we don't leave our kids in the vehicle even to run into a store.

 

[curioser]

This is actually a good question! Maybe the children don't die because of the weather year round, but during the winter months, are there children forgotten for 4-8 hours in a car while parents work??

Right. Do we just not hear about these? Temps would get cold in the car all day, but in most xl area it would not get cold enough for long enough to kill the child- especially if the car was nice and toasty when the parent got out.

 

[curioser]

I understand what you are saying, however I believe that RH KNEW Cooper was left in the car, I believe he intended for this to happen. He would have remembered day care, it should have triggered his memory at some point he didn't take Cooper to day care, something would seem off to him. Going to day care would be a production in itself. Hard to forget after strapping him in the car, making a production to take him to Chick-fli-A then less than a minute he forgets??? really?

Oh I'm with you there. But if he is sticking to the "I forgot" story, he has to have completely forgotten, as in other cases.

 

[PaperDoll]

Oh I'm with you there. But if he is sticking to the "I forgot" story, he has to have completely forgotten, as in other cases.

Oh, he is most likely going to stick with this "I forgot story" :banghead: How many criminals confess to their crimes? not many... If I were on that jury I would have a really hard time believing he forgot, less than a minute, after having breakfast with his "little buddy", then strapping him in his car seat only to FORGET???? I also believe he saw Cooper when he was getting out of his car to go into work. I also believe he saw him on his lunch hour when tossing in the light bulbs. I also believe there was a smell of death in the car when he go in to drive to the movies. I also believe he was over acting when he flew into the parking lot and started acting up. I believe the witnesses who said he was over acting and acting strange, and one witness even said he was more concerned about himself more so than his dead son. IMO, there is no way he forgot. So, the defense wouldn't want me as a juror. :jail:

 

[MissJ]

JMO, I can't get over his premonition dream of Cooper being in Jesus' lap.

 

[newone]

JMO, I can't get over his premonition dream of Cooper being in Jesus' lap.

I'd be ok with the dream of the baby being in the arms or lap of Jesus......that is a comfort.....

I'm having trouble with the guitar playing and LH being in a daycare during the same 'vision'/dream/illusion JMO....that seems too much about JRH

 

[CHERIE.T]

immo the dream about the baby sitting on Jesus's lap was part of JH's plan....made him sound like a good dad or something.

 

[newone]

immo the dream about the baby sitting on Jesus's lap was part of JH's plan....made him sound like a good dad or something.

yep you're right.......it would have been ''effective'' IF he had not stepped over line the line and embellished LOL about the guitar performance.....JMHO it was obviously ''self serving''

 

[MissJ]

I don't believe that RH a had a premonition dream at all. It was, to me, a sign of premeditation (and researches hot car deaths) Who has premonitions and then kills their baby?

 

[LambChop]

Someone who felt this was their worst nightmare would be hyper-vigilant and anal about checking to make sure their child was not left in the car. What RH says and what he did just do not line up as simply forgetting. JMO

 

[Donjeta]

This is actually a good question! Maybe the children don't die because of the weather year round, but during the winter months, are there children forgotten for 4-8 hours in a car while parents work??

I think genuine forgetting probably happens pretty much at the same rate all through the year but most of the time being forgotten in a cold car for 4-8 hours may not be enough to kill a child. If the car was warmed up while the parent was driving it is still warmer than the outside temperatute for a while after the car stops, and the child may be warmly dressed. The car protects them from wind and getting wet which may hasten hypothermia in outside conditions. So we might not see these children in the death statistics but as headlines for parents being arrested for child neglect or something like that.



If someone intentionally "forgets" they're more likely to try it in the summer IMO because heatstroke death is faster and more certain; if you "forget" a child in a cold car for the same number of hours and come back after the work day or a couple of hours in the nail salon you may just come back to a hypothermic child who is in need of hospital care but still alive .

 

[human]

I think genuine forgetting probably happens pretty much at the same rate all through the year but most of the time being forgotten in a cold car for 4-8 hours may not be enough to kill a child. If the car was warmed up while the parent was driving it is still warmer than the outside temperatute for a while after the car stops, and the child may be warmly dressed. The car protects them from wind and getting wet which may hasten hypothermia in outside conditions. So we might not see these children in the death statistics but as headlines for parents being arrested for child neglect or something like that.


If someone intentionally "forgets" they're more likely to try it in the summer IMO because heatstroke death is faster and more certain; if you "forget" a child in a cold car for the same number of hours and come back after the work day or a couple of hours in the nail salon you may just come back to a hypothermic child who is in need of hospital care but still alive .

Children's limbs freeze much faster than an adult's.

I imagine the car is the outside temperature in a matter of minutes.

Cars are not insulated against cold. Sitting would decrease circulation.

People in the cold jump up and down or jog in place to warm up.

 

[MissJ]

Someone who felt this was their worst nightmare would be hyper-vigilant and anal about checking to make sure their child was not left in the car. What RH says and what he did just do not line up as simply forgetting. JMO

I agree...I can't leave my house without checking every electric appliance and heat source cause a visiting friend once burned my house down by leaving something on the stove. I'm obsessed with checking!

 

[Donjeta]

Children's limbs freeze much faster than an adult's.

I imagine the car is the outside temperature in a matter of minutes.

Cars are not insulated against cold. Sitting would decrease circulation.

People in the cold jump up and down or jog in place to warm up.

It's not advisable to forget babies in any circumstances but it's usually going to be easier for a baby to survive a couple of hours being in a cold car than a couple of hours in extreme heat imo. It's dry cold in the car and wet cold kills you faster. The car quickly gets a lot hotter than the ambient temperature but it's not going to get any colder than the outside. Even babies who can't jog can produce some body heat by moving their limbs and shivering but once they're too hot and dehydrated there's nothing much they can do to regulate their own temperature. Hypothermic children have been found alive after hours in outside cold temperatures. In some parts of the world babies nap outside when it's well below freezing temperatures and they can easily sleep for a few hours without ill effects when warmly dressed in a cosy pram and shielded from the wind which makes cold bite more.

JMO and of course the results of the experiment will widely vary depending on how cold it is in the car, how the child is dressed and how well the child is able to produce body heat by shivering and voluntary movement, and what happens after the child is found hypothermic (because things may still go wrong during the treatment). Where I work some people hook up their car to an electricity outlet in the winter and start warming it up a couple of hours before they leave work so that might help too.

Another factor in hot car versus cold car deaths is that not all the children died because their parents left them in the hot car. Some were playing outside unsupervised and went in on their own and got trapped. This I think is somewhat less likely to happen in the winter when it's cold enough to freeze to death in a couple of hours because many children probably play outside less than in summery weather. Also, even if the car is unlocked, if it's very cold the doors may freeze shut and are more difficult or even impossible for small children and toddlers to open. I get to open the car doors to my kids all the time in the winter and sometimes I have had to go in through the wrong door because the driver's side door just wouldn't budge.

Interesting article about hypothermia http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoo...-Chill--Then-Stupor--Then-the-Letting-Go.html

There is no precise core temperature at which the human body perishes from cold. At Dachau's cold-water immersion baths, Nazi doctors calculated death to arrive at around 77 degrees Fahrenheit. The lowest recorded core temperature in a surviving adult is 60.8 degrees. For a child it's lower: In 1994, a two-year-old girl in Saskatchewan wandered out of her house into a minus-40 night. She was found near her doorstep the next morning, limbs frozen solid, her core temperature 57 degrees. She lived.

Others are less fortunate, even in much milder conditions. One of Europe's worst weather disasters occurred during a 1964 competitive walk on a windy, rainy English moor; three of the racers died from hypothermia, though temperatures never fell below freezing and ranged as high as 45.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

June 25, 2014
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...found-dead-backseat-hot-car-article-1.1841435

"Although the father appeared panicked as he and several witnesses tried to revive the boy at the scene, police say they have uncovered more disturbing details that prove Harris was more than just a negligent parent. A source told WSB-TV that there is evidence the distraught dad actually knew the child was in the car before he pulled his lifeless body from the SUV.
“Much has changed about the circumstances leading up to the death of this 22-month-old since it was first reported,” Cobb County Police Sgt. Dana Pierce told CNN.

“I’ve been in law enforcement for 34 years. What I know about this case shocks my conscience as a police officer, a father and a grandfather.” Pierce said he could not elaborate on the details, because it was considered an ongoing investigation. But he said Harris’ story had a lot of holes.

Pierce said investigators were no longer sure if little Cooper had been in the SUV for as long as the father initially reported.
“I cannot confirm that the child, as originally reported, was in the car at 9 a.m.,” he said."

I think this whole thing started out as something different than where it has landed after LE viewed all the evidence. They're not just going to back off now and say, oh...we made a mistake. [modsnip]. Or, maybe there's more still we don't know about? Could be, but I doubt it.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

IMO, it's another way in a long list to kill a child where it is too difficult to be 100% sure of malicious intent. A parent can just be 'fed up' with the child and let the forces of nature take care of it for them.

Accidents happen, right? *cough, cough*