South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #2

[Tortoise]

sorry JJ I thought you'd gone. I'll leave it to you because I'll be dipping in and out

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I'll do Tracey unless anyone else?

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks Prime.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv G calls Professor Dempers a forensic pathologist, principal specialist and now is head of the department
Prof D: First page gives info on the instructions I was given and the documents I was given
Prof D: Firstly very Nb to look at the wounds of other members of the family not in isolation of the group
Prof D: Usually the injuries of the individuals in the group are similar
Prof D: Having regard to Teresa and Martin and Rudi's injuries very different
Prof Dempers is reading out his report on the "incise defects" present on the deceased the size.
Also refers to defensive wounds on Teresa's fingers and says that these are not consistent with Henri's

@CapeTownEtc

 

[JudgeJudi]

He says defensive wounds on Teresa's fingers are not consistent with Henri's.

Dempers details the wounds found on each family member. He says Martin and Rudi had similar blows to heads.

He is reading out of a forensic book on self inflicted wounds, and says that it is rare to see them.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 1m1 minute ago

Prof D is reading out of forensic book on self inflicted wounds and advises that it is rare to see them
Prof D: Henri's wounds consistent with what the theory says about self inflicted wounds
Prof D: Finds it hard to believe that the assailant would only scratch Henri
even harder to believe that he would not have moved his body and allowed wounds to have been inflicted

Prof D: doesn't believe the knife would have remained stuck in his abdomen

@CapeTownEtc

 

[JudgeJudi]

Henri's wounds are consistent with what the theory says about self inflicted wounds, Prof Dempers says.

The professor says he finds it hard to believe that the assailant would only scratch Henri.

He says all the factors in case need to be included in formulation. The fact that wounds are on left side of the body, makes it more possible that right handed person inflicted them.

Henri is right handed. This is not being contested.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 1m
Prof D: Accused right handed and fact that abdominal wounds on left side more likely to be self inflicted @CapeTownEtc
Prof D: Taking into account the accused's plea exaplanation and how that influences his findings

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 2m2 minutes ago

Dempers saw Henris plea statement, detailing what happened to him during attack, while compiling his report.

Dempers is a tall, broad man. Speaks quickly but confidently. He is now reading through Henris plea statement again.

@TimesLIVE

 

[JudgeJudi]

Henri is right handed, and the fact that the abdominal are wounds on left side means they are more likely to be self inflicted.

Dempers says the account is that he was involved in altercation and assailant had knife in right hand, and Henri had axe in his right hand.

As person attacked, he got hold of hand and had control of how knife penetrated.

He attempted to strike the assailant's shoulder.

In a situation like that I find it hard that you would hit someone on the opposing shoulder and not the hand holding the knife, he says.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 2m2 minutes ago

Prof D: account is that he was involved in altercation with assailant and he had control over knife being penetrated - no problem
Prof D: hard to believe that you want to hit someone on the opposing shoulder in which they hold the knife
You are also going to swing it wildly to strike
Prof D: 2nd issue is the stabbing and letting go of knife. 1 I find it difficult to believe not standing still

@CapeTownEtc

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 2m2 minutes ago @TimesLIVE

Dempers goes through Henris version of events.1st problem is hitting opposing shoulder of 'assailant' with axe, Dempers states..one would be swinging axe wildly in that situation & not aiming for opposite shoulder.
Botha objects to this as Dempers is not an expert on knife fights. Judge agrees but says B can handle that in x-examination.

 

[JudgeJudi]

He struck the person, and the stabbing took place with both of them still holding on. He then let go of the knife.

He pulled knife out of his side and dropped it. I find it hard to believe they were standing still. If you are fighting, you move around quite vigorously.

Professor says if you are holding a weapon and attacking someone - considering the aggression and severity of the other victims - he doesn't see why alleged attacker would let go of the knife.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 3m3 minutes ago

2nd issue is the knife was stabbed so there could have been control and secondly the knife is dangling form his stomach
why would attacker let go of a weapon mid altercation when he was not injured
Adv Botha objects to this based on speculation and his experience in witnessing knife attacks
Prof D: Severity of stab wound - depth is stated as 1cm that is certainly superficial stab wound
Adv G; evidence is undisputed that the wound didnt go through to the abdominal cavity
Factors that will influence how deep it needs to be to go through the cavity - such as body is round, depends if frontal
Adv G: depth of wound was tested by Dr Albertse with instrument and it said 1cm

@CapeTownEtc

 

[JudgeJudi]

Severity of the larger of the knife wounds: 17mm wide, depth is about 1cm.

He doesn't have any idea how that was established.

Galloway says Dr Albertse had used an instrument to check the depth of the wound but stopped when Henri flinched.

He says it is then hard to determine the depth of the wound.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 3m3 minutes ago

Galloway leads witness to knife wound in Henri's abdomen. Dempers says has no evidence to believe knife entered peritoneal cavity.
Dempers goes to Henris family's wounds. Possible defensive wounds on Rudi's fingers.
Dempers picks up knife in court. D measured width of Henris wound at 17mm.

Botha now stands to begin his x-examination of Professor Dempers. B congratulates Dempers on his recent professorship.

@TimesLIVE

 

[JudgeJudi]

The wound on the right thumb of Teresa and on Rudi's fingers may be defence wounds.

Dempers holds up the knife, shows it goes wider. He measured it. He says it's not razor sharp, and human dermis is relatively strong.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 2m2 minutes ago

Adv Botha starts cross- you have testified as an expert before? Yes So you know your obligations - yes
You are supposed to remain objective even if those concessions hurt the side who has called you to testify - correct
Adv B: do u agree one of the most difficult to determine is suicide, homicide, and other self inflicted injury"
Prof D: I agree
Adv B: You didnt examine the accused's injuries - you relied on photos and description - yes
Adv B: Dr Tiemensma said the chest cuts and the cuts on left forearm were consistent with self inflicted injuries
Adv B: and other injuries were not self inflicted injuries- J.Desai interrupts no she couldn't say the same of others not that she
Adv B: apologises
Adv B: are they all consistent with self inflicted ?

@CapeTownEtc

 

[JudgeJudi]

Botha now cross examining.

Asks if he knows expert Dr Reggie Perumal, who is sitting with the defence. He says he does.

Botha says he must remain objective as an expert witness. Concessions should be fairly made. Dempers agrees.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-17-20170524

[Dr Reggie Perumal attended Reeva's post mortem. He was supposed to testify for the defence but then dipped out. Apparently he agreed with the findings of the State's pathologist.]

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/AJGMolyneaux

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 2m2 minutes ago

Botha tells Dempers that Dr Tiemensma said yesterday that cuts on chest & arm were self-inflicted injuries.