South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #2

[JudgeJudi]

Botha shows with the knife how an attacker could have flicked at Henry's arm.

Tiemensma says that movement would not have resulted in those wounds.

She describes Henri's arm wounds as "so nice and neat".

[Don't you just love this]

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-16-20170523

 

[Estelle]

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 2m2 minutes ago
#VanBreda Botha is now demonstrating with the knife. The blade is long and would be able to reach Henri's arm.

but DrT says the wounds are not consistent with that type of flicking action.

Botha asks Dr to explain how someone would self inflict these cuts. She says it is not only her testimony, there are photographs

of self-inflicted wounds and they look exactly like the ones on Henris arm. Wow.

DrT explains that when you're fighting someone, each cut would be different due to pushing, resistance&pulling.

DrT explains self-inflicted cuts.'when someone does this,they are in control of the cuts(how deep,location) this is consistent..with Henris cuts. These cuts are not caused by flicking movements of knife.'

https://twitter.com/ajgmolyneaux?lang=en

 

[Estelle]

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 39s40 seconds ago
#VanBreda Botha is arguing yet again the cuts could be caused by the knife in attackers hand.DrT reiterates that this is extremely unlikely.

https://twitter.com/ajgmolyneaux?lang=en

 

[JudgeJudi]

She explains self-inflicted cuts:

'When someone does this, they are in control of the cuts (how deep, the location).'

Cutting and slashing means you don't have control of the movement, Tiemensma says.

She says Henri's cuts are not caused by flicking movements of a knife.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-16-20170523

 

[JudgeJudi]

Adv Botha keeps arguing that the cuts could be caused by the knife in attackers hand.

Dr Tiemensma is adamant that the wounds are self inflicted.

She says she doesn't believe his abdominal knife wound was up to 50mm.

A sturdy adult male his size has a layer of fat about 40mm thick.

There was no indication that wound entered the peritoneal cavity. It was only in his subcutaneous fat.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-16-20170523

 

[JudgeJudi]

Botha can try all he likes. This is one argument that he's going to lose ... correction he's lost.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Wow, just wow.

Botha losing his cool with Tiemensma. Judge Desai tells him he is arguing with the witness, tells him to take a few seconds and ask his question again.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-16-20170523

 

[JudgeJudi]

Court adjourned until 2:15pm.

 

[Estelle]

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 3m3 minutes ago
@CapeTownEtc #vanbreda The attacker then retreats so is it then possible that the knife would have stayed in his stomach

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 3m3 minutes ago
Adv B this happened same time as hitting the attacker with axe @CapeTownEtc #vanbreda

Tammy Petersen‏ @TammyPetersen87 4m4 minutes ago
Adv Botha shows how attacker could've flicked knife at Henri #VanBreda's arm. Tiemensma says it wouldn't result in cuts "so nice and neat" .

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 4m4 minutes ago
@CapeTownEtc #vanbreda Adv B: when he got stabbed in the abdomen the fight was over.

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 4m4 minutes ago
@CapeTownEtc #vanbreda position you would expect there to be stab injuries on his left arm

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 4m4 minutes ago
@CapeTownEtc #vanbreda Dr T he says it hurt his hand but he doesn't say here if he let go. If the person starts to stab in counter clockwise

Tracey Stewart‏ @Traceyams 5m5 minutes ago
I am asking if there was still resistance in the knife at stabbing? When did Henri let go of attackers right forearm #vanbreda

https://twitter.com/traceyams?lang=en

 

[Estelle]

Anthony Molyneaux‏ @AJGMolyneaux 3m3 minutes ago
#VanBreda Botha puts it to DrT that when Henri got stabbed in stomach,fight was over.DrT argues against this but court adjourns for lunch.

https://twitter.com/ajgmolyneaux?lang=en

 

[JudgeJudi]

Dr T is the best witness I've seen for a very long time.

All together gang:

http://supersimplelearning.com/songs/original-series/one/if-youre-happy/

 

[Marples]

Dr T is the best witness I've seen for a very long time.

All together gang:

http://supersimplelearning.com/songs/original-series/one/if-youre-happy/

Indeed! If she's as compelling in person as she seems in print, this perhaps explains Galloway's not going through every witness on cross like a dose of salts. She's probably very confident in the good doctors testimony. HvB will need a dose of anti gastro medicine if this keeps up [emoji4]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tortoise]

You've lost this Botha. Would have been better to not cross-examine this doctor, because the more depth she goes into in her reasoned arguments the more it shows you've lost. Oh yes!


She also pointed out that defence counsel Piet Botha’s defence strategy was — literally — textbook.
Van Breda looked crestfallen as Tiemensma‚ a clinical forensic expert‚ described wounds that were probably self-inflicted.

Last week‚ she explained that Van Breda's cuts and scratches were superficial‚ parallel‚ uniform and in reachable areas. They were also “symmetrical”‚ and showed there was no “movement” when they happened.

In other words‚ the wounds were simply too perfect to have happened in a life-and-death situation.
On Tuesday‚ under cross-examination for the first time in the trial‚ Tiemensma read out of a textbook that revealed the defence counsel’s strategy to dispute her findings.

<modsnip>

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/20...flicted-Expert-stands-up-to-cross-examination

 

[Tortoise]

I'm still not convinced this is a given though. You've only to look back at what Masipa did with Cpt. Mangena's superb evidence. She ignored it!

It's so good to see Botha on the back foot though.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Wow, just wow.

Botha losing his cool with Tiemensma. Judge Desai tells him he is arguing with the witness, tells him to take a few seconds and ask his question again.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-van-breda-axe-murder-trial-day-16-20170523

This is good to hear and just what didn't happen in the OP trial. It really does show how weak Judge M was.

 

[Tortoise]

This is good to hear and just what didn't happen in the OP trial. It really does show how weak Judge M was.

I suppose I should take hope from the fact that Desai is following and taking an active part, unlike Judge M who only seemed interested in timing the tea breaks and telling the public gallery to be quiet.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Botha gets really riled when he is on the back foot. This doctor seems to be taking it all in her stride. Go girl!

 

[Tortoise]

Virtually no argument about the length of time he could have been unconscious. Did Botha give up on that one lol?

 

[Estelle]

Van Breda murder trial &#8211; what we know so far
Tanya Farber | 23 May, 2017 10:12

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2017/05/23/Van-Breda-murder-trial-–-what-we-know-so-far

 

[Estelle]

Anthony Molyneaux&#8207; @AJGMolyneaux 2m2 minutes ago
#VanBreda Welcome back! We are in court waiting for Judge Desai to begin proceedings. @TimesLIVE

https://twitter.com/ajgmolyneaux?lang=en