South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

[JudgeJudi]

In his initial statement Henri said the attacker wore dark jeans, black jumbo jersey, black cloves (sic) and a homemade dark grey mask . When he provided his Plea Explanation this changed to dark clothes, gloves and a balaclava type of mask. No doubt it became apparent during a conference with Botha that the attacker's head needed to be covered to avoid leaving any hairs at the crime scene.

There's a very important distinction to be drawn between the two. A mask covers some or all of the face. A balaclava is a totally different thing altogether as it always covers the entire head and exposes the eyes. The mouth may or may not be covered. If you Google 'images masks' you won't see one single mask that looks remotely like a balaclava.

Henri said in his Initial Statement "I only saw his eyes the time he was in the house. It will be difficult for me to identify the person if I see the person's whole face but will recognise his eyes and voice". He'll recognise his eyes!!! Really!!! He'll recognise his voice. Really!!! The attacker never spoke, he laughed. Good luck with that one. What absolute balderdash. This statement was not included in the Plea Explanation. No surprises there.

Another issue I have with the description is there is no mention of the attacker's footwear. The area outside the bedroom was awash with blood, it was on the stairs and was dripping down from the upstairs hallway onto the floor below. How is it possible that a person could walk from the bedroom and down the stairs

a) without dripping blood absolutely everywhere he walked as his hands (gloved or not) and clothing would have been covered in it?

b) without leaving bloody footprints as there was blood on the bedroom floor, large pools on the floor outside the bedroom and on the stairs?

All footprints were accounted for.

Henri said he started to chase the person but slipped and fell. By the time he got up, the person had left the house via the open kitchen door. Why were there no bloody footprints on the path down the side of the house, on the gate or gate handle.

It seems totally implausible that an attacker would exit the house/estate dressed in bloodstained clothing, or that he would take the time to remove a balaclava/mask and change his bloody clothing. The temperature was between 19-20C after midnight. Hardly the sort of temp. I would expect to see someone wearing a balaclava.

 

[JudgeJudi]

What happened to the nine dishcloths and mop evidence? Was there no blood on them after all? Will that be something Joubert deals with?

I was expecting Sharlene Otto to testify about those.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I'm feeling so angry with this case today and I'm on the warpath. I'll have more to say later.

 

[Interested Bystander]

HVB was also charged with defeating the ends of justice. Was there anything specific for this charge? I don't recall anything being raised and have assumed it was his lying that was the problem. Could there be anything else about which we have heard nothing?

 

[JudgeJudi]

HVB was also charged with defeating the ends of justice. Was there anything specific for this charge? I don't recall anything being raised and have assumed it was his lying that was the problem. Could there be anything else about which we have heard nothing?

Defeating the ends of justice is considered a very serious crime that involves one person attempting to misdirect the direction of justice to influence the outcome of a case. In many instances, the motivation is to allow a guilty person to escape full punishment for the crimes that they have committed.

It can include tampering, concealing, destroying, fabricating or disposing of evidence or making false statements to the police.

 

[Duchy]

Oh wow I am so late to this and have LOTS of catching up to do. Lovely to see familiar faces.

 

[JudgeJudi]

The landlord found the room Henri and Danielle had been renting in a filthy and disgusting state as I’ve described earlier.

The family home was well maintained and kept it in perfect condition, so the only explanation I can think of for him to live in disgusting conditions is drugs. Earlier this year he and Danielle were both charged with being in possession of dagga aka pot. The charge against HvB was withdrawn after Danielle told the court the drugs were hers and her charge was dropped on the condition that she sees a psychologist.

There were rumours that he was a tik (methamphetamine) addict, that he’d been in rehab in SA and that he’d had a brain scan while at uni in Melbourne. Methamphetamines are known to trigger psychotic episodes including very violent behaviour. I found another article today which points to the fact that he may have been using drugs for several years.

“My son revealed that Rudi had told him in 2013, ‘I’m worried my brother is on something’. She doesn’t know what the 'something was'. “Teresa never referred to Henri’s suspected drug use – she would have wanted to protect her child at all costs; she was mad about her children. She and Martin would have wanted to keep anything like that from their friends”.

Ben Rootman, family spokesman, refuses to comment on speculation that Henri was a drug user. Even after the Sunday Times newspaper reported Henri had been admitted to a clinic in Bellville, Cape Town, he wouldn’t be drawn. “We’re not going to comment on speculation and can’t confirm whether Henri was admitted to the Tijger Clinic”. The clinic treats patients suffering from mental illnesses such as bipolar disorder and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) as well as addictions to alcohol and drugs.

A close family friend said that Rudi was the extrovert who immediately crept into your heart. Henri is quieter, a loner. Rudi and Marli played more prominent roles in the family.

[URL]https://www.pressreader.com/south-africa/you-south-africa/20150219/281505044647658[/URL]

A friend of Teresa who had known her for 33 years said, “As a way of getting closure I started an album with photos of the van Bredas during their visits to us. In one photo Henri is about six or seven years old. All the children are sitting together on a couch watching TV. He’s on his own. He was definitely something of a loner”.

Several months before HvB met Danielle he was seen arriving alone at the Rodriguez Concert and leaving alone.

I don't know what his problem is but he definitely seems to have some issues. He totally creeps me out.

 

[Interested Bystander]

JJ, how about very high functioning Aspergers? His behaviour is not so different from very high functioning Aspergers where the child has trouble making friends but maybe exceptionally bright. They can be disinterested in personal hygiene and and are loners and will readily take drugs (pretty much sums up HvB). If triggered by anxiety they can fly into dreadful rages and on occasion are known to murder. They almost always attack family members who have aggravated them. They can also lose consciousness when very stressed.

I have always thought there is something odd about him that I just cannot put my finger on.

Having said all that, I would be very surprised if he suffered from Aspergers. Surely it would have been diagnosed by now and also his medical records would probably show some strange traits/behavioural problems. When I heard there might be a neurologist on the case I did wonder whether some shocking truth would emerge but it seems not.


Edit

Nah! Aspies are known to have a problem with lying, ie not being able too! :waitasec: That is definitely not one of his traits.

 

[Interested Bystander]

JJ, how about very high functioning Aspergers? His behaviour is not so different from very high functioning Aspergers where the child has trouble making friends but maybe exceptionally bright. They can be disinterested in personal hygiene and and are loners and will readily take drugs (pretty much sums up HvB). If triggered by anxiety they can fly into dreadful rages and on occasion are known to murder. They almost always attack family members who have aggravated them. They can also lose consciousness when very stressed.

I have always thought there is something odd about him that I just cannot put my finger on.

Having said all that, I would be very surprised if he suffered from Aspergers. Surely it would have been diagnosed by now and also his medical records would probably show some strange traits/behavioural problems. When I heard there might be a neurologist on the case I did wonder whether some shocking truth would emerge but it seems not.


Edit

Nah! Aspies are known to have a problem with lying, ie not being able too! :waitasec: That is definitely not one of his traits.

Edit. To not too.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I was listening carefully to what you had to say IB until I reached "and on occasion are known to murder". The problem for me with that is that this couldn't have been more brutal and it was 3 members of his family and nearly a fourth. That's a big step up from murdering one. I know I've said it before but I can't get my head around an axe being used. No matter what he says or what is proven, this is the single thing that is driving me to distraction, especially since we'll never find out why he did it in the first place. That and the fact that Rudi took such a long time to die, Marli was still alive, and he knew it, and yet he did nothing. What normal person is capable of any of this.

On the subject of possible motive, I don't believe the argument with between Marli, Martin and her mother 17 days earlier had anything to do with it at all. Having an attractive 15-16 year old girl who seems to be falling into a rather intense relationship to the point where her grades were falling at an important stage of her schooling (exams were coming up) would be more than enough for any parents to criticise in some way, and we all know how teenagers can react. In this particular instance it seems as though Martin started the ball rolling with the comment about her weight gain, “Then my mum came and ***** literally got so much worse. My mum was attacking me more than ever, more than my dad was”. Further, the neighbour who heard an argument later never said she heard a female voice and, once again, Henri's version in his Initial Statement was quite different to that in his PE.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I don't think the argument 17 days earlier was relevant, other than it showed there was family discord. The huge argument heard the night of the murder about which we know nothing has to be relevant. I agree no female voice was heard the evening of the murder. I suspect Marli had gone to bed and Teresa may also not still have been downstairs. Maybe Henri was being honest about it being the boys left downstairs after dinner. If the girls had heard an argument I think they may well have thought better to stay where they were rather than get involved. All guesswork, of course. From the brutal killing aspect when an Aspie loses total control they can act as though they are completely insane. Of course, only a very few Aspie's resort to this vicious violence but it is not unknown. I only threw in the possibility as an idea to explain his vicious attack.

There is definitely something weird about HvB. Not only does he have no friends, though the extended family thought of him as a lovely boy, but he was into drugs which may well have caused some sort of brain damage. I really am surprised we have heard nothing about his medical status and whether or not he had been taking drugs at any time. Rumours, if they are to be believed, indicate he was addicted enough to be placed into rehab.

I was only throwing the Aspie projection into the mix because you asked for ideas. As you know, I think, my daughter is a scientific officer (molecular biologist) for a charity for children with brain dysfunction due to gene depletions amongst other genetic problems. She hears daily of children who can be loving and affectionate, although loners, who can suddenly become violent and uncontrollable against their parents/carers with the problem becoming more difficult to handle as the children mature. There is another aspect to Aspergers that is of interest and that is that those affected often fiddle repetitively with something. It may be something like tapping a pencil; how about twisting a ring all day?

I found it interesting that Marli referred to him as a "dick". In street parlance as I am sure you know it refers to somebody who is a bit of an idiot who does stupid things amongst other definitions. It is a pity she is not a witness because she could throw so much light on HvB and the family.

JJ, Tortoise does not think there is anything psychologically wrong with the boy and she makes her points extremely well and it would be hard to argue against them.

I can find only two reason for his behaviour. Either he is a thoroughly nasty individual with a violent temper (unseen by almost everyone who knows him) or he was insanely disturbed that evening (for reasons unknown) and was totally out of his head. I doubt whether we shall ever know the true story.

 

[Tortoise]

I think you may have misunderstood me IB. I think he planned what he did, whether that be in the hours beforehand or days, weeks or months beforehand, as opposed to running downstairs in a flash of anger, grabbing the axe and hacking at everyone that came his way. Which suggests to me that it wasn't done in a substance stupor, he was methodical etc as I have posted before, taking the dog out first, careful to not leave prints etc, and he had harboured a grudge if the argument that night is linked, and I think it was.

However, I don't say there is nothing psychologically wrong with him. I think there very definitely is. His gait, detachment from people, eyes, and I don't know what to call it but it's like a hard robotic shell where nothing like distress or emotion registers in his face or body, his rigidity and isolation in his surroundings, very rarely I see a flicker of unease, tells me this isn't something like nerves. He listens but he's not fluid, he's like ice, so it's a one way traffic, there is no give back. I've mentioned his stutter before, and it doesn't surprise me - it's like he is locked up inside.

That long call to the emergency handler is an example. Emotion never came into it. His family were dead and dying and he had no emotion. He didn't get frustrated with the computer problems, it was like listening to a robot and I had the impression he would have continued in that same tone if it had taken all day. So I would say it isn't that he keeps a lid on his emotions but that there is a void of emotions. He wasn't phased by the death of his family, or his own capabilities in being able to axe people to death, he could operate just as normal and think about things like landmarks to direct the driver. Even in shock one would have some kind of disruption to clear thinking.

The cigarettes he smoked and left to burn out on the kitchen floor. I don't think he smoked them to calm himself, I think he smoked them to pass the time and enjoy himself with no parents left to tell him not to trash the home. Marli and Rudi were alive and in trauma and pain, and he smoked. I think he had finished his clean up and was waiting for them to die of blood loss, because he couldn't disturb the scene again and his final placement of the weapons, to go back and finish them off.

The lies he tells are a whole other story. He thinks I really don't care if you believe me or not, it's a level of contempt. He said he saw the emergency numbers on the fridge but didn't think they were of any help to him. Why didn't he say he never focused on them? I don't know how intelligent he is but something like that isn't that hard to lie about. He expects belief, and it comes from a superior stance.

I wouldn't know about aspergers, but I'd say psychopathy without a doubt.

I have wondered if his grudge was with Rudi and as it developed he had to kill all the witnesses. Maybe he wouldn't have done if they'd stayed asleep, but I don't really believe that's what happened. I do believe he set out to kill them all. I don't think it was to get the money, but that he felt he was persecuted and that they were on to him, he probably felt like an island, isolated as he still appears, and he couldn't function in a successful family, be allowed to do what he wanted. Petty.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I agree with all you've said Tortoise. I too believe he had some sort of psychotic episode and I only mentioned the drugs due to it being mentioned a number of times, including by Rudi. The bottom line is we're never going to know what caused him to go off the rails that night. It's a shame no-one thought to have him assessed either before or after the event. All I can say is there's something very wrong with him, and that's truly frightening.

 

[Tortoise]

I think Marli could answer some of these questions, but I understand why she probably won't want to, and I would definitely not swap shoes with her. I'm not saying I think she knows Henri is guilty or that she suspects he is or suspected he would be capable of this. But she will know about him not being authentically emotional or having empathy. Even though he will probably have become an expert at mimicking both.

 

[Estelle]

It might be useful to look at the Hare Psychopathy Checklist

The twenty traits assessed by the PCL-R score are:

glib and superficial charm
grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
need for stimulation
pathological lying
cunning and manipulativeness
lack of remorse or guilt
shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
callousness and lack of empathy
parasitic lifestyle
poor behavioral controls
sexual promiscuity
early behavior problems
lack of realistic long-term goals
impulsivity
irresponsibility
failure to accept responsibility for own actions
many short-term marital relationships
juvenile delinquency
revocation of conditional release
criminal versatility

Each of the twenty items is given a score of 0, 1, or 2 based on how well it applies to the subject being tested. A prototypical psychopath would receive a maximum score of 40, while someone with absolutely no psychopathic traits or tendencies would receive a score of zero. A score of 30 or above qualifies a person for a diagnosis of psychopathy

http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hare-Psychopathy-Checklist.html#ixzz4qD4ye5lI

The most prominent symptoms of a psychopath is antisocial behaviour, having no conscience, being highly manipulative, being a fluent and convincing liar and being superficially charming. Psychopaths are thrill seekers who view others as fodder for exploitation.

Someone can't be diagnosed as a Psychopath before 18 years of age but there is usually evidence of Conduct Disorder before that age.

Not all psychopaths are mad axe men. They all aren't lurking in a dark alleyway waiting to pounce on their next unsuspecting victim. Such Psychopaths wreak havoc and cause misery, either with their family or in general society. However, the potential to go down the homicidal route is more likely to occur in psychopaths than in anyone else with a psychiatric condition, illness or personality disorder.
Despite being very good at manipulating others for their own ends and appearing to be superficially charming, a psychopath often runs into trouble with the law or some authority because of their impulsiveness and because they don't spend little if any time weighing up the pros and cons of the possible consequences of any action they may undertake. It appears that the psychopath has to do something bad or wrong to keep some demon inside them at bay.

Being caught often makes the psychopath believe they were justified to commit the offence in the first place, be it physical violence, murder, theft or fraud, and that the victim or victims had it coming and deserved it, as psychopath's have a right, so they believe, to do what they want, when they want do it, where they want do it and to who they want. If they go down the path of murder or violence, or even robbery or fraud, they dehumanise their victims, not seeing them as people with feelings, hopes and aspirations, but merely as objects.

Imagine feeling nothing towards anybody else, and never feeling bad about anything you've ever done. Only consider feeling deafened emotion when something directly impacts you. However, psychopaths do experience, and feel emotions, contrary to popular belief, but it is shallow and deafened. Due to being egocentric they don't see other people as having them, and it is their own feelings that they care about, no one else's.

Psychopaths are both cold and calculating, even if they have a bit of superficial charm.Psychopaths don't usually experience the same physiological responses to fear that constrain the behaviour of normal people, such as rapid heartbeat, sweating, dry mouth, trembling and muscle tension.

http://www.angelfire.com/amiga/aut/psychopath.html

 

[Estelle]

What is the main difference between psychopathy and Asperger's Syndrome?

While blunted affect may be present in some individuals with ASD, this manifestation is still remarkably different than in those with psychopathy. The most significant difference is the lack of remorse in psychopaths, along with their propensity to manipulate, blame others, and exploit situations and people.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/shadow-boxing/201402/aspergers-disorder-vs-psychopathy

 

[Tortoise]

Sums him up nicely Estelle.

 

[Interested Bystander]

What is the main difference between psychopathy and Asperger's Syndrome?

While blunted affect may be present in some individuals with ASD, this manifestation is still remarkably different than in those with psychopathy. The most significant difference is the lack of remorse in psychopaths, along with their propensity to manipulate, blame others, and exploit situations and people.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/shadow-boxing/201402/aspergers-disorder-vs-psychopathy

Thanks Estelle for the very interesting posts. If Henri is a psychopath how would we explain his crying when photo's of his victims were shown in court and he could not look at them? Was this for effect (quite possibly I imagine) or was he genuinely distressed and how would one know? If I remember rightly OP did a great job during his trial.

Also can you tell us how is it that nobody anywhere seems to have noted he has a history of psychopathic tendencies before he committed three (almost four) murders in one night? With OP we had clear indications that he couldn't stay out of trouble (fights etc). I am open to his being a psychopath and throwing in ASD to the mix stemmed from his being known, all his life it seems, to be a lovely boy but a loner and his sister commenting he was a "dick". Could drugs have caused such an enormous change in his personality, which seemingly only lasted for the one night? I understand psychopaths can be charming but the cracks tend to break open periodically (as in OP's case).

He had only been home for around a couple of weeks before committing these most awful crimes but I suspect those two weeks were torment for him. I think his parents were high achievers (at least his father was) and expected the same of the children. HvB giving up/being thrown off of his Physics course must have created enormous tensions in the household.

 

[Estelle]

Thanks Estelle for the very interesting posts. If Henri is a psychopath how would we explain his crying when photo's of his victims were shown in court and he could not look at them? Was this for effect (quite possibly I imagine) or was he genuinely distressed and how would one know? If I remember rightly OP did a great job during his trial.

Also can you tell us how is it that nobody anywhere seems to have noted he has a history of psychopathic tendencies before he committed three (almost four) murders in one night? With OP we had clear indications that he couldn't stay out of trouble (fights etc). I am open to his being a psychopath and throwing in ASD to the mix stemmed from his being known, all his life it seems, to be a lovely boy but a loner and his sister commenting he was a "dick". Could drugs have caused such an enormous change in his personality, which seemingly only lasted for the one night? I understand psychopaths can be charming but the cracks tend to break open periodically (as in OP's case).

He had only been home for around a couple of weeks before committing these most awful crimes but I suspect those two weeks were torment for him. I think his parents were high achievers (at least his father was) and expected the same of the children. HvB giving up/being thrown off of his Physics course must have created enormous tensions in the household.

BBM1

If Henri is a psychopath how would we explain his crying when photo's of his victims were shown in court and he could not look at them?

Psychopaths can read other people's emotions but don't have any themselves. That is why they are so good at manipulation. So they mimic what other people feel when it gives them some advantage. That was all an act. I doubt if his tears were watery ones!

BBM2

Also can you tell us how is it that nobody anywhere seems to have noted he has a history of psychopathic tendencies before he committed three (almost four) murders in one night?

Psychopathy cannot be diagnosed until a person is at least 18yo. HvB was 19yo when he committed these murders. Before that signs of a Conduct Disorder are usually observed in their behaviour. He was able to hide his true self by being a loner but also he was in another country so he could cover up his misdemeanors, had enough pocket money to pay for fines or bribe people to keep quiet. His parents were either unaware of his behaviour or covered up for him if they did know anything. However, did Rudi and he share a flat? If so, he may have told their parents about HvB's behaviour in the weeks before the murders which he did not want to worry the parents about until he saw them in person. Were Rudi and he both in Melbourne or just HvB in Perth? However, I think someone must have reported his conduct to the parents and that is why they were advised to get him to have a brain scan which can reveal psychopathy. Drugs might have been blamed or made things even worse in his brain. Family have said nothing was revealed but does anyone have a copy of the brain scan results?

I will continue this on the next page......

 

[Estelle]

Here’s a scan of a normal brain (top) and a Psychopath's brain (bottom). Notice that the normal scan shows much more activity (yellow and red) in the lower frontal lobe than Psychopath’s (mostly blue)..

The scans show reduced activity in an area towards the center of the brain called the orbital cortex thought to play a role in regulating our emotions and impulses as well as morality and aggression.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-a-psychopath-brain-looks-like-2015-7?r=US&IR=T