South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

[Interested Bystander]

Thanks JJ.

 

[Tortoise]

Oh come on, "Poirot", and get this thing up and running or I'm going back to my knitting!

beany hats? (that'll be XXL for Botha)

 

[Tortoise]

75 minute lunch break. hmm. And counting...

 

[Tortoise]

She has the same effect on me as my old physics teacher. Zzzz. I actually got a U grade in physics

 

[Tortoise]

I say no wonder her affidavits were labelled zz1 zz2 zz3 zz4

 

[Interested Bystander]

Does anyone know whether HvB will have been warned by his DT that the DNA results overwhelmingly indicate he is guilty. My legal knowledge is zilch but I know some of you are very knowledgeable.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I've a new theory for how he may have attacked Marli. Only because her DNA doesn't seem to be on him unlike the others. It's possible Marli didn't hear the attacks or Henri shouted to her to stay in her room because it was dangerous to come out, while he attacked first Rudi in bed, then ambushed Martin, then attacked Teresa as she started to run back to her room. Then Henri calls Marli to come and help Teresa because the attacker has gone, Marli is crouching as if tending to Teresa when Henri attacks Marli so she is not standing and her blood spatter misses Henri because he can attack her at arms length rather than up close. Maybe that is why she didn't die, because the impact was reduced at a further range.

That is most likely how it happened. HvB could control the situation like no stranger could.


The knife is the puzzling part for me. If HvBs blood is on the blade, it's the one he used to cut himself (or in his story, the assailant used to stab him). This leads me to think HvB was going to concoct a story that Rudi slaughtered the family but thought better of it while he waited on the doorstep and emergency were attending his sister. Too late, he'd placed Rudi's hand on the knife. The knife should have the intruder's touch dna.

If it's not the knife that HvB used on himself, then there's a missing knife. In the dishwasher? Back in it's block? In a neighbour's bin (long gone) when HvB went out for a walk after he attacked the family?

Is there a knife with Marli's blood on it? If it's the one with Rudi's touch dna?!! :scared:

I'm confused just thinking about these knives. Is the touch dna just from kitchen usage?! :crazy:

 

[Interested Bystander]

I say no wonder her affidavits were labelled zz1 zz2 zz3 zz4

I have just spat my lunch out after reading that. :laughing:

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Galloway references proficiency tests and asks what they imply?

Otto: First be competent then do proficiency test, different from lab proficiency in this instance because so many analysts take part in the process it is tested. We include 2 reference samples and 2 exhibit samples

Otto: Set of samples will undergo the exact same procedures and process as any other sample

The moment that you obtain the same result using the same samples as a number of other labs in world - u r proficient

Galloway: If an analyst doesn't comply with the standard operating procedures what happens?

The Admin oriented SOP's won't change the outcome of the result

Galloway: You said you received 216 samples? Otto: agrees it was 216

216 samples to analyse is far more than what we would usually do. The type of incident, obviously meant a lot of blood splatters

O: blood stain pattern analysis doesn't fall into our section- its in the victim identification sector

Blood stain pattern analyst may request that we analyze DNA of certain blood stains

In this instance I suspect there was lots of blood, samples collected were optimally collected we didnt struggle to obtain optimal DNA results

Galloway: is it strange to find DNA in a house were people stay, to find their DNA

O:nothing surprises me common cause that family was attacked with an axe 5 people were attacked and variations of
the same type of DNA being found with a family is normal and to be expected

 

[Tortoise]

Hehe Botha doesn't like that question. Unusual to not find DNA from unknown third party.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Objection by Defence!

 

[Tortoise]

Henri listening really intently now to shower DNA

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

O: No unknown DNA was found on any samples

All the DNA was a family members

O:if you use everyday detergents, handy andy, bleach its possible not to find your own DNA on items in home

G:would that argument apply to blood? O Blood is more resistant to your normal detergents

G: u found no surprising DNA on scene? what are odds of person entering scene causing crime and not leaving DNA

Botha objects to this question - she isn't a crime scene expert

O: Locard principle states that every touch leaves a trace- thats the first rule of forensics

O: Practical- I have drank this water all day - my touch, my fingers DNA is on there I leave a trace of my DNA

Galloway: so if every touch leaves a trace how can it happen that someone is in a place and doesn't leave any DNA

Botha objects again- pure speculation - obvious answer that touched things that weren't swabbed

Galloway - how can you be in a place and not leave a trace

O: if I wear a PPC suit, gloves, a balaclava - if I cover my body I come in and go out, I won't leave a trace

O: The crime scene might leave a trace on me but I may not leave a trace on the crime scene, its a 2 way trace

Galloway referes to blood from corner of the show floor

G: is that blood DNA from all 3 donors or any other types of DNA

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

O:because this is a shower, ref what explained with detergents.If you shower and use soap. This sample tested for possible blood.

O: can confirm it is from blood and I can exclude body cells because of a resistance to detergent or soap

O:I would go so far to say all my mixtures taken from exhibits that could be touched by hands, axe, knife,

I can't exclude possibility that the mixture is a combination of blood and skin cells

O:when extracting DNA focus would be white blood cells but extraction procedure for white blood cells and skin cells

 

[JudgeJudi]

Otto says there are two kinds of proficiency testing - aside form being competent, analysts much do a proficiency test at least once a year.

Upon request of defence, over 3000 pages of forensic evidence and SOPs handed to them by SAPS.

216 samples submitted, farm more than what they would usually do.
With this type of incident, there were obviously many blood stains
We didn't struggle to get DNA. On the scene I suspect there must have been lost of blood. Samples were optimally collected, we didn't struggle to get optimal DNA, says Otto.

Common cause that five people were attacked with axe in their own home. None of my DNA results were surprising.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...spotlight-as-van-breda-trial-resumes-20170807

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Henri listening really intently now to shower DNA

He looks mesmerized!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Blood on bottom of axe handle: could only identify Henri's blood, but other DNA is family members, but not unknown DNA

She didn't find any unknown DNA.

Blood is more resistant to average detergent.

Galloway asks what are the odds of person entering and not leaving DNA? Botha objects.

She explains the Locard principle: Every touch leaves a trace. That is a first law of forensics, Otto says

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...spotlight-as-van-breda-trial-resumes-20170807

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

O: is the same procedure. I cannot confirm that that was caused by blood alone I must consider it could be blood and skin cells

O: on a touch DNA we don't do any preliminary analysis we extract DNA immediately

O: swab marked laundry door no DNA

Galloway: how is it possible that positive test for blood but then no DNA

O:could have been false positive reaction - but my view is because its on laundry door close to kitchen could be blood from meat

O: if positive for blood and we are unable to extract DNA from it its possible that it is animal blood

We are not able to pick up animal DNA it is there, but we only pick up Human DNA

G: Colonel Stewart testified regarding hair analysis that were returned for DNA analysis, re you aware of DNA analysis?

O: there was DNA analysis done on hair but we didn't obtain enough DNA to compile a report

Court will adjourn till 10am tomorrow

 

[JudgeJudi]

If I wear full PPE - gloves, balaclava, - if I cover my body and I come in and leave, I wont leave a trace. The crime scene may leave a trace on me, but I wont leave a trace.

Shower floor blood - Otto says because its a shower, the use of soap and detergents is expected. You would use soap and shower gel. Likely the DNA was blood, as it is more resistant to normal detergents.

Laundry door 'blood' was tested, but found to have not been blood.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...spotlight-as-van-breda-trial-resumes-20170807

 

[JudgeJudi]

Court will adjourn until 10am tomorrow!

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...spotlight-as-van-breda-trial-resumes-20170807