Apparently it did come out. See posts 1156 and 1157 above.
South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3
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Apparently it did come out. See posts 1156 and 1157 above.
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Maybe Joubert and Botha needed a cooling off period.
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HvB was being TOO clever, tmar. He didn't help not one of his family so he wouldn't contaminate their bodies with his DNA, and wants the court, the doctors and the public to believe he was unconscious for nearly 3 hrs!
Very little is paying off for him though, Joubert is unravelling this horrific crime as best he can. I wonder if HvB is astonished by how close to the truth Joubert is.
Maybe Joubert and Botha needed a cooling off period.
Case previously adjourned due to Joubert's ongoing illness.
Hope he hadn't returned too early, not fully recovered.
Hope immense stress on stand, knowing his evidence could nail HVB, has not played havoc with his immune system, causing a relapse.
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Prime, you are right. Joubert has dealt with Botha in the best way possible. He quietly answered the questions, agreed when there could be a possible divergence of opinion and didn't really create a great deal of provocation so that Botha's bully boy tactics were thwarted. However, towards the end of yesterday morning's evidence I got the distinct impression that Joubert had had his "fill" of Botha.
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I've got a suggestion for why Rudi was moved, but I'll start with my theory for why Marli's blood was not on the axe.
I believe he had an original plan that changed several times because he panicked.
His original plan was that he would be in the loo totally oblivious to the attack, in there for a long time playing a loud fighting game or music on his phone with his earphones in, the intruder also oblivious to him, as he had the door shut. He would have the probability of Rudi shouting and bringing the parents out of their bedroom. He would discover the scene. He would have the intruder bringing his own axe and leaving with it, because it was an intentional family murder, not a robbery, which means Henri would have to thoroughly clean the axe and put it back in the pantry.
I think what then happened was that after the attacks he cleaned the axe head, probably in the kitchen, but then a few problems occurred to him - what if he had left behind minute invisible traces in the crevices or in the wood handle - an intruder would not clean the axe and put it back in the pantry before leaving - perhaps more importantly - how could he remove the blood on his shorts and socks?- he wouldn't leave the estate to dispose of them in case he was seen, and a washed and bleached pair of shorts and socks would also be a give away.
So he devised a new plan, which would mean loading up the axe with blood again, and having the intruder leave the axe behind. Now he has to create a robbery scene too because the intruder didn't bring his own weapon, so it was an ad hoc attack on everyone who got in the intruder's way. He put the study light on and left a few drawers opened.
The blood on his clothing also created a few changes of plan. He would now have the bathroom door slightly open and Rudi being struck in bed but putting up a fight and struggling with the intruder in the bedroom closer to the bathroom, getting spatter on Henri.
The intruder would now see Henri with the open door and Henri would also now be attacked, but not with the axe (he couldn't face axing himself) so he took a kitchen knife back upstairs with him to cut himself in the bedroom.
Back upstairs he didn't want to disturb the blood scene on the wood floor where Teresa and Marli were lying because that would leave obvious patterns, and it would be easier to smear Rudi's blood on the axe from the bed and carpet, since he was moving Rudi anyway. He had clean hands from washing the axe and he dragged (dead) Rudi to the floor by his feet or lower legs, gravity causing the blood to pool on the floor in the same way that Teresa's blood flowed down the stairs when the EMS personnel moved her, he cut himself then went to stage the axe on the stairs, Rudi's blood got on the knife during this and left a smear print on the bottom corner of Henri's bed duvet so he pulled off the duvet to put it in more blood on the floor and try to confuse the scene.
I would say Henri backed out of telling this new version at the last minute, after moving Rudi. He would have to explain how he fought with the attacker without falling over Rudi who was already on the floor in that part of the room. At the last minute he decided to go with Rudi inexplicably moved there on his own after Henri left the room.
What Joubert hasn't picked up on (when he talks about staging) is that very little of Rudi's blood would have been left on the axe after it was swung around so much during the attacks on Martin, Teresa and Marli, and yet only Rudi's blood is on the hole in the stair wall.
I think Rudi's blood on the knife, which transferred to Henri's duvet while it was still on the bed, is a huge problem for the defence. On his version, Henri could have dropped the knife on the floor (after he pulled it out of his side) and Rudi (according to the defence still being alive) could have moved across the floor and bled onto the knife, but for a smear pattern to be created on the duvet on Henri's bed would mean having Rudi lift the knife off the floor and smearing it there, (leaving a blood-stained hand grip on the knife handle which was not there) or pulling the duvet down on top of the bloody knife, but then the knife would have been under the duvet on the floor and not moved to be under Rudi's bed. We see now why the defence has been trying to pin the movement of the knife on the police, unsuccessfully, and why the defence had their blood spatter expert Steyl conduct experiments for the smear pattern on the duvet - not being made by the blade of the knife but by Rudi's blood stained arm being pressed against a fold in the fabric, in the exact shape and size of the knife blade. Desperate times calls for desperate measures, obviously!
I'm really pleased that Joubert stuck with his firmly held opinion that Rudi was not alive and was dragged across the floor.
I believe he had an original plan that changed several times because he panicked.
His original plan was that he would be in the loo totally oblivious to the attack, in there for a long time playing a loud fighting game or music on his phone with his earphones in, the intruder also oblivious to him, as he had the door shut. He would have the probability of Rudi shouting and bringing the parents out of their bedroom. He would discover the scene. He would have the intruder bringing his own axe and leaving with it, because it was an intentional family murder, not a robbery, which means Henri would have to thoroughly clean the axe and put it back in the pantry.
I think what then happened was that after the attacks he cleaned the axe head, probably in the kitchen, but then a few problems occurred to him - what if he had left behind minute invisible traces in the crevices or in the wood handle - an intruder would not clean the axe and put it back in the pantry before leaving - perhaps more importantly - how could he remove the blood on his shorts and socks?- he wouldn't leave the estate to dispose of them in case he was seen, and a washed and bleached pair of shorts and socks would also be a give away.
So he devised a new plan, which would mean loading up the axe with blood again, and having the intruder leave the axe behind. Now he has to create a robbery scene too because the intruder didn't bring his own weapon, so it was an ad hoc attack on everyone who got in the intruder's way. He put the study light on and left a few drawers opened.
The blood on his clothing also created a few changes of plan. He would now have the bathroom door slightly open and Rudi being struck in bed but putting up a fight and struggling with the intruder in the bedroom closer to the bathroom, getting spatter on Henri.
The intruder would now see Henri with the open door and Henri would also now be attacked, but not with the axe (he couldn't face axing himself) so he took a kitchen knife back upstairs with him to cut himself in the bedroom.
Back upstairs he didn't want to disturb the blood scene on the wood floor where Teresa and Marli were lying because that would leave obvious patterns, and it would be easier to smear Rudi's blood on the axe from the bed and carpet, since he was moving Rudi anyway. He had clean hands from washing the axe and he dragged (dead) Rudi to the floor by his feet or lower legs, gravity causing the blood to pool on the floor in the same way that Teresa's blood flowed down the stairs when the EMS personnel moved her, he cut himself then went to stage the axe on the stairs, Rudi's blood got on the knife during this and left a smear print on the bottom corner of Henri's bed duvet so he pulled off the duvet to put it in more blood on the floor and try to confuse the scene.
I would say Henri backed out of telling this new version at the last minute, after moving Rudi. He would have to explain how he fought with the attacker without falling over Rudi who was already on the floor in that part of the room. At the last minute he decided to go with Rudi inexplicably moved there on his own after Henri left the room.
What Joubert hasn't picked up on (when he talks about staging) is that very little of Rudi's blood would have been left on the axe after it was swung around so much during the attacks on Martin, Teresa and Marli, and yet only Rudi's blood is on the hole in the stair wall.
I think Rudi's blood on the knife, which transferred to Henri's duvet while it was still on the bed, is a huge problem for the defence. On his version, Henri could have dropped the knife on the floor (after he pulled it out of his side) and Rudi (according to the defence still being alive) could have moved across the floor and bled onto the knife, but for a smear pattern to be created on the duvet on Henri's bed would mean having Rudi lift the knife off the floor and smearing it there, (leaving a blood-stained hand grip on the knife handle which was not there) or pulling the duvet down on top of the bloody knife, but then the knife would have been under the duvet on the floor and not moved to be under Rudi's bed. We see now why the defence has been trying to pin the movement of the knife on the police, unsuccessfully, and why the defence had their blood spatter expert Steyl conduct experiments for the smear pattern on the duvet - not being made by the blade of the knife but by Rudi's blood stained arm being pressed against a fold in the fabric, in the exact shape and size of the knife blade. Desperate times calls for desperate measures, obviously!
I'm really pleased that Joubert stuck with his firmly held opinion that Rudi was not alive and was dragged across the floor.
I dont believe his plan changed because he panicked at all. The fact that he chose such a brutal way of killing his family, and thought that he could get away with it, suggests to me that hes cold-blooded and calculating in the extreme. His behaviour after the murders and his demeanour in court reflect this. One year later hed moved on, had a girlfriend and was off to cooking school. Axe murders havent been common for over a hundred years and nearly all of them have been committed by people unrelated to the victims. An axe is a powerful tool and its efficacy relies heavily on the strength and determination of the person wielding the handle. I too believe this crime was personal and premeditated.
When he rang for an ambulance the operator thought it was a prank call due to his cool and calm demeanour. She said that someone calling in about a home invasion or assault was usually frantic, shouting or screaming. This was far worse - 3 nearly 4 murders ... and he was cool and calm.
During the many conferences he had with his legal team, he would have been asked many questions. This would account for the variations as he changed his original version to accommodate what his lawyers were asking, not because he had panicked at the time.
I can tell you from personal experience, to be part of a shocking event is more traumatic than you could ever imagine. I was involved in a tragedy where 83 people died, and while I was seriously injured, I was fortunate enough to ultimately heal mentally and physically, but it took years. I was in such a state of shock that I couldn't tell the hospital my own telephone number. The nightmares had me screaming loud enough to wake my neighbours, and this lasted more than a year. 40 years later and I still remember exactly what happened as if it was yesterday.
[video=youtube;sFGKs62Wz5Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFGKs62Wz5Y[/video]
When he rang for an ambulance the operator thought it was a prank call due to his cool and calm demeanour. She said that someone calling in about a home invasion or assault was usually frantic, shouting or screaming. This was far worse - 3 nearly 4 murders ... and he was cool and calm.
During the many conferences he had with his legal team, he would have been asked many questions. This would account for the variations as he changed his original version to accommodate what his lawyers were asking, not because he had panicked at the time.
I can tell you from personal experience, to be part of a shocking event is more traumatic than you could ever imagine. I was involved in a tragedy where 83 people died, and while I was seriously injured, I was fortunate enough to ultimately heal mentally and physically, but it took years. I was in such a state of shock that I couldn't tell the hospital my own telephone number. The nightmares had me screaming loud enough to wake my neighbours, and this lasted more than a year. 40 years later and I still remember exactly what happened as if it was yesterday.
[video=youtube;sFGKs62Wz5Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFGKs62Wz5Y[/video]
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What an awful experience for you JJ.
I agree with you entirely that he didn't display any signs of being in a panic. I suppose a better description for what I was trying to say might have been he saw faults with his plan and worked around that. I think he is not touched at all by what he did, but at the same time concerned only about himself and getting away with it.
He has no conscience, that much is clear to me. I can't imagine being inside that dark void of deadness inside him, perhaps he even felt something on the opposite end of the scale like pleasure or relief? But still quite clear in his thinking at all times - working through problems as if it was a mathematical equation he had to solve.
I do firmly believe that his plan changed, otherwise he would never have cleaned the axe and in my opinion that's the only thing that makes sense of only Rudi's blood being on the axe in sufficient quantity to drip down the stair wall after it had been swung around and used on three other family members. I think it's just plain luck for him that his team are now running with that meaning there was a second axe and second attacker. He made zero mention of a second person in his first statement, and in fact he specifically refers over and again to one person which is a double confirmation of that. He also made zero mention of hearing Rudi make noises or moving on his bed - he's put that in now and it's so obvious it is to fit with what his experts have come up with. I felt as much disdain for Roux and his team.
Further to what I wrote last night I have realised now why he went back on his plan to have Rudi fighting on the floor near the bathroom to explain the blood spatter on him. It's because Martin was leaning over the bed and Rudi was very obviously incapacitated on the bed at that time.
Regardless, I think there is way too much evidence stacked up against him now. His team might have poked pockets of doubt here and there, but on the whole I think the evidence against him is overwhelming.
I agree with you entirely that he didn't display any signs of being in a panic. I suppose a better description for what I was trying to say might have been he saw faults with his plan and worked around that. I think he is not touched at all by what he did, but at the same time concerned only about himself and getting away with it.
He has no conscience, that much is clear to me. I can't imagine being inside that dark void of deadness inside him, perhaps he even felt something on the opposite end of the scale like pleasure or relief? But still quite clear in his thinking at all times - working through problems as if it was a mathematical equation he had to solve.
I do firmly believe that his plan changed, otherwise he would never have cleaned the axe and in my opinion that's the only thing that makes sense of only Rudi's blood being on the axe in sufficient quantity to drip down the stair wall after it had been swung around and used on three other family members. I think it's just plain luck for him that his team are now running with that meaning there was a second axe and second attacker. He made zero mention of a second person in his first statement, and in fact he specifically refers over and again to one person which is a double confirmation of that. He also made zero mention of hearing Rudi make noises or moving on his bed - he's put that in now and it's so obvious it is to fit with what his experts have come up with. I felt as much disdain for Roux and his team.
Further to what I wrote last night I have realised now why he went back on his plan to have Rudi fighting on the floor near the bathroom to explain the blood spatter on him. It's because Martin was leaning over the bed and Rudi was very obviously incapacitated on the bed at that time.
Regardless, I think there is way too much evidence stacked up against him now. His team might have poked pockets of doubt here and there, but on the whole I think the evidence against him is overwhelming.
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And I also believe that after his shower he left the bedroom to go and make his calls and noticed Marli moving. When his "girlfriend" didn't answer his messages he decided to wait, for as long as he possibly could before the domestic worker would arrive, for Marli to die.
I think he'd completed his staging by the time he made those first calls, couldn't get blood on himself again to finish Marli off, and then sat smoking and dreaming up an excuse for the next three hours delay. Peeing on his shorts to back up his story of being unconscious. That was deliberate, no doubt about it, just like the feces he left in the loo to explain his absence from the bedroom.
He might have been better off if he'd said he went round to check on each of his family members, but he was more concerned that the blood on him would point to involvement. He overlooked how natural it would be for a loving son and brother to desperately check his family for signs they might still be alive, beyond an inspection from halfway down the stairs. And he never mentioned to the ambulance dispatcher that Rudi might still be alive, he only mentioned Marli. If Rudi had been making noises he would have mentioned him too.
I think he'd completed his staging by the time he made those first calls, couldn't get blood on himself again to finish Marli off, and then sat smoking and dreaming up an excuse for the next three hours delay. Peeing on his shorts to back up his story of being unconscious. That was deliberate, no doubt about it, just like the feces he left in the loo to explain his absence from the bedroom.
He might have been better off if he'd said he went round to check on each of his family members, but he was more concerned that the blood on him would point to involvement. He overlooked how natural it would be for a loving son and brother to desperately check his family for signs they might still be alive, beyond an inspection from halfway down the stairs. And he never mentioned to the ambulance dispatcher that Rudi might still be alive, he only mentioned Marli. If Rudi had been making noises he would have mentioned him too.
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JJ, so sorry to hear of your terrible experience. That was just awful.
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The problems with his initial statement are so obvious now.
And Botha fighting tooth and nail to have that not admitted into evidence only highlights how damning those differences are. It would have looked far better for Henri if he'd confidently said he could explain the differences and wasn't worried about them.
He said he heard the attack on Teresa and then came out of the bathroom.
He said Rudi was just lying on the bed - mentioned no movement or noises.
One attacker throughout.
And now we know the duvet must have been put on the floor after Rudi shed blood there, and on the knife. Even if Rudi had pulled the duvet down, Joubert seemed to indicate it was rolled up before it was put on the floor, not just pulled down.
And Botha fighting tooth and nail to have that not admitted into evidence only highlights how damning those differences are. It would have looked far better for Henri if he'd confidently said he could explain the differences and wasn't worried about them.
He said he heard the attack on Teresa and then came out of the bathroom.
He said Rudi was just lying on the bed - mentioned no movement or noises.
One attacker throughout.
And now we know the duvet must have been put on the floor after Rudi shed blood there, and on the knife. Even if Rudi had pulled the duvet down, Joubert seemed to indicate it was rolled up before it was put on the floor, not just pulled down.
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Tracey Stewart's (Traceyams on Twitter) report for Thursday, 14th September 2017
http://www.capetownetc.com/news/van-breda-defence-tests-evidence/
Van Breda Defence tests blood spatter experts evidence
Today, Henri Van Bredas defense attorney Advocate Botha continued to cross-examine and test the reports and conclusions made by the States final witness, blood spatter expert Captain Joubert, who analysed the many blood stain patterns from the triple murder scene.
Botha skillfully worked through the conclusions Captain Joubert had made in his analysis of the blood patterns on the crime scene and picked apart each and every one. A recurring theme is that there are far too many unknown variables to actually rule out possibilities which could favor the Defences version of the events, although in many occasions two possibilities appear equally possible. ..
http://www.capetownetc.com/news/van-breda-defence-tests-evidence/
Van Breda Defence tests blood spatter experts evidence
Today, Henri Van Bredas defense attorney Advocate Botha continued to cross-examine and test the reports and conclusions made by the States final witness, blood spatter expert Captain Joubert, who analysed the many blood stain patterns from the triple murder scene.
Botha skillfully worked through the conclusions Captain Joubert had made in his analysis of the blood patterns on the crime scene and picked apart each and every one. A recurring theme is that there are far too many unknown variables to actually rule out possibilities which could favor the Defences version of the events, although in many occasions two possibilities appear equally possible. ..
RSBM
Rather than changing his plan, I think he was simply reacting to the scene he was confronted with. He obviously wanted to murder the family, and from what we suspect, the motive had something to do with Martin or Rudi.
As Ive mentioned before, his first statement will be the one that is closest to the truth. It was given that morning without the benefit of advice from anyone. That statement placed him in the toilet with the door closed. Ive always believed that an attacker was an integral part of his premeditation as was the use of an axe. He didnt have access to a gun, and if he sought to buy one illegally, he faced a huge risk of blackmail from the seller once the crime had been committed, especially as the seller would have been a criminal. I also think it was always his plan to murder the family while they were sleeping and that Rudi would be the first victim.
I agree that the axe head was probably washed but I think its more probable that it was washed in the shower. Joubert said there were mixture blood samples in the shower indicating that blood was coming from an object. Henri didnt need to step into the shower to do this - he simply needed to turn on the shower and hold the head under the water. The axe must have had a lot of blood on it which would drip everywhere if he took it downstairs to the kitchen.
As far as the socks are concerned, Joubert said that 17 blood samples were found on the top, sides and rear - 9 from Rudi (spatter and impact), 1 from Martin, 1 from Teresa and 2 from Henri with 4 being unidentified. These stains showed that they were in close proximity to blood sources from Teresa and Rudi, and yet there were none on the soles. Henri said he never touched the bodies or that he was close to the victims when the attacks occurred. This suggests to me that he may have removed the socks after the murders and tip-toed downstairs on the toes of his dainty little size 12 feet. After he cleaned up the scene, he put the socks back on and went outside, and that would account for the dirt on the soles.
Rather than changing his plan, I think he was simply reacting to the scene he was confronted with. He obviously wanted to murder the family, and from what we suspect, the motive had something to do with Martin or Rudi.
As Ive mentioned before, his first statement will be the one that is closest to the truth. It was given that morning without the benefit of advice from anyone. That statement placed him in the toilet with the door closed. Ive always believed that an attacker was an integral part of his premeditation as was the use of an axe. He didnt have access to a gun, and if he sought to buy one illegally, he faced a huge risk of blackmail from the seller once the crime had been committed, especially as the seller would have been a criminal. I also think it was always his plan to murder the family while they were sleeping and that Rudi would be the first victim.
I agree that the axe head was probably washed but I think its more probable that it was washed in the shower. Joubert said there were mixture blood samples in the shower indicating that blood was coming from an object. Henri didnt need to step into the shower to do this - he simply needed to turn on the shower and hold the head under the water. The axe must have had a lot of blood on it which would drip everywhere if he took it downstairs to the kitchen.
As far as the socks are concerned, Joubert said that 17 blood samples were found on the top, sides and rear - 9 from Rudi (spatter and impact), 1 from Martin, 1 from Teresa and 2 from Henri with 4 being unidentified. These stains showed that they were in close proximity to blood sources from Teresa and Rudi, and yet there were none on the soles. Henri said he never touched the bodies or that he was close to the victims when the attacks occurred. This suggests to me that he may have removed the socks after the murders and tip-toed downstairs on the toes of his dainty little size 12 feet. After he cleaned up the scene, he put the socks back on and went outside, and that would account for the dirt on the soles.
A Facebook page related to Trinity College where Rudi was completing his Masters in engineering described him as "highly popular" and "a quiet leader" who had helped those younger than himself.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/CkGOnWoPvEQ/VMkjmFbs1UI/AAAAAAAABgo/JrnaYz5DFtY/s1600/Rudi%2Bvan%2Bberda.jpg
Always smiling, always looked happy, had lots of friends and obviously enjoyed life. What an absolute waste.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/CkGOnWoPvEQ/VMkjmFbs1UI/AAAAAAAABgo/JrnaYz5DFtY/s1600/Rudi%2Bvan%2Bberda.jpg
Always smiling, always looked happy, had lots of friends and obviously enjoyed life. What an absolute waste.
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JJ I get a 404 with your above link.
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So sorry that this was part of your history JJ, it must have been an awful and painful experience, so glad you're here! This does give you an insight into the thought processes while in a traumatic state and the after effects.
There is much that HvB has to answer for, it's awful that his defence have helped him fill in the blanks with his original statement. I can imagine the discussion, 'Rudi was found off the bed?', 'I remember now, he was alive for most of the time', 'how do you know?', 'I heard him gurgling and spluttering for ages!', 'oh good, that makes sense, lets hope the court buys it'. :facepalm:
That was weird IB. I just got a 404 too but now the pic is back. Maybe one of the mods fixed it.
RSBM
All I can say Prime is that barristers who specialise in acting for murderers and the very worst criminals very frequently have a reputation that is held in very low regard by other barristers. When barristers chambers become available in Sydney, many floors won't even contemplate applications from those who work in the criminal jurisdiction. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't admit this, but I'm stating it as 100% fact.
I wonder why this would be
All I can say Prime is that barristers who specialise in acting for murderers and the very worst criminals very frequently have a reputation that is held in very low regard by other barristers. When barristers chambers become available in Sydney, many floors won't even contemplate applications from those who work in the criminal jurisdiction. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't admit this, but I'm stating it as 100% fact.
I wonder why this would be
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