South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #3

[Tortoise]

This is infuriating. Botha says if Henri was moving Rudi he would have to have blood stained socks underneath. There is no thinking outside the box - he could have taken his socks off by that stage.

Same as Reeva's back injury which they argued had to have been caused by the magazine rack. Nothing suggested the back injury must have been caused inside the toilet cubicle.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: on ur scenario that he had been dead and that he was moved and his head pushed against the wall that could only have been done by my client as he was the only person around J: correct

B: He would have had to lift him from his waist (middle area)

B: in order to do that he would have had to stand with his sock clad feet right in this pool of blood

I will argue that it would have been impossible for someone 2 move this body and push his head into wall without standing in blood

B: u did not find any blood stains that could have been created by blood stained foot? J correct

B: the blood stained socks of my client had stains on top?

B: its clear from the socks that all the stains you identified were the ones u circled with a marker and underneath socks, no blood

J: We dont know the sequence u could have immediately created B21 & B22 (wall stains) before creating the massive pool

B: If the stains on the wall first occurred he was then dead and thereafter he was placed in final position how did Henri

B: move him at that stage? J: there was blood stains on Rudi's lower legs which could indicate dragging him by his feet we see the drag positions in the movement of the arms

B: Steyl said if Rudi was dragged around B20 he would have had a very clear drag pattern

J: theres alot of possibilities as there is a lot of movement in that particular pool

J: In the last third you can clearly see the drag marks in the stain, u cant see the first 2 thirds

B: but where did the person stand when he was handling?

J: we dont know if there was blood there at that stage

B: u said the stains on wall may have been created first and thereafter he was moved and left to bleed out then dragged to final

B: I said where are the drag marks and u said I cant account for drag marks in the first 2 thirds

(HvB could stand with legs very far apart, he's quite tall)

 

[Interested Bystander]

It seems that Botha is working on the assumption that the blood spatter will clear Henri. Is he really hoping to get HvB off a murder charge on blood spatter only?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: And I then asked how could they have dragged him without standing in that pool of blood, and we know my clients socks were not covered in blood at the bottom? J: correct, there were only smear marks on Rudi's body

J: at the bottom axe of the handle we only found Henri's blood not Rudi's blood? J yes correct (?)

B: when u wrote this report did u discuss whether rudi was immediately dead as result of his injuries? J: no I did not

J: in the info I had there was no mention of time period of death after sustaining injury

B: but she would have said to u that there was blood in his stomach which requires active swallowing

B: she would also have said its possible that Rudi could have been alive for a few hours

B: u said that the attacker displayed alot of anger toward rudi on what basis?

J: my experience as a crime scene analyst, it is just an opinion have made its not based on anything I am not a behaviour analyst

B: Moving on to blood spatter on neighbouring property we dealt with those two that it could be from either possibility

Botha: U indicated that attack indicates it was a surprise attack, Martin didnt have time to react

B: u now know what my clients plea is, that the attacker came into the room and crossed over the bed to the attacker

B: so surprise is based on the fact that there were no defence wounds


(why isn't there bloody footprints/bootprints made by the intruder leaving Rudi's room?)

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hahaha Mr Botha, you're backing yourself into a corner!

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: I put it to u that Dr Anthony said Martinc injuries are consistent with that described by my clients plea

B: the position of Teresa when she was attacked. U said she was attacked in close proximity to the entrance door of boys' room

Botha: turn to exhibit where u deal with my clients statement taken down by sergeant malan

B: my client states he was in vicinity of the bottom part of bed when brother and father were attacked

B: u have said that would be consistent with the spatter on his sleeping shorts and socks- J: in close proximity

That would be anywhere between 1.5 and 2m?

B: with my clients statement? J: correct

B: my clients thumb print was found on blade of knife in direction of handle, he removed knife from himself and that would
be consistent with my clients version? J: it's possible

B: photo of henris injuries. We see flow patterns

J: I see flow patterns not sure it's from bleeding or medical intervention

J: Henri was in a sitting position when first responders arrived

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: there are several factors that may have influenced those flow patterns j agrees

B: two transfer patterns that were on the floor of the bathroom

B: these 2 were identified as possible shoe prints? J: correct

B: the shoe print expert said that he was not in position to state either mark was a shoe print he simply didn't know cause
u deal with this and say at no stage did Henri return to the bathroom to transfer these with object or his feet

B: again there was no blood stain underneath his socks? J: correct

J: I wasn't aware about socks when I made statement I thought it was drop

B: at December 2015 were u aware that there were no stains under his socks? J yes

B: then why did u include this as a possibility? J: it could have been object on shoe but I now exclude that as possibility

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: at the entrance shoe print mark, u probably aware that capt VDW said consistent with shoes worn by Const Mathu

B: fairly distinctive wavy pattern- then go to transfer pattern on bathroom floor

B: mr steyl found the markings on the bathroom floor steyn are similar to the wavy pattern made by constable Mathu

J: I am not a shoe print expert

B: we know mathu stepped into blood so can we exclude the possibility of mathu leaving these stains

J: I would expect repetition but we only see the one pattern

J: I don't know anything to exclude that possibility

B: simply not enough detail in this blood stain to draw any conclusions as to the cause

B: but we can conclude those stains were not necessarily made by my client

we adjourn for lunch Botha has indicted that he shouldn't need more than 30 minutes after lunch

 

[bleuboy]

How long is lunch. Xx

 

[Tortoise]

Thank you Prime for doing the tweets.

I'm going to have to go out and get some fresh air. I get soooo frustrated with these SA trials!

 

[PrimeSuspect]

How long is lunch. Xx

about an 1 hr - 1 1/2

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Thank you Prime for doing the tweets.

I'm going to have to go out and get some fresh air. I get soooo frustrated with these SA trials!

I feel the same, I just logged off after my last post and went for a walk. Botha is trying to have Joubert agree with all his statements, he promises only 30 minutes more!

Now Botha pretending everything hangs on the socks?
With the lights on, HvB could see perfectly where to place his feet while moving Rudi with socks or without, if he removed them as you've suggested, he had all the time in the world!

No intruders left prints in the blood, HvB's dog who slept in his bedroom left no prints in the blood, HvB left no prints in the blood!
Botha's persistence with this line of questioning points more to HvB's guilt, makes one think about how HE did it, not an intruder.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Galloway will surely have something to say when Botha finishes. I hope she on the ball.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

[video=youtube;4ZI1NbOH2K4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZI1NbOH2K4[/video]

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: u will recall from my clients plea explanation he said he was on the toilet when he heard the sound, he pulled up his pants etc

B: corroboration that Henri didnt bother with niceties like wiping himself or flushing the toilet? J: correct

B: his version is that he wasnt in the vicinity of his mother and Marli's attack

B: he dealt with how he moved the knife out of his left side and that his thumb print was on the blade where he handled knife

B: we also know he said there was more than one other person in that house (do we KNOW?)

B: now ask for your comments with reference to the Locard principle - Locard" every touch leaves trace" fairly well known principle

B: we see evidence of the Locard Principle, Rudi's blood on the axe clearly cause he was assaulted with axe

B: we know that Martin's blood was found on the metal part of the axe

B: we know that Teresa's blood was found on the axe

B: we know that Henri's blood was found on the axe we know that he handled the axe

B: we also know Marli's touch DNA was found on the axe

J: regards touch DNA I am not an expert but it could have been microscopic blood as far as I know same samples


(Why doesn't Galloway object, we don't KNOW someone else was in the house!!)

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: With respect what do u want the court to make of the evidence of the touch dna? He took it at place, no evidence of blood

B: whether there is microscopic blood of marli or touch DNA on the handle of axe

B: what happened to the locard principle in respect of the blade of the axe, state is saying this is the weapon that was used to attack Marli, you agreed that it should have been there given that she was hit 8 times

B: Applying Locard principle why wasnt her DNA on the axe given that axe apparently penetrated her body on 8 places

J: I cant explain B: so possible that Marli was assaulted with a different axe J: possible

B: when my client came to the bottom of the property he saw the rear door was open

B: if they followed the path down to the rear gate it could also explain the two drops on the wall

J:yes its possible

B: we know my client handled the axe and Henri's blood was on the axe

B: its clear when the axe impacted the wall the blood on the blade was still in liquid form as blood was going down the wall

b: we know thereafter the axe ended on the middle landing and didnt appear to have been disturbed

B:would accused have had opportunity to wash himself or the axe after the attack on Marli

B: if he washed himself then that must have happened within minutes or seconds after the last attack and after he stabbed himself on the states version because we know that the blood congealed on the axe

B: that scenario of him washing himself in that period of time makes that improbable

B: in fact it still doesnt consider the time he was moving his brother around, not stepping in blood

B: there would not have been enough time for henri to clean himself and move the body and not step in blood J accepts

B: these photos show the inside of Henri's room taken at about 1pm on 28 January 2015, u were there on that day

J: the scene did not look like this, as far as I know

B: according to the meta data these photos were taken by yourself or Captain Brown.

J: that is incorrect there was no movement of this bed when I processed the scene

B: u will see clearly on Henri's bed, duvets sheets pillows, covers dog bed all piled on top of one another

J: It wasnt like this on the 28 January

B: I will provide my colleage with meta data of this photograph it was taken at 1ish on 28 January

B: the two duvets were collected by Hitchcock on 16 Feb 2015

B: were u on the scene when Sgt Hitchcock collected those exhibits? J: I dont think so

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: we found an entry in your diary that u were there on 16 Feb but it didnt indicate you had anything to do with that collection

B: Hitchcock then placed them in evidence bags and u received them on 26 February

B:in between the time u were at the scene and when u received them u had nothing to do with the duvets J-No

B:upon arrival at the lab u examined them and indicated that both duvets,has signs they were exposed to multiple blood shed events

B: u examined them on basis that 138 emanated from the floor and 139 emanated from Rudi's bed? J correct

B: Go to ExA photos taken by Hitchcock before that, see the photo we assume H took it on 16 Feb when he went to collect duvets

B: indicates duvet taken from bed where older male was found and then it shows a photo of the duvet marked 138

B:it appears to be back on the bed but we can see the sheet and mattress cover has been removed clearly thats not its original

B: it appears from these photos either u or H had the 2 duvets switched around, he says 138 was on Rudi's bed, u examined and drew conclusions the other way around

B: go to the notes made by H

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B reads from H notes"dark grey duvet collected from bed where older male decease found-138

B:"dark grey collected from floor where male was found" 139

B: item 142 grey duvet from bed where older male found and it is referenced as exhibit 138

B: then the states list, item 143 grey duvet found on the floor next to Rudi is labelled exhibit 139

B: so we wont know how to deal with this but obviously duvets were mixed up

J: asks B to look at J's photo album

J: photo 92,93 it shows the duvet on the floor

J is showing a number of photographs presumably to show he had the right duvets irrespective of numbering

J: photo I took of the exhibit when it was in the lab and compare it to the stain visible in the photo from the scene

and the photo of the forensic bag

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

J: so I am sure that exhibit 138 was collected from the floor

B: how did u determine that the duvet u were examining was collected from the floor? Did u ask h? J no I didnt

B: u will agree that on the photo of the bag there is no reference as to where H collected it so we must go to his notes or album

B: what u r showing us on this photo does appear to have some similarity to what we see in the photo in the lab

B: but u are now comparing a spread out duvet with a number of stains to one which is bundled up and stains partially visible

B: we actually did take time to do the same, but there are not many photos in the spread out position of exhibit 139

 

[PrimeSuspect]

:needdrink: