South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #4

[Estelle]

Holy cr*p - what is Botha up to. Has he been reading these pages? Are we now going to hear that this behaviour can happen when the culprit has some sort of psychological problem.

The problem is that HvB has not been diagnosed with any psychological symptoms, but it has been reported that he has been seeing a Psychologist since the murders. One would have thought that this Psychologist would have given evidence.

However, my prediction is that it is another Psychologist whom Botha knows will give him the answers he needs.

Did Botha give you the impression that HvB has already been interviewed by this Psychologist and they are just waiting for her answers now?

In court, HvB said he couldn’t bring himself to help his family.

“If I had been thinking clearly I probably would have done these things. If I hadn’t been so scared.”

There are three possible responses to trauma - Fight, Flee or Freeze.

My prediction is that the Psychologist will talk about the Freeze response such as HvB was frozen in fear to explain HvB's inaction.

 

[Fluffykins]

https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc

Desai: why then did you sign statement? At the time I was happy with it, it made sense. I couldn't provide info on 2nd attacker

No-one would give a statement to police and say they were happy with it and that it made sense. You would say you were happy with it because that's what you saw and did. To say "it made sense" implies that it's a yarn that he made up that made sense to him.

Wow, JJ, great pick up and brilliant logic! :bowdown: Oh how I wish Judge Desai would pick up on that one ... lease:

 

[Interested Bystander]

Estelle, I think it is a foregone conclusion that the three F's are going to figure. This is the usual cry when there seems no other answer to be had (Tortoise will be pleased lol). At no time has HvB indicated any physiological symptoms of FFF other than he says he fainted. Surely he would have mentioned sweating, difficulty in breathing, vomiting, cold hands etc.

It seems he has been visiting a psychologist for some long time but I wonder whether we are going to hear from that particular psychologist or another of Botha's choice. I was unable to listen to the court proceedings today and can only comment on the tweets. That would be interesting to know. He has been seeing a psychologist since the event - now 2yrs 9 months ago. I have no idea how often. If we are not going to hear from her I would be concerned that somebody with more knowledge than anyone about HvB has been sidelined for someone with perceived greater ability/power in court appearances. Although at this point we do not know if anyone is going to appear but how can somebody provide comment without being open to cross examination.

I am also interested in his sister's comment that he was odd and also his arrogance and aloofness together with his monotonic and robotic speech whilst in the witness box . His constant fiddling with a "tool" whilst waiting to appear has often been commented on. His demeanour was definitely bizarre for someone in his position. I haven't forgotten the report that his behaviour in Oz was suspect whilst at university there. If true it could have thrown some light on his disposition. Neither side seems to have followed this up, as far as we know.

 

[Tortoise]

Holy cr*p - what is Botha up to. Has he been reading these pages? Are we now going to hear that this behaviour can happen when the culprit has some sort of psychological problem.

He's a real anomaly dontcha know. He can faint for over two and a half hours, all six foot of him can unconsciously do forwards rolls down the stairs, he can avoid stepping in blood while dancing in a blood bath with the attacker, can't hear two attacks taking place in his bedroom doorway despite the same sounds being what he heard earlier from the bathroom, can see his mother and sister lying on the floor without realising it...

I suppose the only saving grace is that Henri will have very little avenue for appeal. That lawyer who sits up front of Botha drives me nuts with her shaking head. She has a job to do but believing him is just taking it too far.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Where I say Marli said HvB was odd she in fact said "he could be a d*ck sometimes". The following is a definition from an urban dictionary which says "Being a d*ck" (utter, complete, etc) is to have a tiny thread of logic to your words or actions, while completely missing the point, being socially autistic, probably causing offence and maybe causing physical harm to an innocent." Little did she know just how true this would turn out to be.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

He's a real anomaly dontcha know. He can faint for over two and a half hours, all six foot of him can unconsciously do forwards rolls down the stairs, he can avoid stepping in blood while dancing in a blood bath with the attacker, can't hear two attacks taking place in his bedroom doorway despite the same sounds being what he heard earlier from the bathroom, can see his mother and sister lying on the floor without realising it...

I suppose the only saving grace is that Henri will have very little avenue for appeal. That lawyer who sits up front of Botha drives me nuts with her shaking head. She has a job to do but believing him is just taking it too far.

You've got him pegged to a tee, it's pathetic listening to his rubbish story! And the build up from Botha about his 'stutter', what a load of crock!

 

[PrimeSuspect]

HvB is being indulged to a ridiculous level! I was thinking about it last night, the same was done for Jodie Arias in her appeal. He has a lot similarities to her, imo. They can spout out the most absurd story and EXPECT to be believed.
HvB imagined he was doing well in the witness box, it was the eventual line of questioning one would normally expect in a murder trial by Desai and Galloway and the straight out accusations that have him stumped! Botha relayed as much yesterday so out comes the psychologist sitting in the wings.

Like Arias, he's a pathological liar and has a sugar sweet persona when called for, they're accustomed to being believed no matter how outlandish their stories or excuses are.
Arias also showed boredom and a superior air while on the stand, they take pride in their intelligence (both are above average) and outsmarting the prosecutor and Judge on occasion when the questions were tricky. They took notes and listened intently to the witnesses.

HvB accepted little defeats that he 'should've known better', like locking the back door or using the emergency number on the fridge but it comes across as insincere, like he's humouring the court, he KNOWS he's RIGHT! lol There's no empathy for their victims and I imagine he's as needy as Arias in an intimate relationship.

They're both kinda 'crazy', but not mentally ill if that makes sense. They've gone to extreme lengths to prove their innocence and thought they made no mistakes! Whatever illusion they've created in their head is the truth.

So I'm leaning towards a personality disorder/s, cluster B - borderline, narcissist or anti-social, these 3 share traits with some differences. The borderline and narcissist have low emotional intelligence and can't stand to be alone, they need constant validation and admiration.

In the end, it doesn't matter what makes him tick, he's a cold blooded killer like Arias and in their minds they were justified in removing someone who betrayed or insulted them.They consider themselves above the law and are dishonest to an extraordinary degree even if the truth would be more beneficial. The need to be seen as a hero and/or victim is another classic trait of the cluster B.
I'm not a psychologist so it's armchair analysis from me.

 

[Tortoise]

You've got him pegged to a tee, it's pathetic listening to his rubbish story! And the build up from Botha about his 'stutter', what a load of crock!

Oh, I missed out my favourite one.

His body disappears when he is scared! His shorts received 90+ blood spatters while he stood watching the attacks, but his upper torso, legs, head and hair received none.

I'm so glad Marli managed to give him a good punch.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Excellent, Prime and Tortoise.

 

[Estelle]

HvB is being indulged to a ridiculous level! I was thinking about it last night, the same was done for Jodie Arias in her appeal. He has a lot similarities to her, imo. They can spout out the most absurd story and EXPECT to be believed.
HvB imagined he was doing well in the witness box, it was the eventual line of questioning one would normally expect in a murder trial by Desai and Galloway and the straight out accusations that have him stumped! Botha relayed as much yesterday so out comes the psychologist sitting in the wings.

Like Arias, he's a pathological liar and has a sugar sweet persona when called for, they're accustomed to being believed no matter how outlandish their stories or excuses are.
Arias also showed boredom and a superior air while on the stand, they take pride in their intelligence (both are above average) and outsmarting the prosecutor and Judge on occasion when the questions were tricky. They took notes and listened intently to the witnesses.

HvB accepted little defeats that he 'should've known better', like locking the back door or using the emergency number on the fridge but it comes across as insincere, like he's humouring the court, he KNOWS he's RIGHT! lol There's no empathy for their victims and I imagine he's as needy as Arias in an intimate relationship.

They're both kinda 'crazy', but not mentally ill if that makes sense. They've gone to extreme lengths to prove their innocence and thought they made no mistakes! Whatever illusion they've created in their head is the truth.

So I'm leaning towards a personality disorder/s, cluster B - borderline, narcissist or anti-social, these 3 share traits with some differences. The borderline and narcissist have low emotional intelligence and can't stand to be alone, they need constant validation and admiration.

In the end, it doesn't matter what makes him tick, he's a cold blooded killer like Arias and in their minds they were justified in removing someone who betrayed or insulted them.They consider themselves above the law and are dishonest to an extraordinary degree even if the truth would be more beneficial. The need to be seen as a hero and/or victim is another classic trait of the cluster B.
I'm not a psychologist so it's armchair analysis from me.

Prime, i agree with your assessment but from what I know, personality disorders are not considered to be mental illnesses or mitigating factors in a court of law especially not just bringing it up now as an explanation for why HvB did not assist his family members.

However, I found these articles which you might like to read.

http://www.nwu.ac.za/sites/www.nwu....2015volume18no1/PERSwanepoelNote2015(18)1.pdf

http://jaapl.org/content/37/2/182

 

[Interested Bystander]

He's a real anomaly dontcha know. He can faint for over two and a half hours, all six foot of him can unconsciously do forwards rolls down the stairs, he can avoid stepping in blood while dancing in a blood bath with the attacker, can't hear two attacks taking place in his bedroom doorway despite the same sounds being what he heard earlier from the bathroom, can see his mother and sister lying on the floor without realising it...

I suppose the only saving grace is that Henri will have very little avenue for appeal. That lawyer who sits up front of Botha drives me nuts with her shaking head. She has a job to do but believing him is just taking it too far.

I noticed that and it irritated me too. My overriding feeling was how immature her behaviour was. I don't think she really believed him and it was more for public consumption.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think mental illness has to be pretty bad for the court to take it into consideration. Seemingly he has been living a normal life until this event.
Even if mooted that he suffered from some illness, why did not Botha bring it up at the start of the trial? It could have been a "get out of Jail" card for HvB. He knew what he was doing and it was hideous. I hope he gets 20 years but I suspect there will be some leniency for some reason or other. It also wouldn't surprise me that when the verdict arrives, if he gets the opportunity, he will end it all. He doesn't look the type who would accept life in prison.

 

[Rayemonde]

I think mental illness has to be pretty bad for the court to take it into consideration. Seemingly he has been living a normal life until this event.
Even if mooted that he suffered from some illness, why did not Botha bring it up at the start of the trial? It could have been a "get out of Jail" card for HvB. He knew what he was doing and it was hideous. I hope he gets 20 years but I suspect there will be some leniency for some reason or other. It also wouldn't surprise me that when the verdict arrives, if he gets the opportunity, he will end it all. He doesn't look the type who would accept life in prison.

He's pleaded not guilty though, rather than not guilty due to insanity. He can't say, I didn't do it, but if I did do it it's because I'm mentally ill. In fact *if* he does have any kind of diagnosed mental illness that could be used as a defence or mitigating circumstance I should think his lawyer would try to have it suppressed. Otherwise the prosecution would be using it as a motive and it could prejudice the judge.

 

[Tortoise]

The problem is that HvB has not been diagnosed with any psychological symptoms, but it has been reported that he has been seeing a Psychologist since the murders. One would have thought that this Psychologist would have given evidence.

However, my prediction is that it is another Psychologist whom Botha knows will give him the answers he needs.

Did Botha give you the impression that HvB has already been interviewed by this Psychologist and they are just waiting for her answers now?

In court, HvB said he couldn’t bring himself to help his family.

“If I had been thinking clearly I probably would have done these things. If I hadn’t been so scared.”

There are three possible responses to trauma - Fight, Flee or Freeze.

My prediction is that the Psychologist will talk about the Freeze response such as HvB was frozen in fear to explain HvB's inaction.

The problem with his treating psychologist being called to give evidence is that he is feigning being a victim and it comes across that he's not even practiced that very much. At least in Pistorius' case he could feign some sort of guilt for having killed Reeva.

In court he hasn't expressed or displayed any problems coping with the loss of his family, flashbacks, or traumatic memory of having watched his family suffer such violent deaths. He's talked the court through the attacks in a very matter of fact way and the only times he has welled up were when Desai has been somewhat incredulous. The nearest he got to mentioning any kind of problem was saying that he has nightmares about the intruder's laugh and he put on a display of sitting on the floor when they viewed the video. I think he thought that was enough and he didn't need to do any more than that.

It seems to me that he is so unaffected that he can't even mimic an emotional state. I really believe that this was Botha's main concern about putting him on the stand. He knew Henri wouldn't stutter but he thought he could put that down to the cameras being turned off, until he lost that argument.

I agree that this expert will be there to give a talk about FFF. It will be general and non-specific, just like the Dr who spoke about fainting/concussion, and Olckers who never tested the DNA samples but said they were invalid just on principle. It's telling that the defence hasn't tested the evidence or had Henri examined by their experts. I wonder what happened to Perumal.

 

[Interested Bystander]

He's pleaded not guilty though, rather than not guilty due to insanity. He can't say, I didn't do it, but if I did do it it's because I'm mentally ill. In fact *if* he does have any kind of diagnosed mental illness that could be used as a defence or mitigating circumstance I should think his lawyer would try to have it suppressed. Otherwise the prosecution would be using it as a motive and it could prejudice the judge.

I really didn't make myself clear. I think if Botha knew there was some sort of mental problem before the trial he would have known it could be better for HvB to plead guilty due to mental illness. Botha obviously knows he is guilty and I am guessing that HvB has insisted on trying to get away with his BS story. Now Botha seems to be attempting to produce evidence which could show that HvB does indeed have a problem in order to sway the verdict. All too late.

HvB is said to be very bright and I am astonished how he cannot see that his story is unbelievable.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Article in Times Live 6th November 2017

Five holes in Van Breda’s story
By Tanya Farber

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2017-11-06-five-holes-in-van-bredas-story/

 

[Hag]

HvB is said to be very bright and I am astonished how he cannot see that his story is unbelievable.[/QUOTE]

Agree. Jason Rohde on the other hand (trial also in court) looks super worried that his story won’t be believed.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Would the yawning gaps between the state’s version of what happened‚ and Van Breda’s own‚ unnerve him in the box?

And‚ most importantly‚ would he incriminate or exonerate himself from the mind-boggling accusation that he savagely attacked four of his own family members‚ leaving three dead and one with retrograde amnesia?

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/so...breda-leaves-trail-of-riddles-in-witness-box/

 

[Rayemonde]

I'm interested to know more about his brain defect and if it could have anything to do with his behaviour.

 

[JudgeJudi]

This is yet another desperate attempt by Botha to save his client. During the many lengthy consultations he had with HvB, he was able to observe him answering questions. If he saw warning signs, or red flags, or indeed had any doubts regarding his mental health, he could have sought a clinical consultation or even a formal evaluation of his client’s mental health.

It's so obvious that this is a desperate ploy to try and excuse the fact that HvB did nothing to help, aid or comfort his family.

If the psychologist doesn't testify and Botha only produces his/her report, Galloway can argue that the statements contained in it were from a non-witness that she was unable to cross-examine and such are hearsay.