South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #4

[JudgeJudi]

Galloway says there was only one incoming call at 07:39

"After you had already spoken to the emergency services

"Which phone was ringing?"

"I don't know," says Van Breda

#VanBreda heard Sasha bark and phone ringing when he gained consciousness. Blood on stairs due to his wounds. Was confused, makes sense now.

G: timeline of phone calls, incoming call at 07:39, after you spoke to EMS?
H: Yes

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-henri-vanbreda-faces-tough-cross-examination-20171106[/URL]

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

G: but according to you, you heard the phone ringing before you called EMS, which phone was this?
H: I don't know

G: EMS Philander says it took some time to establish where you were?
H: correct

G: why didn't you get frustrated with EMS when they didn't react quickly?
H: I did, but tried to suppress those frustrations

H: if I thought she was being incompetent I would have mentioned it


https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc

G: you testified that Sasha was barking from phone ringing? H: Correct, this was after I regained consciousness

G: which phone was ringing? H: I don't know.

Botha objects, says comparing apples with pears

Botha objects with regard to phones ringing in statement vs. testimony. Says we're comparing apples with pears

G: During your call to ER you remained calm, while trying to pinpoint location. H: correct

G: How come you didn't get frustrated with them when they didn't act quickly? H: I did get frustrated.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Galloway asks about the emergency call: "What did you do to convey your feelings of frustration?"

Nothing, it wouldn't have helped the situation, Van Breda

You appear to remain calm - Galloway

Galloway hammers Van Breda that his emotional state was calm

Advocate Botha objects
Galloway counters that even the emergency operator "thought it to be a prank"

Botha objects, says he could pick up frustration in #VanBreda's voice.

#VanBreda: under impresion doing most I could. Was trying to help, be quick as possible. Didn't know had to convince her there was a thing.

Why didn't you get frustrated that they didn't react quickly? #VanBreda I did. I tried to suppress it, it would confuse communication.

G: you appeared calm during phone call...Botha objects says it is a matter of argument

Van Breda says he kept calling Bianca to speak to someone Van Breda says he kept calling Bianca to speak to someone

#VanBreda says he was trying to not show his agitation over the phone.

G: you used mobile to call Bianca, no more than 5 times? Why?

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-henri-vanbreda-faces-tough-cross-examination-20171106[/URL]

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

G: your whole reason for calling EMS is to get a quick reaction, why didn't you get upset?

H: I was doing the most, had I known they thought it was a prank, I would have been angry

G: you appeared calm during phone call...Botha objects says it is a matter of argument

G: even emergency operator says you were calm and not agitated, she even flagged her supervisor and thought it was a prank

H: I was trying not to be agitated and hold back frustration

G: while on land line, called Bianca several times...why didn't you use your phone to call estate services

H: I was trying my best not to reflect my agitation during call. With hindsight, I should have been

H: that is absolutely what I should have done, in hindsight

G: you used mobile to call Bianca, no more than 5 times? Why?

H: I was calling her just to speak to someone

G: you tell the court, you didn't think numbers of fridge were helpful...
H: if reconsidered, I should have called numbers

G: what was Bianca supposed to do? She is a minor school girl that lives in hostel
H: she was my only friend in SA at the time

G: so you don't rethink and contact someone else, like Dr on the list

G: why did you not mention Rudi, and why did you mention head injuries of Marli?



https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc

G: You verbalize certain emotions, but in your call you don't appear in any way frustrated or excited? H: was just trying to help

Botha objects, he recalls frustration in Henri's voice. Ms. Philander agreed that #vanbreda remained calm during call.

G: you tried to get quick assistance, but with your mobile phone you tried to call Bianka 5 times? Why?

H: If I'd reconsidered the list of emergency numbers I would have used it. In hindsight I should've

G: Didn't you think finding neighbour would have helped? H: didn't think it would save any time

G: Why did you call Bianka over emergency numbers? H: She was pretty much my only friend at the time in SA.

G: During the call, you said that family members have head injuries but "my sister is moving". You did not mention Rudi?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Van Breda called Bianca because "She was my only friend in South Africa at the time"

G: you tell the court, you didn't think numbers of fridge were helpful...
H:if reconsidered, I should have called numbers

If I reconsidered this list, while on phone, I probably would've ended up seeing 24hr emergency number. Had just scanned it.

#VanBreda told Philander family had head injuries, Marli moving.

G- interesting didn't say Rudi making noises Why mention head injuries?

Van Breda explains he was taught not to help because he might do more damage

https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-henri-vanbreda-faces-tough-cross-examination-20171106

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

H: from listening to phone call I wasn't entirely sure about injuries

H: in Australia if you say someone has head injuries, emergency services come quicker

H: I've seen half the attacks...

G: you didn't mention this before? You didn't feel this Court needed to know this

H: we learnt these things at school. We were always that with head/neck injuries a bystander can do more damage

H: I thought medical people would be able to help


https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc

H: In Australia, if you say that somebody that is bleeding from head or struggling to breathe, services have to act immediately

G: Why did you specifically say head injuries on phone? H: I'd seen half the attacks

 

[JudgeJudi]

Galloway argues it was a bigger necessity to get hold of Bianca rather than sit with the family
Van Breda rejects it

Not saying that so people wouldn't ask how you knew the injuries suffered if you're not the attacker? #VanBreda: I saw half of the attacks.

G: why not just sitting close to them, instead you felt the need to get hold of Bianca

H: we learnt these things at school. We were always that with head/neck injuries a bystander can do more damage

#VanBreda says he feels he could have handled the call better. Listening to it is agonising, he tells Judge Desai.

https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-henri-vanbreda-faces-tough-cross-examination-20171106

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

G: why not just sitting close to them, instead you felt the need to get hold of Bianca

H: I suppose I could have sat with them

H: I think I should have said four people attacked. I could have handled the cal better, listening to call was agonizing

H: they asked for Landmarks in the area, I referred to this from my maps


https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc

On head & neck injuries, Henri confirms that in Australia you're taught procedure at school

g: Why didn't you sit with family? H: Thought it was more pertinent to get hold of operator. G: you mean Bianka?

H: I could've handled the call better. Listening to it now is agonizing for me. Things could've gone so much better.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

G: you were coherent enough too google this and get them to your location

H: no when I clicked on my location, it came up as a few blocks around the corner

H: in order to reach location picked up you would have to go past de zalze to get there

G: you remember, during cross exam of WO Engelbrecht, he used your phone to check geo location coordinates obtained on your phone?

H: I never said i would meet them at 10 Alleman Street, but offered to wait there to make things easier

G: as I understand it, two different locations where picked up 12 Goske and 10 Allerman street by the defence team?

H: explains difference because one search done in 2015 and another in 2017


https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc

G: You were coherent enough to give street names for emergency services to find you? H: Yes, i was using the Maps app on my phone

H: I offered to wait at 10 Alleman Street as alternative so services could pass my house first.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Van Breda says he clicked on the arrow on Google Maps to get his location

G: you were coherent enough too google this and get them to your location

Coherent enough to relay coordinates. #VanBreda: no, seems that way from records. Didn't type in coordinates. Automatic by clicking on app.

To reach 10 Allerman (the address his phone picked up), would have to pass his house. #VanBreda wanted to flag them down.

H:in order to reach location picked up you would have to go past de zalze to get there

Van Breda's phone reported two different addresses for the geo-location

https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-henri-vanbreda-faces-tough-cross-examination-20171106

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

H: if you are trying to suggest I was at 10 Allerman, there is no way the cordless would have picked up there

G: you didn't not move anything on the scene after the incident?
H: No

G: forensic expert found no unknown footprints/ fingerprints or foreign DNA in scene

H: We found DNA of Rudi and your father on shorts and mother's on socks, and your DNA and Rudi's in your shower

G: your explanation for DNA in shower is that you shave in shower?
H: yes. It is common for us to shave in shower

H: Rudi would also shave in shower and so would dad


https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc

G: WO Engelbrecht testifed that he checked your phone for co-ords. Two different locations found (Alleman & Goske streets)

H: There's no way I was at 10 Alleman Street if that's what you're trying to suggest?

G: Did you move anything on the scene after the incident? H: No

G: Are you aware that forensic experts found no unidentified footprints or fingerprints on scene? H: Okay

G: they did find the DNA of Rudi, your mother and your father on shorts. H: Correct

G: your explanation is that the blood in shower is from cutting yourself shaving? Botha objects, no evidence on "presumed" blood

 

[JudgeJudi]

#VanBreda says he never said they would meet them at 10 Allerman, but in the street. "The plan I had didn't come to fruition."

He and Van Niekerk got 10 Allerman in 2015, #VanBreda says. Believes that in the meantime the systems were updated.

H: explains difference because one search done in 2015 and another in 2017

Galloway: "Experts found no foreign DNA on the scene"

Only found family member DNA on the scene

#VanBreda says he didn't move or change anything on the scene, besides what he had already told the court.

H: We found DNA of Rudi and your father on shorts and mother's on socks, and your DNA and Rudi's in your shower

Adv Botha objects to blood in shower, says its presumed to be blood.

H: Rudi would also shave in shower and so would dad

Galloway taking the strategy of working through Van Breda's testimony

G: in your version, neither the axe or knife was taken into bathroom?
H: correct

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-henri-vanbreda-faces-tough-cross-examination-20171106[/URL]

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc

H: It was a regular occurrence to shave while showering. So would Rudi, so would Dad.

G: With reference to blood on bathroom wall, blood cannot move by itself, can only be transferred. H: Touched wall after shaving?

Botha firmly objects to questioning, saying that there was personnel on scene afterwards. Says accusation is "preposterous"

G: the only person who could transferred blood from bedroom to bathroom could have been you? H: No, officers were on scene.


https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

G: if one has regard to fact that blood can't move on its own. It had to be transferred by something or someone?
H: Correct

J Desai: they than blood what could it have been?

H: it could be that we touched stuff when in shower, I don't know.

G: in your version, neither the axe or knife was taken into bathroom?
H: correct

G: it is only you left who could transfer blood to the bathroom?
Botha objects to this question

G: it wasn't put as fact, but merely as a possibility

G:asks again, having excl possibility if intruder transferring blood to bathroom, or anyone else, that would leave only you?

H: no, because there were officers that entered the scene

 

[JudgeJudi]

Desai: if it's not blood, what could DNA be? #VanBreda: maybe we touched there recently?

G: Blood can't move on its own, it has to be transferred. The attacker never went into the bathroom. #VanBreda: correct.

"I didn't sustain any injuries after I regained consciousness," says Van Breda

#VanBreda: Officers were in the house before photos were taken.

Blood flowed straight down even after Van Breda passed out - Galloway

No smears or prints on your body. #VanBreda: not that we can see on the photos.

All sustained before lost consciousness. HVB: Correct.

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-henri-vanbreda-faces-tough-cross-examination-20171106[/URL]

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

G:except for tricked of own blood, scratch marks and superficial wounds on chest, there are no other blood marks on your body?

G: you struggled with attacker and managed to disarm him. The axe was bloody enough for it to leave a trail when it hit?
H:correct

G: no blood transferred onto you when you struggled with attacker, or used the axe?
H: that's not true

H: some little Blood spots not tested, could be from axe


https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc

G: If one looks at your superficial wound, it runs straight, didn't change blood flow from when you passed out? H: Correct

G: When you eventually threw axe at fleeing attacker, there was still enough blood on it to leave trail on wall? H: Correct

G: None of that blood it to your upper body during struggle? Why? H: Dr. Albertse didn't test certain blood but noted it out loud

 

[JudgeJudi]

Despite all the blood on the axe, none of it got onto Van Breda's upper body during the struggle over the axe

Van Breda disagrees but says: "I agree that there were no obvious other drops"

Galloway: Why was there no blood on the bottom of your socks?

Van Breda: I don't see a problem with that

"I didn't step in blood"

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-henri-vanbreda-faces-tough-cross-examination-20171106[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Dog also didn't step in blood, says Van Breda

G: Why did we not see bloody paw prints from Sasha?

HVB: I suspect she didn't step in blood either

Galloway: It's not a question of you having shut her (Sasha the dog) in the garage before you went to attack your family?

Van Breda denies it

Van Breda says the dog would bark if it were locked in a room

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-henri-vanbreda-faces-tough-cross-examination-20171106[/URL]

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

G: why did you not see any bloody pore prints of Sasha?
H: she also didn't step in blood

G: you said she can climb stairs, but sometimes struggles and Needs help

G: Sasha's while family was upstairs and you lost consciousness, but there were no paw prints?

G: perhaps you locked her up in garage, that would explain why she didn't bark?
Botha objects

G: rephrases that would explain why she didn't bark that night?
H: no bec she would have been barking and scratching at door

G: this could account for cpt browns opinions that blood in front door could have been caused by the axe?
H: yes possible

G: how did the knife go be up under Rusi's bed?
H: it could have bounced there when I dropped it or pushed by Rudi


https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc

G: Seeing as you were the victim, how did you explain bottom of your socks being almost clean? No blood?

H: I didn't step in blood.

G: Why no bloody paw prints from Sasha on scene? H: I presume she didn't step in blood

G: Whole family was upstairs while you were passed out. Yet no paw prints from Sasha?

G: It's not like you locked her in garage while you attacked your family...

Botha objects, the question makes no logical sense.

H: If Sasha was locked in a room, she would be barking and scratching and trying to escape

G: Captain Brown's opinion that mark near front door could have been caused by axe? H: yes, I suppose it could.

 

[JudgeJudi]

That will explain why Sasha didn't bark that night. #VanBreda: no, the opposite. She'd be barking and scratching on door, trying to escape.

G: perhaps you locked her up in garage, that would explain why she didn't bark?
Botha objects

You didn't shut Sasha in the garage? #VanBreda: No.

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-henri-vanbreda-faces-tough-cross-examination-20171106[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Would account for mark in wall at front door, which Captain Brown said could be caused by the axe. #VanBreda: Yes, I suppose it could.

Van Breda: More likely that Rudi moved himself from the bed to the floor

Galloway: You could have moved your brother from the bed to the floor

Rudi moved from bed to floor on own volition?
#VanBreda: alternative is that one of attackers came back to move him.

[Huh? So HvB chases the attacker down the stairs, and then one returns to move Rudi????? I can’t believe I’m hearing this]

G: how did the knife go be up under Rusi's bed?
H: it could have bounced there when I dropped it or pushed by Rudi

G: How did your duvet end up on the pool of blood? #VanBreda: I don't know.

[url]https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/live-henri-vanbreda-faces-tough-cross-examination-20171106[/URL]