South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #4

[Interested Bystander]

I don't get too much of an opportunity to take everything in when posting the tweets, but I have an overriding impression that Desai isn't buying Butler's facts/theories. Does anyone else think the same?

I agree JJ. He seems to be unimpressed by and slightly antagonistic towards Dr B but he will have a big problem refuting the diagnosis. Wetting his pants is HvB's only link to a possible seizure. Surely if he wet his pants there would have been urine on the stairs although maybe nobody thought to look for it. If he was a bedwetter it could be there might have been evidence of this in his bedroom .

 

[JudgeJudi]

Galloway refers to #VanBreda's seizure earlier this month. No report of incontinence or amnesia. He had loss of consciousness, Butler infers, from his shaking. Seizure lasted about a minute, he says.

In 2016 seizure, #VanBreda couldn't remember what he felt like. No incontinence, no loss of consciousness for an extended period.

Janse van Rensburg's description of him after 2016 seizure indicates #VanBreda was postictal.

Galloway says it appears as if the totality of the events in 2016 did not last for 2h40mins? Butler agrees.

Galloway asks why after a long seizure #VanBreda doesn't inform any doctor [on day of murders]? Butler says if it was malingering he would draw attention to it.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Wow, Botha is arguing with Desai and he's told to sit down.

 

[JudgeJudi]

How common is a loss of consciousness of 2h and 40m, Desai asks. Dr Butler says it happens, "undoubtedly". Adv Botha objects, Desai tells him to sit down.

Dr Butler says he has seen hundreds of instances where patients had seizures and postictal periods of 2h40m long.

You have seizures that are 2h40m, others are short. This is well documented, Dr Butler says. "People have long seizures and don't end up at doctors." You don't recognise that something is wrong, he explains.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Botha pops up to object to Galloway's contention that Henri never told any doctor about his grand mal seizure. Botha claims he did tell someone, he told the police [that he fainted]. Galloway + Judge sigh with exasperation. "He didn't tell any medical doctor at the time."

Wow. Desai asks Butler how often a 2 hour 40 minute seizure happens. Botha jumps up, Desai angrily cuts him down.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Desai: How common is it for a patient to have a seizure for over 2h40m? Butler: It happens infrequently, but it does happen.
[This tweet is wrong. Butler said it’s common]

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Galloway says medical history of #VanBreda doesn't show any sign of similar episodes. This is also what he testified, she points out. Butler says he probably fobbed it off.

[How can an expert witness say that … probably fobbed it off???]

[URL]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

It comes up again and again that a person suffering from epilepsy might malinger in certain circumstances, but there doesn't seem to be an attempt thus far to ask why there might not be malingering in this case. Why would accused try to hide his epilepsy?

Henri does a nervous lip snarl behind his defense crew as the line of questioning skips to potentially dangerous territory.

Botha spins around to have a quick word with Henri on this question of his medical history. Court waits. Unusual.

[URL]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Galloway says #VanBreda family appeared close. Isn't it strange family didn't notice it?
Butler: No, its commonplace.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Galloway: Is it unusual that Henri's family didn't notice his myoclonus? Butler: No not at all.

Dr B: found a discharge on the machine and only by finding that did I look and see the movement.

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[L2L]

I don't get too much of an opportunity to take everything in when posting the tweets, but I have an overriding impression that Desai isn't buying Butler's facts/theories. Does anyone else think the same?

Yes, absolutely!

 

[JudgeJudi]

VanBreda had a "patchy memory" of morning of murders, Butler says. HvB said he was told he hadn't answered some questions.

Galloway says he was able to immediately direct first responders to first floor. In ambulance, he relayed what happened. Knew EMS didn't see to wounds?

Memory will be imperfect but may be capable of laying down some memories, Dr Butler says. Galloway says #VanBreda gave Butler far more vague and patchy information than that given in court.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Adv G Absolutely certain that ER didnt clean his wound, there is a lot of detail he remembers and it appears that wasnt relayed to you

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Can you imagine having a dinner party with Butler and Olckers as your guests? The mind boggles.

 

[L2L]

Can you imagine having a dinner party with Butler and Olckers as your guests? The mind boggles.

Worse still , seated between them!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Galloway says #VanBreda gave impression of fragmented memory to Dr Butler, but in court relayed information in a very different manner.

Galloway says #VanBreda described interrogation as fragmented, but in court he told a different story, with details from what he wore to what he ate. Butler: I agree that you can discount the strength of that evidence.

Butler says after regaining consciousness, some functions return. You may be blissfully unaware of your deficits.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

There seems to be a mirror now, comparing the lucidity of a person before a major crime, and strange behaviour afterwards to an epileptic fit.

Henri shifts uncomfortably in his seat as Galloway speaks about Henri's inconsistent versions.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Desai: is it likely that he had this seizure earlier in the evening perhaps during the event? Dr B: unlikely based on the events which he recalled and told me

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Galloway refers to #VanBreda not using the contact numbers on fridge. He gives clear reasons why he made certain decisions at the time, she says.

Butler: if the judgement at the time was poor, it may be postictal.

Were it not for your diagnosis, would you have found his demeanour on emergency call inappropriate?

Butler: I would agree. I suspect general public who have heard it would be struck by the inappropriateness of the behaviour.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Nice point from Galloway. If Henri was so out of it, how and why was he able to Google the estate's co-ordinates etc. A lot of problem-solving capacity during EMS call. I'll meet you outside at that address etc.

Botha just made a totally ridiculous point. Not paying attention? Galloway refers to Henri's precision decision making as per his plea explanation and testimony. Why he didn't refer to refrigerator EMS nos, wanted to save time.

I'm finding the doc irritating. He refers to Henri's behaviour as "utterly" consistent with post seizure behaviour, and yet there's this mismatch of dazed demeanour and lucidity.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

 

[Bohemian]

I don't get too much of an opportunity to take everything in when posting the tweets, but I have an overriding impression that Desai isn't buying Butler's facts/theories. Does anyone else think the same?

I noticed a couple of moues and sighs.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Galloway refers to #VanBreda not using the contact numbers on fridge. He gives clear reasons why he made certain decisions at the time, she says.

Butler: if the judgement at the time was poor, it may be postictal.

Were it not for your diagnosis, would you have found his demeanour on emergency call inappropriate?

Butler: I would agree. I suspect general public who have heard it would be struck by the inappropriateness of the behaviour.

In emergency call, #VanBreda spoke slowly, clearly, calmed himself down by smoking before phoning EMS. Butler says brain isn't working, but person still feels need to justify themselves even though they were in a dysfunctional state. Need to justify even greater in a court case.

Butler: There is some brain function. But where are you on a scale from 0-10? System is not working perfectly.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Really not sure how bright the doctor is. I guess when you have a hammer, everything is a nail. Most of SA could see the EMS call was highly dodgy. He sees it as epilepsy aftermath. But *not* malingering?

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Evidence before him, Butler says, gives strong impression #VanBreda had postictal delirium. 'Sy kop werk nie reg nie'.

Memory much more clear in court than what was alluded to you? Butler says fact that he was lucid beforehand and less so afterward is more pertinent to him.

Dr Butler says he is unsure of how long #VanBreda trial has been running.

"Long time," Desai replies.

Adjourned until tomorrow.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Butler is biased. He has an answer for everything to excuse what HvB said after the murders, before and during the trial. I think Galloway needs to apply more pressure.

 

[Bohemian]

Oh my Lord! Not another day of this! :hills:

 

[L2L]

Many thanks, JJ, for your brilliant work updating for us.:tyou:

 

[Bohemian]

Many thanks, JJ, for your brilliant work updating for us.:tyou:

Hear hear! Thank you very much JJ x

 

[JudgeJudi]

One last tweet, and it's good.

So to summarise another pointless day in court: when Galloway asked Butler how he knew Van Breda had lain still on the steps for so long‚ Butler replied: “Because he told me.”

https://twitter.com/HiRezLife

 

[chinacat67]

The timing of this alleged seizure is just too convenient for my liking. Butler can’t comment on it as he’s merely going on what HvB told him, and Danielle has a vested interest in keeping him out of prison. How nice that she contacted her father, a GP who takes it upon himself to ring Butler who just happens to be a neurosurgeon who specialises in epilepsy.

He said he had the seizure on Wednesday, 8 November. I thought it would be interesting to see if what happened in court prior to the 8th had anything to do with the alleged seizure.

Go back and read Galloway’s final day of cross-examination on Monday, 6 November commencing at #796. That would have been enough to give HvB an apoplectic fit … literally.

Definition:
A malady, very sudden in its attack, which arrests more or less completely the powers of sense and motion; it is usually caused by an effusion of blood or serum in the brain, and preceded by giddiness, partial loss of muscular power, etc.

HvB would have been extremely stressed ever since his absolute grilling on Monday. If he had a past history of seizures, why didn't he mention this to the doctors who saw him following the murders? Surely it would have been relevant.

My daughter had a stress seizure for the first time this summer, at age 21. She was under enormous stress and was just suppressing rather than dealing with the stress. Very frightening to her (she was alone and driving and had to pull over when she felt light-headed) and me.

So for once I believe he is being truthful.

That said, none of this would be admitted in court here in US because it is irrelevant!! He would get a few days trial hold while getting better/meds whatever but that is it.

Even if trying to say could have been a seizure to explain the delay in calling for help, this seizure has zero to do with it and I suspect no way a 3 hour window of post seizure catatonic after a stress induced seizure that may or may not have even happened.

Seriously, I don't know how much longer I can take this trial! Desai is smart and keen but seems to be bending over backwards to avoid any issue on appeal which is neither the way to conduct a trial nor going to stop the totally inevitable appeal by someone.

Can you imagine if the OJ trial.back in the day had been like this here in US?? Lordy, the time, the delays, the circus antics of defense and for months and months and months....and months and months. It was bad enough to have all that in a continuous daily mode for months, but at least we knew it had end sooner than later. "Sooner than later" passed in this trial during the darn summer, it's just endless now.

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