South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi Van Breda, 22, Murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #5

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

J Desai: in a family of four, the first person who was attacked would shout, but this didn't happen

Botha: he never said that

Botha: Butler considered the possibility of malingering. He was monitored by camera when an EEG was conducted. At any stage, he didn't not rely his suspicions of Epilepsy to the accused

Botha: Butler asked Henri #VanBreda if he has panic attacks, out of body experiences, etc? Henri told the doctor he gets twitches and his gf reports observations

J Desai: Myoclonic is a very fancy term. All we saw on the video is a slight twitch. That's a lot of weight attached to a slight twitch of the finger

Botha: #VanBreda told Butler of the events that took place the morning after the murders. Then asked about loosing control of his bladder, he said the police told him it happened when they came on the scene

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv B: with respect he never said food deprivation played a role in my conclusions that was not his evidence Judge Desai- says no it was sleep deprivation


Adv B: Butler admitted my client to the epilepsy ward, did and EEG on him and monitored him by camera, and he did not at any stage relate to the accused what his suspicions were

Adv B: Accused explained what had happened to him 2 days prior, the accused related another incident, not the night that his family was murdered,

Adv B: Very nb Dr Butler then asked him that evening about panic attacks, de ja vu, smelling something not there, everything Henri says no

Adv B: then he says oh yes I have these brief twitches sometimes once a day sometimes over a few days, girlfriend reports she saw it in 2016 but they did not think that it was serious

Adv B: Butler did not inform him of his suspicions as a result of my bias. He then, when monitoring him saw a slight jerk of the thumb, and says its a myclonic seizure

Judge Desai: that is alot of weight to attach to a slight twitch of a finger

Adv B: the jerk of the thumb was seen at precisely the same time his thumb twitched there was a spike on the monitor from that moment he knew henri had juvenile myoclonic epilepsy

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv B: then without telling Henri this, he asks him what happened that morning and Henri says what he told the court, Butler then asks if he has ever experienced similar or urinated himself

Adv B: Henri says oh but the police said I had urine on my pants that morning

Adv B: he then tells a story of an evening he drank alot and didnt sleep much and had a seizure-

Judge Desai: what is the point? Adv B: if he had a seizure during that time that explains the 2hr40 min my client cannot remember

Adv B: not suggesting that he could have done anything while in that state, that is not our case at all

Adv B: on the sunday we are then contacted and Dr Butler informs us of the diagnosis and says he is convinced he suffered a seizure on the morning after the incident, he then compiled a report

Adv B: he says he had these seizures and he could not fake the seizures he had when he was monitored

Adv B: Dr Butler- makes it overwhelmingly possible that the accused memory loss for that morning as a result of a seizure. Adv B: medially 2 possibilities, trauma to the head if someone hits you or a seizure

Adv B: but also not a focal seizure, before my client knows the symptoms he gives to Dr Butler the symptoms he had

Adv B: no pre-warning its as if your brain shuts down. Now unless my client is one of the most brilliant people on this planet that he knew to choose those particular symptoms

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

Botha: #VanBreda told Butler of the events that took place the morning after the murders. Then asked about loosing control of his bladder, he said the police told him it happened when they came on the scene

J Desai: Mr Botha cut to the chase, what does his say about your client assuming Butler is right?
B: it's explains the time lapse of 2h40mins...

B: based on my clients version and the blood smear on the steps, he was lying on he stairs during that period of time in a tonic clonic state

J Desai: he can only postulate it as a medical possibility and not a fact

B: Butler says for an abrupt loss of consciousness to happen, it's either a blow to the head or a seizure

Botha: it's not a possibility but it's even higher than a probability that my client suffered a seizure on the morning of murders. There can be no doubt

Botha: Butler listened the emergency phone call and his dull appearance, is consistent with a post ictal state.
J Desai: but your clients reasoning was that he spoke slowly because he stutters....
B: my client didn't know this

J Desai: but your client was coherent and able to reason.

How do you explain his failure to react?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv B: based on those symptoms Dr Butler says, loss of consciousness, urine incontinence, you accept its a seizure until proven otherwise, so on the evidence, I would submit its not a possibility its higher than a probability that he experienced tonic clonic seizure

Adv B: on the evidence, we submit, there cannot be any doubt. The state says that there is a possibility of malingering

Adv B: Dr Butler says that you can exclude malingering, it is so remote that possibility that you can exclude it there is no doubt about it that he was not malingering

Adv B: he listened to the phone call, all suggestive of his post-cital state

Judge Desai: his evidence is that he spoke slowly so as to not stutter, so he did not say that he was in this post ictal state his evidence is that he elected to speak slowly

Adv B: My client did not know this, but Dr Butler said that he sees it all the time patients in post-ictal state think they are functioning fine but they are not cognitive ability is impaired

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Judge Desai; but he was thinking logically, speaking on the phone he makes rational decisions, Adv B: well we all asked why did he not call for help? Now Dr Butlers evidence explains why he was in post ictal state, cognitive functions not working

Adv B: the Dr did not limit the issues of post-ictal state to dull appearance, he explained thereafter that the brain waves initially look like someone who is brain dead, then waves reboot but its muddled

Adv B: sometimes that cognitive impairment can take days to go away, he even said his behavior that evening with Dr van zyl could be explained by that state

Adv B: then the issue of the incontinence, this was not a slight glipsie, urine was on both sides, it was a large stain, neglect of that, Henri did not know about it he forgot about it, only remembered later when asked by Dr Butler

Adv B: then with regard to the neglect of the injuries- Henri does not know how he got the injury and according to Dr Butler that is how he got it

Adv B: other possible explanations pertaining to the incontinence, Dr Butler deals with that extensively and effectively excludes possibility of any other reason other than loss of consciousness

Adv B: if somebody maintains a loss of memory, that loss of memory is normally associated with the act itself. He could not find an instance where a person says I lost memory after the event

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

Botha: the photo of shorts shows that there was urine on both sides. He was unaware of this and he also was unaware of bump above his eye

Botha: Butler says malingering can be excluded....
J Desai: Mr Botha we have been through this

Botha: what are the probabilities that my client three years ago would have foreseen that he would be diagnosed with juvenile epilepsy and make his version fit with this?

Botha: In summary, Butler shows, accused has myclonic epilepsy, he suffered a seizure in Jan 2015, leaving him disorientated and calm

Botha: why would unknown assailants attack your family or target them? But it should also be asked, why would my client do it?
J Desai: it's almost as if they were killed in a frenzy, in anger. What concerns me is the highly personalized nature of the attack

Botha:crimes in SA display gratuitous violence. We have seen in the press a Stellenbosch man attacked next to his wife....
Just because it was violent, it does not mean that it was my client. Andre van Breda, Andre Du Toit said there were no problems in the family

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv B: issue of malingering- Dr Butler said probabilities of malingering can effectively be disregarded

Adv B: he says what are the chances my clients would have foreseen, 3 years ago, that he would develop JME?

Judge Desai: The problem is that the Dr testified after the accused so the accused could not be cross examined Adv B: the state could have asked to recall him? They did not

Adv B: in this post-ictal state what are the possibilities that such a person could concoct a lucid and coherent version, but also remain consistent. This evidence remains uncontradicted not even cross examined on this issue

AdvB: now deal with accused as a witness and it links to Dr Butler's evidence

Adv B: when the court has regard to the fact that on the scientific medical evidence before your lordship that statement was taken down from my client when he was in a post-ictal state

Adv B: Sgt Malan was not a good witness- Judge Desai but his evidence was un contradicted iro admissibility

Adv B: what Malan wrote down is not what was said by my client Judge Desai it is clear the accused has a good understanding of the english language, Adv B: We just want this to be noted, and Dr Butlers evidence deals with this anyway

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv B: Motive Judge Desai: in our law motive is not required Adv B: but motive is important here everyone asking why would someone attack this family

Judge Desai: the attacks were in a frenzy and its the personalised nature of the attack the person had did so with definite intent

Adv B: in this country we see this terrible gratuitous violence all the time, man murdered in his bed in stellenbosch stabbed in his bed, Kalk Bay murder - no reason

Adv B: important to remember evidence said this family was perfectly normal nothing wrong no reason to think that there may be any issues

Adv B: my clients version he goes to the loo to move his bowels, sitting on the toilet playing games on his phone, it is physical evidence, it is there in the toilet

Adv B: state says he is on the toilet doesnt bother with niceties like wiping himself, he runs down the stairs grabs an axe and attacks his family

Adv B: my version is that he is there and hears rudi being attacked and doesnt bother with niceties, with respect that is more likely than the states version

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv B: it is the states obligation to prove beyond reasonable doubt that his injuries were self inflicted it is not the defence's obligation to prove that they were

Judge Desai: what if the court finds they were self inflicted? All we are saying is that only the cuts could be, and it would only be part of all the other circumstantial evidence

Adv B: It starts with the doctor who examined him and made notes then Dr Tiemensma only had the photographs of the accused in the ambulance

Adv B: I am saying if they were self inflicted it would be more unusual, I then ask if they are less likely to be self inflicted (referring to stab wounds)

Adv B: Tiemensma said on their own the stab wounds would be less likely to be self inflicted

Adv B: we are saying in the context of that she did not say all of them are self inflicted

Adv B: we submit that Dr Tiemensma is not a neurologist and she was not prepared to concede, she had an inherent informational bias she was asked look at these photos are they self inflicted

Judge Desai her evidence was supported by Dr Dempers and she did make concessions, how do you explain that this was text book self inflicted

Adv B: one must have regard that these experts are normally deal with fatal self inflicted wounds they are pathologists

Adv B: they were hindered by photographs that were not life size they were not 3D they did not have dimensions, they conceded that determining whether the wounds were self inflicted was one of the hardest thing you can do

Adv B: also you have my clients version, the case law says that direct evidence carry more weight than expert opinions regardless of their experience unless my clients version is found to be untrue

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

Botha: whose version is more probable??? I would submit my clients version is more probable by miles

J Desai: if the court concludes that the injuries were self inflicted?

B: if you make the finding that cuts in arms were self inflicted, it will simply be part of a bunch of circumstantial evidence. Just one aspect cannot be elevated

J Desai: how do you explain that the general appearance of the injuries are classical to self inflicted and identical?

Botha: those experts deal with fatal self inflicted wounds because they are pathologists. Must have regard to this.

Botha:fact that they appear superficial is only one aspect. Dr Tiemansma only examined the photographs. Could not examine the deepness etc

Botha: if there was a possibility that the chest wound was not self inflicted, then who would've stabbed my client? Couldn't have been Rudi or Martin?

J Desai: why can we not consider the probability that there was a struggle with one of the victims?

J Desai: if your client was involved in a massacre of this scale would you not expect some injuries to be inflicted on the perpetrator?

Botha: the narrative of the state would not support this....

 

[Fluffykins]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

B: my client hears it and calls for father who runs in he attacks father and the attacker then goes out of the room attacks his mother and returns to the room as he knows my client is still there my client fights him and disarms him and he runs out

Judge Desai: 4 people in the house nobody calls for help? Adv B thats not the evidence, my client shouted rudi was sleeping he coudn't shout, my client says his mom may have shouted he cant recall

Judge Desai: why wouldnt even the first attacker call for help from the second attacker?

Judge Desai: is it probable assailant comes there everyone is attacked nobody calls for help, your version postulates them searching the drawers but they dont take anything from the house Adv B: but they needed to get out?

Adv B: its not our version there was no cry for help, he cried for help, he can't recall if mother cried for help, thinks that she likely did

This is just sounding totally farcical. It's so bizarre, it's Monty Pythonesque. hwow:

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams @CapeTownEtc #vanbreda

Adv B: the cuts are not all parallel - some curl around, Judge Desai; they were not done with a ruler

Adv B: then begs the question if some of these stab wounds were not self inflicted it leaves the question, who stabbed my client?

Adv B: u will have to find that all his injuries were self inflicted? Judge Desai why not inflicted by the victims in defence- Adv B because that is not the states narrative

Judge Desai: if you are involved in a massacre of this scale wouldnt you expect some injuries to be inflicted on the perpetrator? Adv B: Are you suggesting an injury by another family member, you may be correct

Adv B: but we dont have evidence of that, we do have bloody shoe prints not known we do have the samples which did not produce DNA results we only know one blood spot had Rudi's DNA we do not know DNA of other drop

Adv B: now dealing with evidence of Dr Dempers. He also said that if I look at only the wounds I exclude the possibility that they are not self inflicted, he looked at the entire narrative

Adv B: to disprove that the knife would remain stuck and he used a piece of park (substitute for human abdomen) at that stage he knew what his experiments show he says its simply not possible it would remain stuck

Adv B: he then showed his video clips of the experiment in court

Adv B: he stands there and he uses the pork and I asked him about it and the point is he pushed exhibit 2 50cm into a piece of pork and shakes it and confirmed the cold piece it stayed inside for 2-3 seconds

Adv B: to mimic human temperature he heated it up in microwave, he then sticks the knife into the pork and it remains stuck for even longer, and the very obvious surprise, on the video he laughs and says "erge beweging"

Adv B the professor despite his own experiments was still willing to testify that it is impossible for the knife to remain stuck


Court adjourns for lunch

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv Botha dealing with blood of the mother on Henri's toe, the expert confirmed it could have been drip Originally Kleynhans said there was no blood but he then testified that we could not remember

All we saying is that it is possible that the blood which was on Teresa's sock could have been from drip

Adv B: dealing with the cast off stains created by the axe when it hit the wall above the stair case we simply saying, given those unknowns, on their own version they cant exclude as a reasonable possibility that it was thrown

Adv B: finishes his submissions but would like to deal with the state's heads in reply before he closes

 

[PrimeSuspect]

[video=youtube;4GE_nREMjNk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GE_nREMjNk[/video]

 

[Interested Bystander]

Desai looks cheesed off with the proceedings.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Adv B; the reference to security and cameras, does not take into account that only 1 thermal camera and 35% of the area had cameras

Adv B: suggested that dog closed up in garage- thats pure speculation, Henri dealt with this in cross examination and denied it, we did not know where the dog was and simple as that

Adv B: dealing with the 117/118 swabs that were taken, this is going back to the bathroom swabs which were not sealed


https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

Botha: it's pure speculation that the family dog, Sasha, was locked up when the family was attacked

Botha: it's incorrect to say that the accuse Accused and Rudi blood was found in the shower, rather it was the DNA that was found

Botha concludes his closing argument

J Desai: what do you say about the glitches in security that Mr Botha pointed out

Galloway: that's as purely a dip in power

 

[Fluffykins]

So Judge Desai said Botha could have until teatime, and he's kept going until they're now off for lunch, and still Botha doesn't sound anywhere near finished. When is he going to wind it up? When is Galloway going to have her time to reply? This just keeps getting weirder, and it also strikes me as some of the strangest dialogue we've heard so far. The way Judge Desai is arguing with Botha, rebuking him even.

You're doing a fantastic job, Prime. Thanks much. :tyou:

 

[PrimeSuspect]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

Galloway: the states case is not that the estate was impenetrable.....gaining access is possible but might either be injured or detected

Galloway: there was no strange vehicles seen speeding away from the estate or on the scene

Galloway: it's not common cause that Martin worked at the dining room table after dinner

Adv G: it is not the states case that the accused was dressed only in his underwear, or that it did not contain everything the accused had told him, Malan testified that he had taken it down as it was told to him

Adv G: Concedes argument re two profiles in mixture result in Otto's report should be found in favor of the accused

Galloway: it's also not common cause when the accused had the cigarettes


https://twitter.com/Traceyams

Galloway dealing with her reply, and the defences argument on security- Rabie did not have access to the system at the time, he only commented on the content of the report

Adv G: note the evidence of Wyngaard and Afrika testified that the fence was in operation that night, did not receive alarms, they checked the kiosk door, officers in parow are also being monitored, no mention of these alarms

Adv G: thus it is the states argument that the most probably version is not that there were alarms triggered

Adv G; Wyngaard testified I went through the footage and the fence and responded yes there was nothing out of the ordinary

Adv G: testified that the request she sent to Tiemensma was based on the police enquiring on the injuries that is why she referred it to Tiemensma

 

[Fluffykins]

https://twitter.com/ajnarsee

Botha concludes his closing argument

:biggrin: :toast: :yesss: