South Korea -- Plane carrying 181 crashes off runs off runway, 179 dead. 29 Dec 2024

[iamshadow21]

Comprehensive, excellent article from ABC (Australia). It states, amongst many other things, that all passengers have been identified.

'Everybody would have walked away:' Runway may have doomed Korean plane

The investigation into the Jeju Air plane crash will take several weeks, but some experts say the placement of a concrete barrier at Muan Airport may have played a key role in the deadly aviation disaster.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Charlot123]

It reminded me of seldom quoted 2010 incident (loss of all electric power on board) with TU-154 emergency landing on an abandoned helicopter runway in Izhma, Russia. The situation when it overan the short (1325 m) runway and the landing speed was too high, no electricity, no flaps, fire inside the accumulator, low clouds, visibility 22 km. Plus, i can't understand how the wingspan of TU-154 fit into the abandoned runway. However, it is highly likely that the tiny tundra vegetation that started growing at the end of the runway played the role of nature-made EMAS. As the result, of 89 people on board, there were no fatalities.

Just to illustrate the role of the end of the runway. No flaps, minimal amount of fuel, no communication, visual orientation, high wingspan. Runway having been abandoned 12 years before (but diligently cleared by its manager, daily for 12 years.)

Runway - 1,325-metre-long (2500 metres necessary for TU-154 landing)

Landing speed 350 to 380 kilometres per hour (190 to 210 kn; 220 to 240 mph), the aircraft overran the runway by 160 metres (520 ft).

Alrosa Flight 514 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[iamshadow21]

The Guardian has an article about some of the victims who have been identified.

A toddler, a student, a family of nine: who were the victims of Jeju Air flight 7C2216?

The 179 people who died were aged between three and 78 and came from South Korea and Thailand

www.theguardian.com

 

[mmeynstyn]

This really is baffling for me. Why didn't the pilot or co-pilot pull the manual landing gear extension levers before landing? Here is a video showing the levers:

 

[lonewanderer]

About a year or so ago I took the flight from South Korea to Thailand using Jeju.

This is wild for me.

 

[iamshadow21]

Black box missing last four minutes before crash, South Korea ministry says

The flight data and cockpit voice recorders on the Jeju Air jet that crashed last month stopped recording about four minutes before the airliner hit a concrete structure at South Korea's Muan airport, according to the nation's transport ministry.

www.abc.net.au

Sim Jai-dong, a former transport ministry accident investigator, said the discovery of the missing data from the crucial final minutes was surprising and suggests all power including backup may have been cut, which is rare.

 

[Charlot123]

Black box missing last four minutes before crash, South Korea ministry says

The flight data and cockpit voice recorders on the Jeju Air jet that crashed last month stopped recording about four minutes before the airliner hit a concrete structure at South Korea's Muan airport, according to the nation's transport ministry.

www.abc.net.au

Sim Jai-dong, a former transport ministry accident investigator, said the discovery of the missing data from the crucial final minutes was surprising and suggests all power including backup may have been cut, which is rare.

Very. I remember only one case, but there should have been more. I hope they’ll get an answer.

 

[Charlot123]

Would some of these cases be.similar?

List of airline flights that required gliding - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[mmeynstyn]

Would some of these cases be.similar?

List of airline flights that required gliding - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yes, I believe so, somewhat. I focused on a couple of those 737-300/-400 since they are in the same model airplane series. Assuming they did have a dual engine failure, which I have to believe at this point, the May 1988 TACA drew my attention first because as a result of the dual engine failure, they lost electrical power. Since the latest news on this JeJu accident stated that the FDR and the CVR stopped recording data 4 minutes prior to the crash, maybe the lost of electrical accounts for that. Seems like they didn't have time to plan (fly to an empty field, longer runway, or a waterway) to ditch the airplane (as with some of the other incidents on the list). I have no idea if they had an engine failure and accidentally shut off the good engine, or if they had a dual engine failure during the go-around, and didn't have any good options at that point.

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, I believe so, somewhat. I focused on a couple of those 737-300/-400 since they are in the same model airplane series. Assuming they did have a dual engine failure, which I have to believe at this point, the May 1988 TACA drew my attention first because as a result of the dual engine failure, they lost electrical power. Since the latest news on this JeJu accident stated that the FDR and the CVR stopped recording data 4 minutes prior to the crash, maybe the lost of electrical accounts for that. Seems like they didn't have time to plan (fly to an empty field, longer runway, or a waterway) to ditch the airplane (as with some of the other incidents on the list). I have no idea if they had an engine failure and accidentally shut off the good engine, or if they had a dual engine failure during the go-around, and didn't have any good options at that point.

Thank you!

I am not an engineer so some things I may not understand. I did notice that many of these planes were Tupolevs - maybe the construction/idea is different. (Different amount of fuel under the wings, so the flight in case of dual-engine failure is shorter with Tupolevs?)

However, as one can see, birds can cause dual engine failure, so can volcanic ash. Some other things, too.

One YouTuber who is a French Canadian pilot mentioned the thing I have been thinking about all this time. It was a difficult week, with Korean politics, so probably the pilots were getting to bed later? Add a red-eye flight, and in Korea, pilots are allowed shifts for 12 hours. The YouTuber said NA pilots are not allowed to work over 10 hours. I remember the situation flying out of Boston. At first, some detail didn’t work and when the mechanics replaced it, that put the crew shift over 8 hour limit, and there is no Alaska Airlines hub in Logan. So, we planned to fly out at 7 am but ended up departing at 7 pm. However, as they say, regulations are written in blood, and there have been accidents due to flight fatigue, so strict rules are for a reason. It would be important to know whether the same crew flew to Bangkok and Muan, or they had two different ones, for example.

Anyhow, least of all I am ready to blame it on pilots’ mistake at this moment. I suspect it was a major disaster, the one of Swiss cheese type. They happen. I hope that for the sake of all who perished, and aviation safety in general, we’ll find out the answers. RIP all 179 people who died. Full recovery to these who survived. Condolences to the families.

 

[mmeynstyn]

Thank you!

I am not an engineer so some things I may not understand. I did notice that many of these planes were Tupolevs - maybe the construction/idea is different. (Different amount of fuel under the wings, so the flight in case of dual-engine failure is shorter with Tupolevs?)

However, as one can see, birds can cause dual engine failure, so can volcanic ash. Some other things, too.

One YouTuber who is a French Canadian pilot mentioned the thing I have been thinking about all this time. It was a difficult week, with Korean politics, so probably the pilots were getting to bed later? Add a red-eye flight, and in Korea, pilots are allowed shifts for 12 hours. The YouTuber said NA pilots are not allowed to work over 10 hours. I remember the situation flying out of Boston. At first, some detail didn’t work and when the mechanics replaced it, that put the crew shift over 8 hour limit, and there is no Alaska Airlines hub in Logan. So, we planned to fly out at 7 am but ended up departing at 7 pm. However, as they say, regulations are written in blood, and there have been accidents due to flight fatigue, so strict rules are for a reason. It would be important to know whether the same crew flew to Bangkok and Muan, or they had two different ones, for example.

Anyhow, least of all I am ready to blame it on pilots’ mistake at this moment. I suspect it was a major disaster, the one of Swiss cheese type. They happen. I hope that for the sake of all who perished, and aviation safety in general, we’ll find out the answers. RIP all 179 people who died. Full recovery to these who survived. Condolences to the families.

Retired engineer from Boeing here. Worked 737 Model for a good chunk of my career. Unfortunately, I am also thinking there was some pilot error. I looked at the video again and noticed the thrust reverser on the engine #2 (closest to the camera) was partially deployed. This tells me that at least one of the hydraulic systems ( I think Hyd Sys B) was working. So, it is not clear to me why those flight spoilers controlled by Sys B were not deployed. Not that they would have changed the outcome as that plane was going way too fast. This is just soo sad for those souls and their families.
See screen shot with TR partially deployed:

 

[Charlot123]

Retired engineer from Boeing here. Worked 737 Model for a good chunk of my career. Unfortunately, I am also thinking there was some pilot error. I looked at the video again and noticed the thrust reverser on the engine #2 (closest to the camera) was partially deployed. This tells me that at least one of the hydraulic systems ( I think Hyd Sys B) was working. So, it is not clear to me why those flight spoilers controlled by Sys B were not deployed. Not that they would have changed the outcome as that plane was going way too fast. This is just soo sad for those souls and their families.
See screen shot with TR partially deployed: View attachment 557205

Thank you!
That’s the engine that has evidence of “something wrong” on a photo, right? Could be a bird, or something else? Or do you think it, indeed, could be the R wing? A passenger texted that a bird hit a wing.
To me it looks like a big bird that got sucked through the engine. I know that Baikal teals were seen in the area. They are larger than common ducks.

Baikal teal - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I read about Boeing-800 turbofans: reliable, efficient, but with a wrong angle of the bird hitting it, what could be the worst case scenario?

Again, fully understanding that we shall not know what happened until in a year or more…

(Also, I think that after the two totally different catastrophes, AzAl and Jiju, the person who posted the graph of “the worst end of the year in aviation” has created panic and that led to overreporting. I am not subscribing to it.)

ETA: the passenger didn’t mention fire or smoke in the cabin. But of course, we don’t know what was going on in the cockpit.

 

[Chimera]

Would the passengers have likely survived this crash, if the cement brick wall hadn't been there ?
From the articles and videos, it looked like although it landed and then quickly collapsed on its' under carriage/belly, it may have been able to skid along until it stopped-- without bursting into flame ?
Idk if the fire would've happened anyway, it just seems like the collision made for more fatalities.
Omo.

 

[Justice101]

This really is baffling for me. Why didn't the pilot or co-pilot pull the manual landing gear extension levers before landing? Here is a video showing the levers:

What if they didn't have any electricity (therefor no hydraulics for the brakes)??? With no brakes, the aircraft would just rolls faster down the runway on those wheels.

 

[warp3dwing]

What if they didn't have any electricity (therefor no hydraulics for the brakes)??? With no brakes, the aircraft would just rolls faster down the runway on those wheels.

The 737 has a hydraulic accumulator for emergency brake application if the hydraulics systems fail.

“The accumulator uses its stored air pressure to give emergency brake pressure in the event of loss of hydraulic system A and B pressure. It can provide six full brake applications - even if all hydraulic power is lost. If you should get into that situation just apply the brakes and hold them on, don’t cycle or pump the brakes because you only get six applications. The accumulators also dampen pressure surges and assure instantaneous flow of fluid to the brakes regardless of other hydraulic demands.”

 

[Justice101]

The 737 has a hydraulic accumulator for emergency brake application if the hydraulics systems fail.

“The accumulator uses its stored air pressure to give emergency brake pressure in the event of loss of hydraulic system A and B pressure. It can provide six full brake applications - even if all hydraulic power is lost. If you should get into that situation just apply the brakes and hold them on, don’t cycle or pump the brakes because you only get six applications. The accumulators also dampen pressure surges and assure instantaneous flow of fluid to the brakes regardless of other hydraulic demands.”

Excellent information, thank you! That is important!

 

[Charlot123]

The 737 has a hydraulic accumulator for emergency brake application if the hydraulics systems fail.

“The accumulator uses its stored air pressure to give emergency brake pressure in the event of loss of hydraulic system A and B pressure. It can provide six full brake applications - even if all hydraulic power is lost. If you should get into that situation just apply the brakes and hold them on, don’t cycle or pump the brakes because you only get six applications. The accumulators also dampen pressure surges and assure instantaneous flow of fluid to the brakes regardless of other hydraulic demands.”

Do you know how often is hydraulic accumulator used in near-catastrophic situations? What I wonder is, would it be on top of the pilot’s mind, oh, this is what I need to pull at, or is it a very uncommon situation? They had very little time.

What I am thinking, I bet after “miracle on Hudson” this type of landing was probably trained on many simulators by many pilots. But if the need to use hydraulic accumulator - how common does it realistically occur? Could they have forgotten about it? Or is it an obvious step to use?

 

[warp3dwing]

Do you know how often is hydraulic accumulator used in near-catastrophic situations? What I wonder is, would it be on top of the pilot’s mind, oh, this is what I need to pull at, or is it a very uncommon situation? They had very little time.

What I am thinking, I bet after “miracle on Hudson” this type of landing was probably trained on many simulators by many pilots. But if the need to use hydraulic accumulator - how common does it realistically occur? Could they have forgotten about it? Or is it an obvious step to use?

It’s just a part of how the braking system works. There’s no need to activate it or set it. It’s always “on.”

Stressful situations - like the one these pilots encountered - does funny things to the brain. Things that would normally be obvious become confusing, and wrong steps are taken. That’s why training is so extensive for airline pilots.

The JeJu Air pilots definitely would have been trained on such systems in their aircraft.

 

[Justice101]

It’s just a part of how the braking system works. There’s no need to activate it or set it. It’s always “on.”

Stressful situations - like the one these pilots encountered - does funny things to the brain. Things that would normally be obvious become confusing, and wrong steps are taken. That’s why training is so extensive for airline pilots.

The JeJu Air pilots definitely would have been trained on such systems in their aircraft.

Good point.

Just watch one of the real simulator videos out there on youtube. They throw a lot of terrible situations at you in a simulator. In fact, I've heard there is very little regular flights time getting recertified with your ability to control the airplane, engage and disengage autopilot and land. Most of the time is where something goes wrong and you have to figure it out, follow the checklists and get yourself down safely on the ground.

I think the training is amazing and one of the 2 or 3 reasons why commercial flying is so much more safe than driving for example.

The statistic I keep going back to is that you would have to fly everyday for 10,000 years to have the same chance of dying in a plane crash in your lifetime as compared to driving.

 

[warp3dwing]

Good point.

Just watch one of the real simulator videos out there on youtube. They throw a lot of terrible situations at you in a simulator. In fact, I've heard there is very little regular flights time getting recertified with your ability to control the airplane, engage and disengage autopilot and land. Most of the time is where something goes wrong and you have to figure it out, follow the checklists and get yourself down safely on the ground.

I think the training is amazing and one of the 2 or 3 reasons why commercial flying is so much more safe than driving for example.

The statistic I keep going back to is that you would have to fly everyday for 10,000 years to have the same chance of dying in a plane crash in your lifetime as compared to driving.

Many if not most airline pilots like to hand fly as much as possible to keep themselves proficient. You’re right, it’s so easy for skills to atrophy when the autopilot is engaged shortly after takeoff and remains in until short final.

Yep, they throw everything at you in those sim sessions, and you better be ready! A lot of it is what’s known as crew resource management, which is the science of delegating the workload amongst the flight crew. During emergency procedures, one pilot is flying while the pilot monitoring runs the checklists. The dual crew is a big reason why commercial air travel is so incredibly safe.

I know many pilots who are very curious to see what happened in the flight deck on this accident flight. Missing the final 4 minutes of data might make that difficult. At least we should learn what lead to the curious loss of power.