Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #1

[10ofRods]

The subtle linguistic differences may not be apparent to the French and Spanish police, as English isn't their first language.

They're not noticeable to me, either, and I'm both linguistically trained and a native English speaker. People's utterances vary over time (considerably). People have moods, modes and various narratives.

I just don't see what you are seeing in her posts - but would very much like some quotes, to help me understand exactly what it is you're seeing. Perhaps you are from an area where Esther's more local dialect is spoken and you can discern that in her posts?

 

[10ofRods]

I was out walking my dogs tonight - it was pitch black and quiet along the lane. Although there were houses and it wasn’t very remote.. I started to imagine being alone, hiking out there in the mountains, especially when light begins to fade. I think you’d have to be a very brave and determined female to do that alone. It is not something I could even contemplate as I know I would feel horribly anxious and scared. My imagination would run riot.
Hats off to Esther and all the others who can do this... I’m envious really. They must get to experience wonderful things. But their courage is immense.

It's weird, but I've never seen it that way. I haven't hiked in the Pyrenées, but I have dreamed of it - seems much safer than hiking here in SoCal. In the desert, in the Sierra. I have done it myself and know so many women who have also done it (starting in high school, in the case of a very good friend).

I guess maybe I'm "brave and determined," but on the range of my own experiences, hitchhiking through Mexico was much scarier; bus rides in Central America were much scarier - and I really worried about the various solo women I met there.

Mountains and wildernesses seem more safe, to me. I do know how to camp off-trail, and have always felt safe doing so (I don't keep lights on at night). I worry more about temperatures and whether I'm properly outfitted. Esther seems to have had good gear in her (heavy) backpack.

I think she made an error heading up-mountain so close to dark. I don't know if she had a reliable headlamp (I have yet to find a 100% reliable one) and I certainly don't think it would be safe to come down that ridge with just a small headlamp. But that's just me.

If her plan was to go onward (toward France), did she miss the route to the refuge or did she plan to camp at high altitude on the snowy side that night?

 

[Rush4087]

Unlikely hypotheses incoming ...

French and Spanish media have reported the killing of a bear in the region of the Pyrenees in which Esther has gone missing. This happened on Sunday 29th November. The bear was said to be in a "hostile state", and the Spanish hunter who shot it is claiming he did so in self defence. So ...

Was there a rogue bear in the area that could have killed Esther? The police certainly seem to have ruled it out, presumably due to lack of evidence.

Could Esther have encountered this same bear, and have been fatally injured in an attempt to avoid / escape it?

Could Esther have been killed accidentally by a hunter, who has managed to conceal her body or has managed to remove it altogether from the scene?

All three options are somewhat unlikely, but I'm struggling to work out in my own mind what I think the most likely answer to Esther's disappearance actually is.

Combined with the track, I don't see how authorities could be so adamant in ruling it out.

 

[otto]

It helps to understand how/why the (France) Covid “lockdown” is irrelevant -IMO- if one recalls/checks that the rules “forbidding” travel on the French side of the border came in AFTER Esther went to Spain.

She even mentions herself that she “got out” to Spain just before the 2nd French lockdown came into effect. Probably/possibly deliberately?

Hiking etc is/was not prohibited in the area of Spain she was in.

You bet. She got out of France just before the Oct 29 lockdown, headed to Spain for a month of hiking where restrictions were less restrictive. She was expected back in France on Nov 25 after her 3 days hike starting on Nov 19 or Nov 22 (unclear).

She bolted from France just in time to avoid the lockdown of 1 hour per day exercise. There were few witnesses and hikers on the mountains in Vanesque and Pic de Sauvegarde because most people respected the lockdown - few people were on the trails so no one knows what happened.

 

[otto]

Grain of salt (Daily Fail)...

DEC 10, 2020
Search for Esther Dingley: Spanish police say it's 'impossible' and all but give up | Daily Mail Online
The boyfriend of missing British hiker Esther Dingley has called for a full investigation into the mystery figure spotted sleeping in his girlfriend’s campervan 10 days after she went missing.

[...]

Sources close to the case insist the person pictured in the Chausson van late at night was not Mr Colgate, with whom she has been travelling with for six years.

[...]

But Matt Searle, spokesman for Esther’s family and Mr Colgate, told MailOnline: ‘Daniel and Esther’s family are extremely interested to find out who was inside the camper with the lights on.

[...]

Officers ruled out the van sighting, claiming it was a plain clothed forensic officer – working late at night without protective clothing and driving an unmarked vehicle.

[...]

While Spanish investigators believe Esther is most likely to have suffered an accident in the mountains, their French counterparts across the border believe that is ‘not probable’.

They fear her disappearance is ‘either the result of a voluntary act or as the result of someone else’s actions’.

[...]

Today her family recruited the help of Mr Searle, who works for the missing persons abroad charity LBT Global, formerly known as the Lucie Blackman Trust, who was killed in Japan in 2000 while working as a bar hostess.

Mr Searle told MailOnline the charity would be using all its resources to look for Esther and urged the Guardia Civil to do the same.

[...]

In the supermarket, the Chia seeds had been marked at a discount which only applied to shoppers in possession of a store loyalty card, MC - the teacher who helped Ms Dingley in the shop - explained.

MC told MailOnline: ‘Esther wanted to buy a packet of Chia seeds which were discounted. But you only get the discount if you have the Eroski loyalty card.

[...]

MC explained: ‘I saw her a couple of days later doing yoga in the street by her camper van.

[...]

Thank you for the succinct history! I can't help but think of the Madelaine McCann investigation when relying on Spanish/Portuguese police - sometimes it seems like they are too eager to close an investigation regardless of facts.

 

[otto]

<snipped for focus>

I keep coming back to thinking about the lakes as well. Don't know if I missed something, but I've read about helicopters,drones and dogs being used, has anyone seen anything about divers? Have the lakes actually been searched? One of the witnesses Snr Ballarin has mentioned the lakes are "quite deep and not transparent at all in a lot of parts" so an overhead check by drone/helicopter might not be enough. Appreciate they might be frozen by now though.

I think it's a very real possibility that when she was almost back home with her partner and 5 dogs, loving the freedom, she gave herself that wee bit of risk to mark the end of climbing mountains until the next time.

One misstep on black ice or the thrill of stepping off the path is enough to start feet slipping out from under and whoosh - nothing to stop the fall, straight into the lake which in itself is not deadly, but a long slide in full gear wearing a backpack - no way to get out of it even for top athletes.

What's the point of divers? How deep is the lake? Word is that bodies surface in the Spring. Why should anyone put their lives in jeopardy for a reckless solo hiker?

 

[talby66]

The witness who took the photo was very clear that she saw someone asleep in the campervan. If that was police "presence" then it raises massive alarm bells about how this investigation is being conducted.

Edit: I won't be surprised if we see British police getting involved

The "event" took place on the 2 dec, it was reported a couple of days ago, why couldn't Dan simply call the police and ask (aren't they giving him support and updates?) instead they now have a spokesperson and splash it all over the paper, how come the new spokesperson with all their various "contacts" didn't find this out before going public?

<modsnip>

 

[otto]

It in the version of the Daily Mail that you access through PressReader.com - here's the link:

PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines.

Copying the article from the link

 

[Satchie]

The witness who took the photo was very clear that she saw someone asleep in the campervan. If that was police "presence" then it raises massive alarm bells about how this investigation is being conducted.

Edit: I won't be surprised if we see British police getting involved

I think when it comes to citizens going missing or being the victim or perpertrator of crime in a foreign country, there is nothing that the police in your originating country can do to pressure or direct the police investigation where the person disappeared. That is one of the risks of travel, you can't expect your own country to take charge if something goes wrong. You are on foreign soil, in a sovereign nation, you must accept that you are under the laws and police procedures and customs of that foreign country. That applies to foreigners in Britain, or the US, as well.

 

[mrjitty]

I think when it comes to citizens going missing or being the victim or perpertrator of crime in a foreign country, there is nothing that the police in your originating country can do to pressure or direct the police investigation where the person disappeared. That is one of the risks of travel, you can't expect your own country to take charge if something goes wrong. You are on foreign soil, in a sovereign nation, you must accept that you are under the laws and police procedures and customs of that foreign country. That applies to foreigners in Britain, or the US, as well.

Precisely. UK police have no jurisdiction unless invited in.

 

[mrjitty]

It's worth remembering that when foreign hikers go missing on solo treks in mountainous country, SAR teams put themselves at personal risk to rescue people, especially those not using basic safety items like an emergency beacon. This extends to the broader police and volunteers during time of a deadly pandemic. This is why in the NZ lockdowns, we banned our own citizens from many outdoor activities, precisely because we didn't want to expose police and volunteers to COVID danger when people inevitably get in difficulty and need to be rescued.

As such, comments about bungling cops are perhaps best left unsaid - especially for a hiker, who while likely complying with the precise letter of the lockdown rules, might have thought better of what the intent of those rules was.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

It's worth remembering that when foreign hikers go missing on solo treks in mountainous country, SAR teams put themselves at personal risk to rescue people, especially those not using basic safety items like an emergency beacon. This extends to the broader police and volunteers during time of a deadly pandemic. This is why in the NZ lockdowns, we banned our own citizens from many outdoor activities, precisely because we didn't want to expose police and volunteers to COVID danger when people inevitably get in difficulty and need to be rescued.

As such, comments about bungling cops are perhaps best left unsaid - especially for a hiker, who while likely complying with the precise letter of the lockdown rules, might have thought better of what the intent of those rules was.

Absolutely agree with you. There's no reason I can see for local LE to be criticised. We don't know the full story about the photo of the van etc.

 

[Normal Norm]

They're not noticeable to me, either, and I'm both linguistically trained and a native English speaker. People's utterances vary over time (considerably). People have moods, modes and various narratives.

I just don't see what you are seeing in her posts - but would very much like some quotes, to help me understand exactly what it is you're seeing. Perhaps you are from an area where Esther's more local dialect is spoken and you can discern that in her posts?

With hindsight, I should have written "The subtle linguistic differences that others appear to see may not be apparent to the French and Spanish police ...". I have barely skimmed through Esther's FB entries, let alone tried to analyse their written style, so I was not expressing my personal opinion about them. I was making a general observation, albeit it clumsily, in reply to the views being put forward by other posters.

 

[patCee]

It seems the police in France are still firmly of the belief that ED has voluntarily disappeared, or has been the victim of a criminal act. The Spanish err on the side that she is still in the mountain and will explore further as part of their mountain training exercise.
The picture of a map of the area she planned to hike the day she went missing looks like a path above a steep drop. Not one for bad weather conditions. The Olympic skier who saw her the previous day said conditions were good on that day.
Looking at beautiful photos of the area on a fine day, with clouds rising upwards through the mountains could create treacherous conditions for hikers.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/6390670/esther-dingley-police-france-spain-search-impossible/

 

[patCee]

Otto's pictures at 853 show a catalogue of beautiful pictures of the areas with the clouds rising up through the mountains.

 

[talby66]

From LB Trust message on Dan and Esther's facebook page:

No further updates are expected until Monday earliest, .....

How do they know she won't be found in the next 3 days?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

\


Ok I'm behind here. Is this Mr. Ballerin the fellow hiker who gave her a lift, the unknown stranger? If so, when did he come forward?!

No, not believed to be the same person.

Mystery hiker was on 19th
Ballerin was on 21st.

Think that’s right! I’m not convinced this Ballerin story is right; it got pulled from the DM and hasn’t been mentioned anywhere else .

 

[Grouse]

Absolutely agree with you. There's no reason I can see for local LE to be criticised. We don't know the full story about the photo of the van etc.

No we don't you're right, but we do have a witness report of someone seen sleeping in the van. If true, that is worthy of comment on a thread such as this IMO. Maybe it was harsh to imply criticism, perhaps it's the norm in some places for police to sleep in a victim's home. All depends on how reliable the witness's statement is.

Edit: I should probably have said "missing person" rather than "victim" at this stage

 

[Andreee]

\

I’m ruling out voluntary disappearance despite what Mr. Ballerin was quoted as saying about her desire to possibly travel to Toulouse. Any other time in history perhaps but not right now during the pandemic. The confinement is very strict. Even in the Aragon region of Spain where she was staying there was a curfew in effect from 23h to 6h while she was there. Along with masks at all times, public places closed or capped etc. . She would have been aware of all these rules and complications.
To travel to Toulouse by train/ bus she would have had to show ID and have her contact information kept for weeks because of contact tracing procedures. She also would need to have her “permission paper” on her to be out and about. The police and civil guard presence is real. The situation is taken very seriously there by residents. Also traveling by public transport in the region is challenging in normal busy times. I can’t imagine the lack of options during a pandemic.
Accident or foul play is the most likely scenario given the circumstances. Suicide where she is hidden as well sadly another possibility.

Ok I'm behind here. Is this Mr. Ballerin the fellow hiker who gave her a lift, the unknown stranger? If so, when did he come forward?!

No, not believed to be the same person.

Mystery hiker was on 19th
Ballerin was on 21st.

Think that’s right! I’m not convinced this Ballerin story is right; it got pulled from the DM and hasn’t been mentioned anywhere else .

Ah, ok thanks!

 

[Grouse]

I agree it does seem very odd for the police to be in there (at that time) and reportedly lying down but isn't this also just the start of the "sardine munching useless foreign police"? As I say just like the well known case.

You may be right. I still find it odd though.