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  • #1,401
He has not been cleared, but is currently a witness, not a suspect.

Re- "He has not been cleared"....Oh yes he has...Oh no he hasn't...Oh yes he has....It's panto time.....

Posted yesterday by Sillybilly :

ADMIN NOTE:

Some posts have been removed as they violate Websleuths TOS (aka The Rules, linked in my signature).

For our newer members and as a reminder to our more veteran members:

Do not state opinion as fact without MSM or LE to substantiate the fact. IF it is your opinion, make that clear in your post by adding IMO, JMO, etc.

Discussing what someone has said in MSM is fine, but insinuating their involvement or making direct accusations violates Websleuths victim friendly policy. If/when a person is officially named by LE to be a POI/suspect, they may then be discussed as a POI/suspect and may be sleuthed at that time, not before.

With respect to whether or not anyone has been cleared, Websleuths relies on information from official sources in that regard (i.e. MSM or LE). While the LBT is an admirable agency that is supportive of families of missing persons, they are not an official source for information at Websleuths. (Having said that, I now see that a link has just been provided to MSM that includes a statement from LE that DC has been cleared. Do not discuss him as a POI or suspect.)
 
  • #1,402
q
From what I’ve seen online (links in this thread and my own searches) and read here I read the LE’s statement more as “since we can’t actively search the mountain for ED we’ll be spending out time examining the other possibilities while we wait for better weather”.
<snipped for focus>

I recollect after the initial searches and before the weather deteriorated the prevailing opinion was that she wasn't up there, but that may have changed.

From Esther & Dan

"However, with no result day after day, taking into account Esther's high level of experience, the nature of the terrain, the good weather she would have had, the fact she had a clearly defined route for Sunday evening and Monday, and various other factors, both search coordinators have essentially told me that although they can never be 100% sure, the prevailing opinion in the search teams is that she isn't there. That if she had fallen from one of the paths, they really would have expected to find her given the intensity, the closeness of the search and the fact most of the trails are really quite straightforward across open ground."​
 
  • #1,403
Re- "He has not been cleared"....Oh yes he has...Oh no he hasn't...Oh yes he has....It's panto time.....

Posted yesterday by Sillybilly :

ADMIN NOTE:

Some posts have been removed as they violate Websleuths TOS (aka The Rules, linked in my signature).

For our newer members and as a reminder to our more veteran members:

Do not state opinion as fact without MSM or LE to substantiate the fact. IF it is your opinion, make that clear in your post by adding IMO, JMO, etc.

Discussing what someone has said in MSM is fine, but insinuating their involvement or making direct accusations violates Websleuths victim friendly policy. If/when a person is officially named by LE to be a POI/suspect, they may then be discussed as a POI/suspect and may be sleuthed at that time, not before.

With respect to whether or not anyone has been cleared, Websleuths relies on information from official sources in that regard (i.e. MSM or LE). While the LBT is an admirable agency that is supportive of families of missing persons, they are not an official source for information at Websleuths. (Having said that, I now see that a link has just been provided to MSM that includes a statement from LE that DC has been cleared. Do not discuss him as a POI or suspect.)

Stated by Admin - Sillybilly - 1376
The only agency WS relies upon regarding an individual's official status in any investigation is law enforcement via MSM. While members may discuss what is said in the LBT release by DC himself or the family, to conclusively state that he is "cleared" has not been stated by LE in MSM. The Chronicle article quotes LE as saying he is "not a suspect". This does not necessarily equate to having been cleared (only that he is not a suspect). There is a difference.
 
  • #1,404
Stated by Admin - Sillybilly - 1376
The only agency WS relies upon regarding an individual's official status in any investigation is law enforcement via MSM. While members may discuss what is said in the LBT release by DC himself or the family, to conclusively state that he is "cleared" has not been stated by LE in MSM. The Chronicle article quotes LE as saying he is "not a suspect". This does not necessarily equate to having been cleared (only that he is not a suspect). There is a difference.

#1376 by Sillybilly was a reply to an earlier post by Grouse. The Admin Note #1374 by Sillybilly clearly stating "that a link has just been provided to MSM that includes a statement from LE that DC has been cleared. Do not discuss him as a POI or suspect", has not been rescinded and therefore DC has been cleared by LE.
 
  • #1,405
I remember at the outset, French LE were certain that ED had not crossed into France.
Presumably this was based largely on information given by DC and also there being no evidence or trace of ED being at the Refuge de Venasque. However, Mr. Ballarin's later revelation of his conversation with ED on Sat 21st Nov and her plan to visit Luchon could be a game changer.
 
  • #1,406
#1376 by Sillybilly was a reply to an earlier post by Grouse. The Admin Note #1374 by Sillybilly clearly stating "that a link has just been provided to MSM that includes a statement from LE that DC has been cleared. Do not discuss him as a POI or suspect", has not been rescinded and therefore DC has been cleared by LE.
Ahh! yesterday evening, you're absolutely right and I missed the MSM that cleared DC. Thanks for the information. It was your first line that threw me off. Regardless I think I'll avoid even mentioning cleared or not cleared again, along with other unmentionable words.
 
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  • #1,407
Personally I don't put too much store in that conversation as they were both speaking in French not the first language of either.

Unless they were both fluent in French I'd say future tense type sentences are easy to misinterpret.

Very good point.

Spanish has two or three future tenses. In addition, there are probably some high level literary type future tenses that I am not familiar with.

In either case, one of Spanish futures involves placing a vowel at the end of an un conjugated verb. French probably has a similar construction as both are Latin based. As you said, this can be easy to miss and could lead to confusion about say:

"I will return to the house." verse "I now return to the house."
 
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  • #1,408
Has anyone got the link that reports LE have cleared DC of any involvement in ED's disappearance. Administration, SillyBilly referred to it yesterday. I've looked back but no luck in finding it. Many thanks.
 
  • #1,409
Has anyone got the link that reports LE have cleared DC of any involvement in ED's disappearance. Administration, SillyBilly referred to it yesterday. I've looked back but no luck in finding it. Many thanks.

It's in the Chronicle article here Aunt of missing hiker Esther Dingley fears she may have been kidnapped

(The chief officer leading the investigation) "He confirmed that Esther’s partner of 18 years Dan, 38, is not a suspect - adding that his “movements are covered”.

Not a suspect = No involvement.
 
  • #1,410
Been following this as it struck a chord with me....I can speak with some personal experience of nearly losing my life on a mountain here in North Wales (UK) The height was nothing like where she was but a friend and I set off on a beautiful day,which looked like the weather there but within 2 hrs I was trapped in severe wind,where I couldn't stand on my feet...fog where I couldn't see more than 2 yds in front of me ...snow that was a foot thick...and temperatures that dropped well below freezing.It's hard for anyone to imagine that scenario if you've never been there. It's ok for people to say that this is what people should be able to do but never,ever go alone.I got split up from my friend in seconds and was on my own all day.I was very,very lucky to survive.Only through sheer will power did I manage to get down.Every foot lower you go increase your chances of survival.I eventually crawled into a farm and collapsed.To be heading uphill to a summit at that time of day is suicidal.This all may sound dramatic to say the least but I could now give lectures on the subject of mountain survival.There were several major errors made on that day.When I looked back at the map several days later after recovery,I realised I had gone a massive amount away from where I should have been. In the dark or fog it can be easy to slip over an edge. Some vital things that should never be overlooked....you can't survive without water...wear extremely bright clothes...take a compass so that at least you can head in one direction even if like me ,you couldn't find landmarks....take a survival bag....take a whistle...and if there is any problem at all,start heading down.
 
  • #1,411
a recurring thought of mine that she could have used the refuge or camped there and not left a trace, but without the answers to the questions you ask it's plainly just speculative.
Snipped for focus

My thought about this "leaving no trace" in that refuge... For all ED could have practiced "no trace", there are some spots where she might legitimately have left a trace.

1. ash in the fireplace; I actually can't imagine she didn't build a fire in those temps.

2. using the privy; this would have been readily detectable by dogs; same if she peed just any old place. In fact, they were likely to find more than one pee spot.

3. it's unclear to me whether she actually had her tent with her. In an IG post, she used the term "bivouac" for spending a night out. This generally means "no tent". If she only planned to spend one night out on this trip, and she planned it for the refuge, if it were me, I'd have skipped the tent to save weight. They're heavy.

4. It seems as though SAR had dogs with them. They would have nosed out ED's aroma lingering.
 
  • #1,412
It's in the Chronicle article here Aunt of missing hiker Esther Dingley fears she may have been kidnapped

(The chief officer leading the investigation) "He confirmed that Esther’s partner of 18 years Dan, 38, is not a suspect - adding that his “movements are covered”.

Not a suspect = No involvement.
Thank you Lucy6226 I had read that article and read DC wasn't a suspect. For my sins I didn't think that 'not being a suspect 'was the same as being 'cleared'. Appreciate it being clarified.
 
  • #1,413
Snipped for focus

My thought about this "leaving no trace" in that refuge... For all ED could have practiced "no trace", there are some spots where she might legitimately have left a trace.

1. ash in the fireplace; I actually can't imagine she didn't build a fire in those temps.

2. using the privy; this would have been readily detectable by dogs; same if she peed just any old place. In fact, they were likely to find more than one pee spot.

3. it's unclear to me whether she actually had her tent with her. In an IG post, she used the term "bivouac" for spending a night out. This generally means "no tent". If she only planned to spend one night out on this trip, and she planned it for the refuge, if it were me, I'd have skipped the tent to save weight. They're heavy.

4. It seems as though SAR had dogs with them. They would have nosed out ED's aroma lingering.

True, you would imagine she'd light a fire if the refuge building itself was open. If it wasn't, or there weren't any logs, guess she might have camped outside and not bothered with a fire. I think I read she was tending to carrying the tent from IG posts (snail carrying everything she needed on her back to survive she said) on these treks and using it occasionally, so probably the temperatures weren't bothering her too much with her high end sleeping bag and other gear.

Good point about the dogs, I was forgetting that. I wonder if they got any scent of her at all on the summit, and if so where it led and where it ended?
 
  • #1,414
Thank you Lucy6226 I had read that article and read DC wasn't a suspect. For my sins I didn't think that 'not being a suspect 'was the same as being 'cleared'. Appreciate it being clarified.

IME "cleared" is usually a term used after someone has initially been suspected/accused. In a situation like this I'd have said "eliminated" is more appropriate - that's certainly the term that tends to be used in the UK - eg "the person has come forward to police and has been eliminated from their inquiries". Not sure if that's the same elsewhere.
 
  • #1,415
3. it's unclear to me whether she actually had her tent with her. In an IG post, she used the term "bivouac" for spending a night out. This generally means "no tent". If she only planned to spend one night out on this trip, and she planned it for the refuge, if it were me, I'd have skipped the tent to save weight. They're heavy.
I notice on the 21st she refers to herself as 'the snail' being on the move again. I thought that meant she believed she was slow. But then I read in an earlier post Nov 17 that "snail" meant she carried everything she needed on her back: her tent and all the gear she needed to stay warm. This gave her a sense of freedom to go forward in her exploration because (I assume) she could always retreat into her own little shell wherever/whenever.

I like @RedHaus suggestion above that perhaps the refuge didn't appeal to her when she got there, perhaps she didn't want to stay there alone, attract attention with a fire, etc, and instead continued on to try to find a place to set up her tent somewhere that would feel more private.

ETA: I also recall the search and rescue interview in the Guardian, mentioned that they didn't see her tent anywhere, so IMO that means Dan confirmed she'd taken it.
 
  • #1,416
I notice on the 21st she refers to herself as 'the snail' being on the move again. I thought that meant she believed she was slow. But then I read in an earlier post Nov 17 that "snail" meant she carried everything she needed on her back: her tent and all the gear she needed to stay warm. This gave her a sense of freedom to go forward in her exploration because (I assume) she could always retreat into her own little shell wherever/whenever.

I like @RedHaus suggestion above that perhaps the refuge didn't appeal to her when she got there, perhaps she didn't want to stay there alone, attract attention with a fire, etc, and instead continued on to try to find a place to set up her tent somewhere that would feel more private.

ETA: I also recall the search and rescue interview in the Guardian, mentioned that they didn't see her tent anywhere, so IMO that means Dan confirmed she'd taken it.

But wouldn’t she be pushing it a bit in terms of remaining daylight if she bypassed the refuge? I would think she’d have to have a pretty good reason.

One of you great sleuths on this thread...and there are many...posted an article that talked about long shadows of darkness on the mountains as daylight receded. Esther would have been familiar with this. My feeling is that whatever happened...occurred between her descent of the summit and her trip to the refuge.
 
  • #1,417
We know she was at the summit at 4.00- that’s what she told her partner. If we accept that as fact ATM, I’m not sure how far Esther could have wandered before nightfall which allowed her to safely and quickly pitch (and I’m guessing it was a pop up tent) her tent that would be so far away it would be out of the initial search areas. If it was getting dark and was a pop up and not pegged well, it could have blown away within the first few days before anyone alerted the emergency services she was missing. So I can see that she could have pitched, and the tent has disappeared, I’m just not sure how far she would have ventured in the dark away from the refuge in the first place.
 
  • #1,418
This is my first WS post, so please be kind. I feel deeply for the pain and anguish Esther Dingley's family and friends are experiencing. I have read every single post in this forum, from page one. I am convinced that ED’s close family and LE say what they say to media and how they say it because they know many more facts than we know.

That said, IMO, I am left with three major focal points for the mystery of what has happened to ED. And I am also left with the impression that IMO, ED could have made it further along her 11/22-25 itinerary than Dan or others think.

IMO here are my three major focal points:

1. Itinerary Discrepancy

On 11/22, ED tells her loved ones (and park authorities) of one itinerary that starts on 11/22 but 11/21 Mr. Ballarin hears of another itinerary. IMO there are three possible explanations:​

a) Mr. Ballarin misunderstood ED (language barrier) on 11/21 and ED never intended the route he heard

b) Mr. Ballarin understood ED correctly, but she changed her route on 11/22, or

c) Mr. Ballarin understood ED correctly, but she told her loved ones of an alternative route (perhaps, IMO, with an innocent intent to surprise Dan with an early return to him with plans to pick up the RV another time).​

This article has a map of the two routes (~3rd image, posted below). Can anyone verify accuracy per Ballarin?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9052621/Family-missing-hiker-vanished-Pyrenees-three-weeks-ago-issue-desperate-plea.html

Do we know if this quote is accurate?: “Rescue teams have also scoured alternative routes”
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/esther-dingley-police-believe-missing-hiker-went-missing-voluntarily/ar-BB1bS3SJ

2. Cell Phone Service:

We know there was cell phone service at the summit of Pic de Sauvegarde but not at Refuge de Vénasque. And we know ED’s phone was put on Airplane Mode at about 4pm on 11/22 with no further pings. If she survived an accident - or an encounter with a hostile animal or human - and was able to call for help, IMO, she would have.​

Since she did not use her cell phone after 4pm on 11/22, IMO there are four options:​

a) ED did not have such an incident,

b) ED had such an incident, but was / is too injured or incapacitated to call for help,

c) ED had such an incident, but did not have cell service where she was / is, or

d) ED had such an incident, but she did / does not have any battery remaining.​

Do we have any information to inform us where on Esther’s itinerary (planned and possible alternative) there is cell service vs. not? And have all the “no cell service” areas been searched?​

3. Refuge de Vénasque:

The LE say ED did not stay at the refuge the night of 11/22 or any night (e.g., 11/21) for that matter, I presume. But it is not completely clear to me if we should interpret that as defining whether Esther made it to that point in either itinerary. IMO, ED could have made it to the Refuge but did not stay inside per these possible scenarios:​

a) ED went for lake water before entering the Refuge and drowned (as others have discussed)

b) ED stayed the night outdoors in her tent at the Refuge and left no trace of being there (although would her urine or excrement be picked up by tracking dogs?),

c) ED continued walking the trail at dusk, passing the Refuge for whatever reason, like, IMO:​

i. ED found no running water at the Refuge and wanted to get to a stream in the woods ahead,
ii. ED was spooked by something and felt the need to keep moving to hide in the woods, or
iii. ED never planned to stop at the Refuge but rather camp further down her route.

Do we know more specifically about how the search teams ruled out Esther was not at the Refuge? And if it was due to her scent getting lost to the search dogs, where was that point exactly?

Further, do we know if ED’s scent was even picked up by tracking dogs at the Port de Vénasque, which she would have had to pass through to get to the Refuge de Vénasque from Pic de Sauvegarde?​

Clearly I've asked more questions than I've answered here! I look forward to others' thoughts!

Welcome to Websleuths!
Great post, really helps summarize where the sticking points are in this case. I believe that Spanish LE said dogs picked up nothing, which is weird.

I'll have to go back through the thread again and ponder the dog scent business. Today, I'm struck by how differently MSM is spinning what LE is saying ("She could be in a crevasse, we won't find her till Spring." "She could have drowned," "She isn't up there at all, she may have left voluntarily.")



 
  • #1,419
We just had a similar situation on Mount Rainier, too. One night overnight. Experienced hiker; quality gear. Nowhere to be found. Here: Deceased/Not Found - WA - Sam Dubal, 34, UW professor, Mother Mountain Loop, Mowich Lake TH, Mount Rainier, 9 Oct 2020

That case is extremely similar to Esther's, although I think they found a bit more evidence of him being up there. He was experienced, he had left word of where he intended to go, he wasn't supposed to be out there very long.

So strange. I wonder if Dr Dubal's disappearance is related to water. In Yosemite and Sequoia/Kings Canyon, death by water is the leading cause of visitor death within the parks, and thought to be responsible for more deaths that are unaccounted for.
 
  • #1,420
Welcome to Websleuths!
Great post, really helps summarize where the sticking points are in this case. I believe that Spanish LE said dogs picked up nothing, which is weird.

I'll have to go back through the thread again and ponder the dog scent business. Today, I'm struck by how differently MSM is spinning what LE is saying ("She could be in a crevasse, we won't find her till Spring." "She could have drowned," "She isn't up there at all, she may have left voluntarily.")


We know where they've got that from don't we?! JMO
 
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