Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[RickshawFan]

Well, I wouldn't refuse food someone who would ask me for it and looked like someone in need. Things happen.
But in mountain? With all due respect, maybe if it was quite warm and safe, then sure, I could share whatever I have while not having to worry about having anything to eat.
But even having some to spare I would not share it with some hippie minded weirdo who wants to get some enriching experience. Sorry, but no.
Things happen. What if I would found someone injured, who lost his food and is in desperate need and have nothing to gave because I already shared what I had with someone who just expected to get something for someone?
It might happen to me or someone else. And just because of that I wouldn't be up for encouraging such behaviour which I find dangerous. Most people carefully plan their backpacks and spends to be safe, sometimes some unfortunate events happen even with that.
More you travel and hike, more people you meet with that irresponssible attitude of planning things and spends poorly (and not as one time thing, not as a mistake) with hope of getting something for free from locals or other travellers, praying on their good intentions. More people like that - higher the risk of someone really unfortunate not getting help in need cause someone else with weird spiritual attitude drained all resources.

It's enough to hear once from someone taking way too less food or water on a trip, that he had a plan to ask someone for it through the hike to not be up for sharing anything with anyone.

I highly doubt that she got there with full stomach. It's not good to eat just before, have 200 calories through 24h and another meal after. It makes hiking unnecessarily harder.

Yes, yes, and yes.
Under the "10 essentials" protocols, you carry an extra meal on a day hike. Period. You'd want to take a whole day if you're in substantial backcountry like Sauvegarde, especially if there's no one else out there. And it's winter. You might need more calories than you anticipate.
As say, you would never give it up except in an emergency. If you were with a group and near the trailhead, maybe. Up on the Pic? Not a chance. It goes against every 10 essentials principle to give it up.
For a day hike, I'd usually take a spare peanut butter sandwich and an energy bar. Something like that. Cheap does the trick.
I've had an emergency bivouac 2 miles from the trailhead. For a day hike. I had extra food. Miserable night, but I had enough to make do and feel great that I had taken care of myself in my preparations.

The "10 essentials" are an international protocol that has been around for decades, at least since I started extensive hiking in the early 80's. And I learned them from old-timers. In case anyone is wondering what the "10 essentials" are, here is the National Park Service's edict for hikes in the Grand Canyon. These days, I would add a smartphone and a PLB; a piece of paper and a pencil are also essential.

 

[RickshawFan]

Or, much more likely, she only had dried food, knew she wouldn’t have chance to cook it for a couple of hours, and just fancied something fresh if the opportunity arose.

“Nice to meet you both, don’t suppose you’ve got a bit of fruit left over you, power me up this hill lol”

IMO, Cags, you've probably captured the wording verbatim! I'm thinking that was the exact script!

IMO it would be really bad planning to only have food that had to be reconstituted. That's all she brought for the next 3 days?
Not only that, in lieu of begging, ED could just sit by the trail and run her stove to boil water to reconstitute her dried food if she's hungry. It would take approx 3 minutes to boil the water and maybe 10 for it to set up while she admired the universe.
ED seems to have liked oatmeal, too. She could just pour cold water on it, hike down the mountain for 10 minutes, and it would be edible.

Anyway, I have a feeling that's not really the issue here. I'm thinking it's enough to acknowledge that ED evidently was in the habit of asking strangers for food. This would rub many of us (and others) the wrong way and for many of us, it would be a big red flag.
I'd get away as fast as I could from a hiker who did that to me.

 

[otto]

I feel the word 'goal' is generous as I see them drifting as a couple in a lifestyle that in some respects is without goals. Also the Truman Show comes to mind. ED seems good natured, caring and a bit childlike in the way she relates to people (food). I'm sure they would have ensured their vehicle was kept in good order mechanically. Other than that, they are leading a transient life with no real responsibilities or connection to anywhere or to anyone. They were successful academically but found real life too difficult.Academic life is sheltered to a large extent where others determine your goals.

How grounded are they in their thinking and decision making. Lots people choose this way of life, maybe not for 6 years , or at their ages. ED going off on month long hiking trips, alone - is that unusual in the hiking world? In this case jumping ahead of the French lockdown in order to maintain her freedom. How long for, if the lockdown goes on for the next few months?

I've known (2nd hand) of people living this way and even home schooling their children during their travels. Eventually returning and settling down to 'normal' lives. Something doesn't sit right here for me. Nothing terribly untoward as such, but this sense of drifting with no real goals. When your life consists of being on the road to new destinations with periods of hiking for years, is that enough. It feels like avoiding/ not coping with real life, not building anything.

DC insists there was no problems in their relationship and they do overall seem to be living in unison with their choices. I'm not sure that Laura's comments in the Daily |Mail re relationship problems are accurate. ED could have been describing the truth e.g. it's a break from each other (lockdown generates those feelings), and not being sure about when she's returning to DC, as in continually extending the time away. Exactly what has happened with continual extensions, apart from ED disappearing.

I realise none of this directly helps decipher what has happened to ED, but I sense that the rejection of 'normal' life is clear. It feels like an experiment rather than a strong sense of self with responsibilities and real life goals. It's what may have created a need for adventure, to push boundaries leading to tragedy.

Good point. I view life in terms of 6 month, 2 year and 5 year goals. Those are big picture goals.

Athletes set daily goals - reduce heart rate while lengthening activity level, for example.

By goal in relation to Esther, I'm thinking trip plan goals. I'm wondering whether those goals, plateaued so new factors were added, such as ascending the summit late in the day, packing for 3 meals when 6 are needed, hitchhiking rather than driving the van to a trailhead, staying on a mountain until a pending snow storm is too close.

Regarding big picture goals, Esther has not progressed beyond the goal she had 6 years ago: to embrace unconventional life. Whether she's living in the UK in a comfortable home and job, or traveling around beaches and hiking trails, it's conventional for some parts of society. Backpacker lifestyle has been popular since at least the 1970s, but most people go home sooner than 6 years.

These aspects of her life move me towards the voluntarily disappearance: suicide option.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Did you ever work out what the total rucksack weight was @RickshawFan? I’m intrigued, as when I last travelled (for 4 months) my total backpack weight was 6kg and my husbands was 8kg. We didn’t need to carry food or camping equipment, but I’m just trying to get a feel of how heavy her bag was in comparison.

 

[RickshawFan]

I'm vegetarian, as much as I can I prefer vegan diet. I never been in spain but in other european countries it's just expansive to eat like that. And usually it's hard to find good things around less populated, hiking trail areas.
Buying it wherever may cost few times more than making one big grocery shopping in bigger city (if you have a way to store it).
She was probably starving. Maybe even without realizing that, just running on fumes.

I can totally imagine it might be expensive to eat vegan in Europe. However, you can easily eat vegan cheap cheap on the trail, with items that don't have a specifically vegan label. The Lithuanian woman brought potatoes. Genius. Other hikers use Ramen. Then there are the three entrees I outlined above, which are hiking staples (in England, you can even buy much of that in bulk, so you just buy the amount you need). Peanut butter. Fig Newtons. Homemade granola bars. Soy salad. Herbs and bits and pieces to make a cup of nourishing hot soup-ish drink. A handful of croutons to throw on top. Pre-cooked carrots.
It takes pre-planning and creativity, but really, this is typical overnight hiker food, as meat is more difficult to deal with.

Another item that's striking... I can't imagine being vegan and begging for food. Seriously, what do you say? What if someone can give you a piece of cake but it has eggs in it? Do you then say, "No, I can't eat that?"

 

[RickshawFan]

RickshawFan - don’t fancy your menu choices. Could I please take my Lindt truffles instead?!

No! Take them too! They'd be a fab addition! I always had dessert with dinner, oh,and lunch, hey wait a minute, breakfast, too, tea time, elevenses....
However, for the sake of this case, I tried to make those sample entrees vegan. Not for me (my own are way tastier, IMO), but because that's a necessary detail here. I almost added rice crispie snacks for dessert with those sample vegan entrees, but had a feeling they'd be a non-starter with ED and DC.
A whole bag of bagels, stack of corn tortillas with dehydrated black beans, a Moroccan pilaf with couscous, raisins, spices, dried cranberries; instant rice with bits.... None of this is expensive; it's about the same cost as home.

 

[otto]

Covermecagney I’m always keen to know your opinion!

I’ve thought about all the suggested scenarios hypothermia during her sleep, hitchhike gone wrong, suicide, abduction by hunters. Any are possible but I still think the most plausible scenario is she fell, but because they didn’t find her during the initial search I think she’s probably in water. I think her lack of food and relationship problems aren’t the reason she fell but they might have contributed to her not thinking properly on route. So exactly, the question is where, and what makes the most sense to me is that she did a smaller than planned loop to the Port de la Glere by hiking up through Col de la Montagnette and by passed the lac de la Montagnette. This is where I think the accident happened. This area is a route on the maps but it’s supposedly much more quiet which would explain why nobody else seen her and it seems to be out of phone signal range from the dossier so she would never had a chance to tell anyone of her change of route. It’s also described online as hard to see the paths and even dangerous. The lac de la Montagnette looks fairly small but if you look at tagged places on Instagram it’s actually a very big body of water with lots of rocks around the edges which you could easily fall off and these would have been icy in the morning and evening in November. Anyway that’s my bet as to what happened. She simply fell into freezing water on her route, sank and now it’s frozen.

In case you missed this earlier comment, there are 2 routes from the refuge to the Port de Glere. This is the route indicated on the dossier. It does not pass the lake you mention.

link

P13 link

 

[otto]

Here are assumptions I have in my mind - key factors to ED's trek and fate, IMO!

1. ED may be dependent on others for structure, decisions and planning - she went from home to school to a 18 yr. relationship with DC who is structured and practical
2. ED has a very sensitive and empathic soul and, as at least one other has opined, may be a people pleaser - she may even put on airs to meet others' expectations
3. ED has a history of depression, chronic fatigue syndrome and perhaps a borderline eating disorder - alone, without DC for a month, these may have been exacerbated
4. ED and DC may be expert at economics and finances (along the lines of their degrees) but not at nutrition and biology - their vegan diet may lack protein and fat

5. ED is likely well provisioned technically but not biologically to keep her body going, especially not ample food and water back up if she was to get into trouble
6. ED was probably physically depleted by 21/11 after a month of being on her own, hiking up tall peaks, and likely not eating well enough to sustain her body's needs
7. ED likely did not make it back to Banasque or to her van 22/11 - 24/11 because there are no other publicized sightings of her, but there is still a possibility she did
8. ED starts her final solo trek on 21/11, gets to summit of pic de sauvegarde, but turns back and stays at the trail head cabane, possibly because she did not feel well

9. Early to mid afternoon on 22/11, after resting at the cabane perhaps until she felt a bit better, ED tries again to finish her planned trek to "dip into France"
10. On her way back towards the pic de sauvegarde summit, ED encounters the skier and with her body likely pining for nutrition, she asks for fruit or something fresh
11. After that encounter, possibly feeling depleted (her 20 hours of rest may not have helped much if she had nutrition deficiency) she strives to get back to the summit
12. On 22/11 at the summit, ED was likely not in a sound state of mind due to lack of nutrition and/or emotional issues - so her decision making was likely compromised

Given all that, my mind is considering the following routes ED took after her 22/11 DC contact, IMO!:

A. ED decided she could not continue on due to her physical and/or emotional state - her self preservation kicked in and she descended towards Banasque, or
B. ED headed towards the Refuge de Vanesque as she stated to DC, and may or may not have stayed there (the data saying she didn't appears flimsy), and/or
C. ED tried to stay true to her goal of a 'loop' to Port de Glere but because she felt depleted took the shorter route from the Refuge de V towards Lac de la Montagnette

And finally, my mind is considering the following possibilities as to ED's fate on 22/11 or 23/11, IMO!: (note: not sure if this list is in order of probability... maybe)

I. ED took her own life and is at the bottom of Boums de Vanesque or Lac de la Montagnette, or she is hidden away in a forest or cave or some hard to find location
II. ED was abducted from her van or via a hitchhike-gone-bad on her way back to Banasque from the pic de Sauvegarde or Port de Glere trail heads
III. ED fell from the trail into one of those two lakes because of her weakened condition and perhaps due to a fluke event - a collapse, trip, loose shoelace, chamois, etc.
-------------
IV. ED was struck by a car in the dark (in her dark clothes) on the roads back to her van in Banasque from either of those trail heads (Pic de S or Port de Glere)
V. ED voluntarily disappeared but not sighted when in Banasque (or Luchon?) or since she disappeared (used to be my #1, but less likely now given the lapsed time)

I thought this post would be briefer than it turned out, sorry... This is JMO, based on direct data, indirect data, and WS'ers' expertise expressed in Threads #1-3.

One consideration - regarding Esther being dependent on others for structure, decisions and planning, her degree is in Economics and Management, 2001. I suspect she had superior skills in structure, decision making and planning.

I think she fell from the area near the summit into the lake on Nov 22 without reaching the refuge.

 

[RickshawFan]

That's because almost everyone can go 12 hours without refueling (and in many cultures, people do exactly that).

But if you were walking cross country, with elevation gains of 1400-3000 feet (and going back down) each day, you'd find it rather different than just being at work (unless you walk 8-10 miles of mountainous terrain per day at work). Most of us burn around 1700-2400 calories a day, with postal workers burning more like 3500 with all their walking.

Hiking in mountainous terrain gets most people to 4000 calories in a day with 6 hours of walking. 6000+ calories is not unheard of for some through hikers to need daily.

THe fact that it's " no big deal " when our brains start to lack protein (or oxygen) is part of the problem. With both protein starvation and drops in oxygen, the sufferer may simply not notice. But activity in the brain is affected, nevertheless.

One effect of protein malnutrition is that a person does lose their sense of hunger (this is true after about 12 hours of fasting for some people, as well - and almost everyone who fasts regularly has a blunted sense of hunger).

Are you saying that y0u go 24 hours without eating, or is the 12 hours in between breakfast and dinner (because frankly, that's pretty normal and most people's brains would be fine with that). 24 hours without protein though, and study after study shows that while people feel "perfectly fine" their reaction times to various stimuli get slower and their thinking begins to show more errors. IOW, you wouldn't want to take a very hard examination after 24 hours without protein..,

You are sooooo helpful!
I was a vegetarian for years (I'll swear I had enough protein, though), way before it was popular, but I've been told never ever ever to go vegetarian again for the exact reason you say. One day, I was driving and I couldn't interpret traffic lights.
Anyway, I'm testifying to your truth!

Yes, 6000+ calories is common for thru hikers. Even for me, and I'm a slacker.

 

[RickshawFan]

DC spoke of his awareness ED had suffered an accident, though he sounded more sceptical about this than other possibilities IMO. He believed that ED was fit enough and mentally able to manage the terrain without too much difficulty having explored the area himself. Having spent so much time together hiking it does seem his assessment of EDs abilities could be accurate.

Snipped for focus.
The problem is, the dossier's position on "expertise and experience" doesn't account for the fact that this was a solo trip, in November, in a huge area completely empty of other people because of COVID. And ED (and DC) evidently had a history of being dependent on other people during their hiking travels.
DC was in that area at the same time as SAR and they knew he was there: he had backup.

 

[RickshawFan]

Did you ever work out what the total rucksack weight was @RickshawFan? I’m intrigued, as when I last travelled (for 4 months) my total backpack weight was 6kg and my husbands was 8kg. We didn’t need to carry food or camping equipment, but I’m just trying to get a feel of how heavy her bag was in comparison.

I did most of the math; maybe I'll finish it up. I was up at around 23 lbs without food and water. The food bag should have been 8 lbs for 4 days, plus 4 lbs of water to carry most of the time, plus an extra day of food for emergency.... Many items were missing from the dossier list (e.g. socks, toilet paper, the blue tarp ED uses, tent pegs, etc.,) some were given no weight, etc. A UK passport weighs 2.7 oz. That doesn't sound like a lot, but it all adds up alarmingly when you include all the "sundries". Even half a micro-tube of toothpaste and a toothbrush with a sawn-off handle will end up something like 3 oz.

 

[otto]

From a map posted earlier. Esther's route - per the dossier - is the white arrows. The purple arrows, over the Boum de Venasque, are the alternate route not mentioned in the dossier.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/3d-png.280045/

 

[PNW]

That's because almost everyone can go 12 hours without refueling (and in many cultures, people do exactly that).

But if you were walking cross country, with elevation gains of 1400-3000 feet (and going back down) each day, you'd find it rather different than just being at work (unless you walk 8-10 miles of mountainous terrain per day at work). Most of us burn around 1700-2400 calories a day, with postal workers burning more like 3500 with all their walking.

Hiking in mountainous terrain gets most people to 4000 calories in a day with 6 hours of walking. 6000+ calories is not unheard of for some through hikers to need daily.

THe fact that it's " no big deal " when our brains start to lack protein (or oxygen) is part of the problem. With both protein starvation and drops in oxygen, the sufferer may simply not notice. But activity in the brain is affected, nevertheless.

One effect of protein malnutrition is that a person does lose their sense of hunger (this is true after about 12 hours of fasting for some people, as well - and almost everyone who fasts regularly has a blunted sense of hunger).

Are you saying that y0u go 24 hours without eating, or is the 12 hours in between breakfast and dinner (because frankly, that's pretty normal and most people's brains would be fine with that). 24 hours without protein though, and study after study shows that while people feel "perfectly fine" their reaction times to various stimuli get slower and their thinking begins to show more errors. IOW, you wouldn't want to take a very hard examination after 24 hours without protein..,

I only eat dinner, so 24 hrs. If I have time, I’ll snack. Sometimes, sometimes not. Like I said, although my job is physical, I’m not climbing a mountain. I’m not going to keep going back and forth. I feel fine, perhaps you wouldn’t. We don’t know about Esther.

 

[otto]

Per the dossier, no cell service from the summit to the refuge. There is service taking the long route to the Port de Glere.

This is the route in the dossier. Is this the route that she sent to him?

Dossier

 

[otto]

When I first saw this map, I assumed that her partner made it for the dossier, but the map doesn't include the route from the summit to the refuge.

I wondered whether he omitted that section because he did not believe she was there.

However, if this is her map, then she omitted the section from the summit to the refuge. I don't see where the map that she sent him is specifically identified in the dossier, but this is in the Route section.

If this is her map, and is her route from the summit, why is part of the trail missing?

 

[otto]

I wonder whether Esther and her partner still had insurance policies on each other. As professionals, she in Economics and Management, he in Chemistry, joint property expenses, they probably had reciprocal policies. As traveling hippies, did they keep those policies? I doubt the answer is out there, just curious.

It should be noted that French police have ruled out third party involvement.

 

[RedHaus]

Karen Carpenter died of a heart attack at an early age due to excessive dieting (lack of caloric intake and specifically protein - the heart is made of mostly protein and when the body is in protein deficit, it will begin to break down all muscle for the protein - including the heart). That's probably what happened to Jim Fixx as well.

snipped for focus

Thank you @10ofRods - you have brought some tremendous human biology information to this discussion. I want to share a Washington Post article about Jim Fixx as I was not aware of him and his story until your post. It is an incredibly insightful article and there is a section comparing anorexia to obligate running like Jim Fixx did.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...o-death/681bd977-8295-4d4a-802c-bbfd54684be5/

Second, I wonder if you can add some details around why some human bodies are more dependent on protein to function (i.e. the brain) than others? Are there for instance differences predicted by genetics, age, metabolism or differences in the adrenal-cortex system that manages stress and fight / flight responses - could any of these affect caloric requirements from one person to another? From my personal experience I cannot go more than 4-6 hours without a really good dose of protein - without it, I experience a defined loss in cognitive functioning and detrimental mood effects. And I wonder if it is because of my PTSD and highly sensitive adrenal stress responses?

Why does this matter to this sad case? I think from our discussion it is clear we may all have different nutrition requirements for optimal functioning and as 10ofRods has explained to us, despite that there are common denominator requirements for our organisms to function well. That said, I just wonder if we layer on top of ED's fairly apparent lack of adequate nutrition for her hiking efforts, an emotional state that may be going through some extreme stresses those last few days... depleting her more?

Your expertise would be very helpful here!

 

[RedHaus]

When I first saw this map, I assumed that her partner made it for the dossier, but the map doesn't include the route from the summit to the refuge. I wondered whether he omitted that section because he did not believe she was there. However, if this is her map, then she omitted the section from the summit to the refuge. I don't see where the map that she sent him is specifically identified in the dossier, but this is in the Route section. If this is her map, and is her route from the summit, why is part of the trail missing? View attachment 280162

Hi otto. I suspect that was the map that ED sent DC to show her intended route starting 23/11, leaving the Refuge de Vanesque where she said she'd stay 22/11. So I agree with you. Why her entire route for 21-24/11 (her intended trek time period) was not provided - summit, road routes, etc. - may speak to the lack of planning.

The other thought I've had when I see that truncated route drawing is back to the question that we've put to bed - could ED actually have been communicating with DC from the Port to Vanesque on 22/11 and not from the summit as she stated (taking a short cut if you may, perhaps because she was tired, weak, or whatever)? By not including the portion of her trek to the summit in the route she sent DC, she may have been portraying a more accurate picture of her intended route. Just thinking.

And this all may be mute if we think ED did not go towards Hospice de France, but rather towards Col / Lac de la Montignette (the short cut to Port de Glere).

 

[RedHaus]

One consideration - regarding Esther being dependent on others for structure, decisions and planning, her degree is in Economics and Management, 2001. I suspect she had superior skills in structure, decision making and planning. I think she fell from the area near the summit into the lake on Nov 22 without reaching the refuge.

Yes, I agree, the simplistic explanation for ED's disappearance is on 22/11 she fell down the back of pic de Sauvegarde into Boum de Vanesque after she chatted with Dan and before she left the summit. Perhaps she wanted one more cool pic, or perhaps she dropped her phone and instinctively tried to grab for it, perhaps she collapsed....

As for ED's academic training in structure, decision making and planning. I am not sure how much she applied that to her day to day life. I recall distinctly seeing at least one reference by ED in her FB posts (or perhaps a video) stating she hated making decisions. And it appears DC did all their meal prepping from videos, etc. So ED may have been brilliant in her business application of economics management, but I wonder to what degree she translated that to her every day life based on her own words.

Now if I am completely off base with that assumption then she may have very well pulled off a covert voluntary disappearance with those structure and planning skills! That sure teases the outcome I am most hopeful for but more dubious about every day - that she is still alive with a buddy who is helping her stay incognito for a while.

 

[otto]

Hi otto. I suspect that was the map that ED sent DC to show her intended route starting 23/11, leaving the Refuge de Vanesque where she said she'd stay 22/11. So I agree with you. Why her entire route for 21-24/11 (her intended trek time period) was not provided - summit, road routes, etc. - may speak to the lack of planning.

The other thought I've had when I see that truncated route drawing is back to the question that we've put to bed - could ED actually have been communicating with DC from the Port to Vanesque on 22/11 and not from the summit as she stated (taking a short cut if you may, perhaps because she was tired, weak, or whatever)? By not including the portion of her trek to the summit in the route she sent DC, she may have been portraying a more accurate picture of her intended route. Just thinking.

And this all may be mute if we think ED did not go towards Hospice de France, but rather towards Col / Lac de la Montignette (the short cut to Port de Glere).

There is no cell service at the Refuge de Venasque, and no evidence that she stayed there. Esther could not contact anyone from the Refuge. Contact was from the Summit de Sauvegarde. Then there was cell service silence until beyond the refuge on the route indicated on the map. She had to be 30+ minutes into her trek on Nov 23 to get cell service.

The question is whether this is the route that Esther sent, or the route that her partner created. If it is the route that Esther sent, why isn't it labelled as such.

I wonder whether her map includes Pic de Sauvegarde to Refuge de Venasque to Port de la Glere to the Hospice de Benasque, but for some reason it's not included in the dossier. If her map is in the dossier, why isn't it labelled?