Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[Grouse]

I think we need to be careful to judge the poor girl based on the British tabloid press.

Yes I do think some of those articles in the press are contributing to a bit of a general blame culture. Some of the comments on SM and on the tabloid websites are appalling.

 

[otto]

Yes, it was my post you responded to. My reaction was also based on blog entries of Esther’s as well as media coverage. This repeated dependency on “the kindness of others” seems to me to be a strange concept...but in wilderness situations, where food equates in some cases to survival, it’s dangerous to both parties. IMO of course.

Esther seemed, in my opinion, to view it though as confirmation of how good people were...like a test that humanity was passing. Like she was offering strangers the opportunity to show their virtue, their generosity.

I’ve tried since then to consider a second explanation...that perhaps her repeated extensions away from home are stretching the budget, or expenses are being cited in order to convince to come home. But, I must admit, if the witness is being quoted correctly and Esther’s response is a truthful one, I do still think carrying insufficient food and depending on the kindness of others to carry more weight...so that you can carry less...is a selfish concept...as well as a foolish and dangerous one.

What stands out is that even though we know very little about Esther, we know from two people who spoke with her in the last weeks prior to her disappearance that she asked for, or needed, food. It's not something that we hear about back country hikers, so it does raise questions about personal issues ranging from finances to food. In relation to her overall wellbeing and state of mind, it does give the impression that perhaps she was unprepared for her hike. For example, if she was merely lost and not injured for several days, the lack of food would have been dangerous.

"Ms Adomaityte, who was born in Lithuania but is fluent in Spanish and knows the Pyrenees well, added: 'The one thing that did surprise me about Esther was how little food she took with her on the last hike we did together.

'We left on the afternoon of November 12 and returned the following day around midday.

'Esther only took dried oats, a red pepper and a small lettuce. I ended up sharing the food I'd taken for myself when we reached a refuge for the night called Refugio de Pescadores, which included a can of tuna and potatoes we heated up in the evening and an apple the following morning."
​

Missing hiker Esther Dingley had love life problems says witness as British police called in to help | Daily Mail Online

 

[stmarysmead]

Yes I do think some of those articles in the press are contributing to a bit of a general blame culture. Some of the comments on SM and on the tabloid websites are appalling.

But isn’t part of why we are interested in this case, not just curiosity, but compassion? As Morgan Harrington’s devastated family called it...an effort to “Save the Next Girl.”

Sometimes that sounds like blame, but I don’t believe it is. We can honor all the wonderful aspects of a unique human being, and still admit human mistakes (we ALL make them) that led to their tragic loss.

 

[otto]

But isn’t part of why we are interested in this case, not just curiosity, but compassion? As Morgan Harrington’s devastated family called it...an effort to “Save the Next Girl.”

Sometimes that sounds like blame, but I don’t believe it is. We can honor all the wonderful aspects of a unique human being, and still admit human mistakes (we ALL make them) that led to their tragic loss.

Absolutely! Hopefully she isn't found somewhere off-trail curled up with no food. There's no point in taking two headlamps, batteries and other nice to have equipment if there isn't enough food.

 

[otto]

Over the weekend in Western Canada, there were two backcountry mishaps. An ice climber fell and required a high risk rescue and air transport to hospital, and a snow mobiler ran into trouble but built a snow cave. Including the snow shoe-er who got lost and ended up in a steep drainage area, that's three in one week. The general discussion is around people who want to take risks and make a mistake that costs them their lives or their health.

 

[Ruthbullock]

FATMAP | Discover a world of adventure...
This is a really good 3D model of the topography of the walking route - only downside is the bit we could do with seeing clearly the bit over the passage to the lacs is sadly in shadow
ETA: sorry was hoping it would link to the refuge and lakes, not just the general whole world

 

[Grouse]

But isn’t part of why we are interested in this case, not just curiosity, but compassion? As Morgan Harrington’s devastated family called it...an effort to “Save the Next Girl.”

Sometimes that sounds like blame, but I don’t believe it is. We can honor all the wonderful aspects of a unique human being, and still admit human mistakes (we ALL make them) that led to their tragic loss.

Oh absolutely. I just think there needs to be some restraint at times as the UK tabloids love to stir it up. For example the Daily Mail (I think it was the Mail?) published the article about ED querying the price of some seeds in a shop (I imagine they offered to pay local shops for any cctv footage that could be found - they do offer to pay for video on their website), and some people started assuming that meant she was not eating properly because she was broke. When in fact it is quite normal to query prices like that for many folk on a budget, and she did still buy the seeds at the non-reduced price.

 

[otto]

FATMAP | Discover a world of adventure...
This is a really good 3D model of the topography of the walking route - only downside is the bit we could do with seeing clearly the bit over the passage to the lacs is sadly in shadow
ETA: sorry was hoping it would link to the refuge and lakes, not just the general whole world

If you have an image that you want lightened, I can do it quickly and easily with photoshop. This image is from Google Earth

Google Earth

 

[Grouse]

If you have an image that you want lightened, I can do it quickly and easily with photoshop. This image is from Google Earth

View attachment 279935

Google Earth

Actually that water looks so clear it makes me wonder now if they were able to search the lakes from the air when they had the helicopters out.

 

[RickshawFan]

But isn’t part of why we are interested in this case, not just curiosity, but compassion? As Morgan Harrington’s devastated family called it...an effort to “Save the Next Girl.”

Sometimes that sounds like blame, but I don’t believe it is. We can honor all the wonderful aspects of a unique human being, and still admit human mistakes (we ALL make them) that led to their tragic loss.

This ^^^^^.

I also want to reiterate the point I made upthread regarding Pole 2. These are thoughts, though, and open to disagreement!

IMO everyone at some time or other is at Pole 2, even generally low risk-takers. It's an aspect of the human condition. I'm thinking especially of times of grief, despair, neglect, pain.

Here's an example that maybe everyone can relate to where a Pole 1-ish person in the moment lands squarely in Pole 2.
Years ago I was in a not-so-big plane. On that particular day, my life felt like it was going to hell, haywire, complicated, impossible, way out of my league. Well, what ho, the plane had trouble landing. "Wind shear", the pilot said. "We'll go around and try again." Not just once again, as it turns out, but two repeats.
Very currently (within the month), a large jet (maybe Delta at Logan?) had experienced the same wind condition, and there were no survivors.
So, this was not looking good AT ALL.
Like everyone else on the plane, I'm quite confident that I became white as a sheet. Despite my terror, I fervently wanted the plane to crash. In that moment, going up in a fireball because of some weather episode seemed a very satisfactory way out of my troubles. A blessing in disguise.
So, while I'm sure my fellow passengers largely remained in Pole 1 and were probably praying hard for survival, I was far out on Pole 2, and thinking, "Cool! Perfect timing! Yes, please, by all means CRASH!"
[The pilot finally gave up and took us to a tiny airport out in the tulies, so I didn't get to go up in a fireball.]

I want to be clear this isn't about a suicidal gesture—I fear our conversation has somewhat gone in that direction, and I'm not at all qualified to speak on that topic—it's more about yielding to the universe with the thought it might take you out of your misery. You might even (as I didn't) choose the setting for all this to transpire.

It's these features of Pole 2 that I believe are in play for ED in the second half of November.

I hope that clears up some of my thoughts.

 

[RickshawFan]

Actually that water looks so clear it makes me wonder now if they were able to search the lakes from the air when they had the helicopters out.

That's what I think, too. You can see the bottom of the lakes from the top of the Pic. A drone would have seen something. That's been a reason for me to rule out a fall into a lake in that general area.
I will say, though, that over by the cliffs the water seems much deeper, and that would be one of the more obvious places to fall.

 

[Hatty]

Yes I do think some of those articles in the press are contributing to a bit of a general blame culture. Some of the comments on SM and on the tabloid websites are appalling.

Yes, IMPE local reports of cases are taken up by the national tabloids and the truth is skewed to create interest and to sensationalise. It’s made me spit feathers I can assure you. So unfair on relatives.

 

[RickshawFan]

Over the weekend in Western Canada, there were two backcountry mishaps. An ice climber fell and required a high risk rescue and air transport to hospital, and a snow mobiler ran into trouble but built a snow cave. Including the snow shoe-er who got lost and ended up in a steep drainage area, that's three in one week. The general discussion is around people who want to take risks and make a mistake that costs them their lives or their health.

Yes, this.

 

[Hatty]

Absolutely! Hopefully she isn't found somewhere off-trail curled up with no food. There's no point in taking two headlamps, batteries and other nice to have equipment if there isn't enough food.

I’m sure we would all be happy if she turned up selling ice creams on the beach in Brighton! I’m not being flippant - just hoping, unrealistically I’m afraid, that there’s the tiniest chance she has voluntarily disappeared because at least she’d be alive.

 

[otto]

Actually that water looks so clear it makes me wonder now if they were able to search the lakes from the air when they had the helicopters out.

The water is 45 m deep. It's impossible to see to the bottom. It's more likely the surface of the water will provide a reflection of the clouds.

 

[Hatty]

FATMAP | Discover a world of adventure...
This is a really good 3D model of the topography of the walking route - only downside is the bit we could do with seeing clearly the bit over the passage to the lacs is sadly in shadow
ETA: sorry was hoping it would link to the refuge and lakes, not just the general whole world

Something went horribly wrong for me when I clicked - ended up in Botswana!

 

[Hatty]

Oh absolutely. I just think there needs to be some restraint at times as the UK tabloids love to stir it up. For example the Daily Mail (I think it was the Mail?) published the article about ED querying the price of some seeds in a shop (I imagine they offered to pay local shops for any cctv footage that could be found - they do offer to pay for video on their website), and some people started assuming that meant she was not eating properly because she was broke. When in fact it is quite normal to query prices like that for many folk on a budget, and she did still buy the seeds at the non-reduced price.

There are those who call it the Daily Fail Grouse ...

 

[Grouse]

There are those who call it the Daily Fail Grouse ...

I know, I'm usually one of them but I was trying to use "some restraint"

 

[Hatty]

I know, I'm usually one of them but I was trying to use "some restraint"

I admire your restraint! I’m proper teasy about it today. Think I’ll take a break.

 

[otto]

It's easy to forget that this is a 1600 ft fall (slide, roll and bounce) from near the summit to the lake.

Google Earth