Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #5

[Grouse]

I think so too - clockwise, rather than counter clockwise. Everything falls into place. No evidence that she was at Refuge de Venasque because she didn't make it that far. No communication the following morning because she wasn't in the vicinity of the wifi near the refuge. She was not foolishly hiking from the Summit to Refuge de Venasque in the shadow of the mountain at dusk.

After climbing the Pic de Sauvegarde, she remained overnight in Spain. The following day she hiked to Port de la Glere. Shortly after entering France she ran into trouble. Searches started 5 days later, snow and cloud were in the area where her body was found on the 6th day (per the dossier).

Just going literally off what we have, based solely on the selected messages, it definitely seems a plausible theory and could explain the radio silence on 23rd if say she spent a second night at La Besurtas, where we know she had no signal.

 

[otto]

Loving this post.
Yes, "tough woman" is full of experienced insights. She also was in the mountains a month before ED, so all the difficulties she cites would have been considerably magnified in late November.
Good to know about the vultures. That must have been fascinating.
The hair might have been caught under a rock, after the skull blew there or something.

I'm wondering whether she was wearing a hat or a scarf tied around her head that kept her hair in place.

 

[otto]

Just going literally off what we have, based solely on the selected messages, it definitely seems a plausible theory and could explain the radio silence on 23rd if say she spent a second night at La Besurtas, where we know she had no signal.

Everything fits if we take Esther's words at face value. We know that Dan wants to believe that Esther was too experienced to run into difficulties alone in the mountains. It gives him hope to believe that she was abducted. It was difficult for us to believe that she ran into difficulties as well based on Dan's route - barring suicide or a fluke accident near the Port de Venasque.

If we reverse the route, and listen to Esther's words, and the words from the Keeper of the Refuge de Venasque, everything changes. Shortly after passing the Port de la Glere, she would have faced a steep, slippery, wind-gusting trail.

Based on the assertion that she was out of the sight until recently, I'm inclined to believe that she slipped, tumbled, was injured and sought protection from the weather. It was probably already too late when the searches began.

Hopefully her equipment will be found, and perhaps there's a message on her phone.

 

[RickshawFan]

Although they were discovered at an altitude covered by snow for a good part of the winter, these bones were not there a few weeks ago.

Snipped for focus.
Whose statement is this? If it's an official SAR/LE statement, I think we can trust it. Otherwise, it's someone just saying whatever: there's no way to know if something was not there before when we're talking about mountains, rugged terrain, weather..
Have you ever hiked in a dinosaur quarry and thought, "I don't see any bones, what are they talking about?" A bit later, you start to see bones everywhere. You might even say to yourself: "Dinosaur bones look like that? I didn't realize!" And it might be something ridiculously obvious that you didn't take in, like how HUGE dinosaur bones are. Yep, you couldn't see them because you didn't have an accurate picture of how they'd appear, even though you're looking right at them. This actually happened to me in Dinosaur National Monument. There I am eye to bone with a femur as long as I'm tall.
Sometimes this will happen because you have no experience looking for them. Sometimes it will be because you don't actually know what to look for, although you might think you do.

Perception is not reliable. SAR's professional ground search with a specific protocol, that's where we can expect reliability.

IMO anything that has to do with remains or SAR should come from a verifiable source. The only verifiable source we have is LE.

 

[RickshawFan]

Satellite trackers, like SPOT devices run about $200-$350 and require a subscription. In the US you can rent them.

I think the emphasis on lightweight makes one turn to their phone for the GPS and map information, rather than go through the expense and weight of carrying another device. And some people feel like it somehow diminishes the adventure ( !) .

When you have success in prior trips, it can be hard to yourself justify carrying more weight and "overcautious" gear. You really should prepare for what could be the worst conditions on the trip. She was more prepared for a late autumn hike from shelter to shelter.

We have some now that don't require a subscription, and they're tiny. I want one! It weighs 4 oz and works worldwide. IIRC they are one-time use only.
ACR Electronics rescueME PLB1 Personal Locator Beacon | REI Co-op

 

[otto]

Snipped for focus.
Whose statement is this? If it's an official SAR/LE statement, I think we can trust it. Otherwise, it's someone just saying whatever: there's no way to know if something was not there before when we're talking about mountains, rugged terrain, weather..
Have you ever hiked in a dinosaur quarry and thought, "I don't see any bones, what are they talking about?" A bit later, you start to see bones everywhere. You might even say to yourself: "Dinosaur bones look like that? I didn't realize!" And it might be something ridiculously obvious that you didn't take in, like how HUGE dinosaur bones are. Yep, you couldn't see them because you didn't have an accurate picture of how they'd appear, even though you're looking right at them. This actually happened to me in Dinosaur National Monument. There I am eye to bone with a femur as long as I'm tall.
Sometimes this will happen because you have no experience looking for them. Sometimes it will be because you don't actually know what to look for, although you might think you do.

Perception is not reliable. SAR's professional ground search with a specific protocol, that's where we can expect reliability.

IMO anything that has to do with remains or SAR should come from a verifiable source. The only verifiable source we have is LE.

In the link provided by ZaZara, this is the full statement, indicating that the statement is from an official source.

"If they were discovered at an altitude covered by snow much of the winter, these bones were not there a few weeks ago . According to the first elements of the investigation, they stayed "certainly in a cavity", and were undoubtedly "recently moved by animals".

"Everything suggests that these are bones recently moved by animals".
~ Jean-Marc Bordinaro, Second in command of the Saint-Gaudens gendarmerie company"
​

Disparition d'Esther Dingley : des os a priori humains, déplacés par des animaux, retrouvés dans les Pyrénées | Actu Toulouse

 

[Hatty]

Another article..

Wild animals moved human remains linked to missing British hiker Esther Dingley, police believe | Daily Mail Online

 

[ZaZara]

Snipped for focus.
Whose statement is this? If it's an official SAR/LE statement, I think we can trust it. Otherwise, it's someone just saying whatever: there's no way to know if something was not there before when we're talking about mountains, rugged terrain, weather..
Have you ever hiked in a dinosaur quarry and thought, "I don't see any bones, what are they talking about?" A bit later, you start to see bones everywhere. You might even say to yourself: "Dinosaur bones look like that? I didn't realize!" And it might be something ridiculously obvious that you didn't take in, like how HUGE dinosaur bones are. Yep, you couldn't see them because you didn't have an accurate picture of how they'd appear, even though you're looking right at them. This actually happened to me in Dinosaur National Monument. There I am eye to bone with a femur as long as I'm tall.
Sometimes this will happen because you have no experience looking for them. Sometimes it will be because you don't actually know what to look for, although you might think you do.

Perception is not reliable. SAR's professional ground search with a specific protocol, that's where we can expect reliability.

IMO anything that has to do with remains or SAR should come from a verifiable source. The only verifiable source we have is LE.

I am probably missing your point.

Per the article, the statements were made by Jean-Marc Bordinaro, second in command of the Gendarmerie of Saint-Gaudens (of which the Brigade of Bagnères de Luchon is a part).

 

[otto]

Another article..

Wild animals moved human remains linked to missing British hiker Esther Dingley, police believe | Daily Mail Online

It's funny to read that article. It's almost a summary of the links that have been posted here in the last 24 hours.

There's a bit of embellishment in claiming that the skull was found on the trail - which is a bit over the top.

 

[Herat]

We have some now that don't require a subscription, and they're tiny. I want one! It weighs 4 oz and works worldwide. IIRC they are one-time use only.
ACR Electronics rescueME PLB1 Personal Locator Beacon | REI Co-op

Me too

But the trouble with this is that you have to be able to activate it by hand. So it has to be worn on you - like around your neck or in a pocket and you have to be able to flip it open. It won't work if you slip, hit your head and become unconscious, or it you are carrying it in your pack and you are hurt away from your pack.

I prefer the SPOT - like tracker that notes your location so someone who you are sending signals to can see you haven't moved for some time and can see your exact location without you having to set it off (although you certainly can have it act as a PRB)

 

[Satchie]

So true about the shoes. I’ve just looked at her last FB posts on the Esther and Dan page. They look wholly inadequate for mountain hiking. No ankle support at all by the looks of it. She must have been banking on good weather conditions and if she encountered snow, I can’t see them being sufficiently robust.

People are going with lighter shoes these days, I just saw a woman coming out from a 4 day backpacking trip wearing toe shoes. IMO Esther was just following trails on a 2 night trip, not going up sides of mountains with helmet and rope, and her footware was what most people as experienced as she was would choose.

She may have gotten hurt, but IMO she wasn't deviating from the behaviour or equipment of her peers.

ETA can't seem to get the audio to work, anyway, those are the shoes of a hiking guru

 

[otto]

If I had to hazard a guess, I would suggest that this is where she ran into trouble - right at the border. There are two routes: switchbacks in red, straight down in yellow. Both may have been treacherous in Winter conditions, but it's also possible that the switchbacks were obscured in the Winter.

Géoportail

 

[otto]

Google Earth maps of the area. Red arrow indicates 2200 meters.

Google Earth

 

[otto]

The two trail options entering France. Red is the switchbacks, yellow is straight down

Google Earth

 

[otto]

Speaks for itself - where she entered France (assuming the route was Porte de la Glere, dip into France, overnight at Refuge de Venasque), where she was found.

 

[otto]

Another news report with Esther's route, clockwise, opposite of the route implied later.

"Esther set out to hike alone from the Porte de la Glere to the Port de Venasque, a trek which follows the border between France and Spain, a month ago, the Mirror reports.

She started walking from Benasque, Spain, on November 21 and was planning to spend the night of November 22 at Refuge de Venasque in France.
​

11/30/2020
Everything we know after hiker from Durham goes missing in Pyrenees mountains

 

[otto]

Curious about what other hikers say about Port de la Glere ...

"Back enroute I could see the Port de la Glere, the pass I ascended to return over to the Spanish side of the Pyrenees last year. That ascent culminated in a very steep snowfield above a huge vertical drop. It was a case of move a foot, kick a step, move a walking pole and plunge it into the snow, then repeat with my other foot and walking pole zigzagging up the fifty plus degree slope. It was the scariest thing I'd ever done ! (1st photo shows the pass and snowfield, the lowest point on right of the 2 lowest points on the horizon)."

​

Sauntering with Terry Griffiths: June 2015

 

[otto]

I'm very curious about the man that Esther met on Nov 19 who recommended this route. Had he recently done the route? Did he mention it as a route that would truly challenge her? Had he done the route in better weather? It is a route that we now know very likely took her life. I'm curious about how he would describe that conversation.

"An individual that Esther met on 19th November came forward to say he had specifically suggested this route through France, between Port de Venasque and Port de la Glere, to Esther when he met her. There is no reason to think that Esther did not stick to this plan."
​

p. 8
https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf

 

[RickshawFan]

In the link provided by ZaZara, this is the full statement, indicating that the statement is from an official source.

"If they were discovered at an altitude covered by snow much of the winter, these bones were not there a few weeks ago . According to the first elements of the investigation, they stayed "certainly in a cavity", and were undoubtedly "recently moved by animals".

"Everything suggests that these are bones recently moved by animals".
~ Jean-Marc Bordinaro, Second in command of the Saint-Gaudens gendarmerie company"
​

Disparition d'Esther Dingley : des os a priori humains, déplacés par des animaux, retrouvés dans les Pyrénées | Actu Toulouse

As I understand that quote, it simply means they didn’t see the remains likely ‘cos they were under snow. It doesn’t mean the ground was bare a few weeks ago, and the bones weren’t there. He adds that they were also likely moved.

 

[Satchie]

Another news report with Esther's route, clockwise, opposite of the route implied later.

"Esther set out to hike alone from the Porte de la Glere to the Port de Venasque, a trek which follows the border between France and Spain, a month ago, the Mirror reports.

She started walking from Benasque, Spain, on November 21 and was planning to spend the night of November 22 at Refuge de Venasque in France.
​

11/30/2020
Everything we know after hiker from Durham goes missing in Pyrenees mountains

Just to repeat what I tried to explain in Thread 1, the tabloids all got this wrong, the DM even created and published false maps showing a nonexistent hiking trail along the French/Spanish border. I assume somebody saw the border on a map and believed it was a trail. All the other tabloids copied the DM.

Her route was quite clearly spelled out in the dossier, why would anyone believe the tabloids instead of the dossier?