Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #6

[ZaZara]

Snipped for focus
This is a very unusual thing to do in the case of a "missing hiker found deceased".SAR resources are not allocated this way (Spain LE/SAR even hinted that they were beyond protocol and were obliged to move on) , and French LE has already taken a public whipping. The find was in France, and France has jurisdiction.
IMO in general, LE makes asset choices in terms of likelihood. SAR also by statistics and experience. It's very rare to frame a mountain misadventure as a potential criminal event.

I am not sure I understand what you are getting at.

France has rule of law, and French LE and the Gendarmerie are bound by rules and regulations.

The part of the skull that was found, has been examined by the forensic laboratory in Toulouse for DNA.
Next, to the best of my knowledge, the part will be examined by another forensic laboratory near Paris. Forensic experts will aim to find out as much as they can about this part of the skull and the hair. 3D X-rays. Traces. Scratches. Ridges. Anything.

One of the pressing questions to be answered will no doubt be how this piece became separated from the skull.

If for instance the investigators find traces of what they believe is a chainsaw, no doubt a criminal investigation will follow.

If on the other hand, traces are found that indicate that the piece broke off when the entire skull was dropped from a great height, this will confirm the initial impression that animals / vultures were involved.

If no signs of a criminal act are found on this piece of skull, the investigators still cannot rule that out, and they will dutifully answer: No we can't rule out a criminal act, every time they are asked by the press.

Doesn't mean they think it is likely though.

Personally, I find it morbid how certain British news outlets are pushing this criminal scenario, making it much bigger than simply the (very understandable) opinion of Dan. Whatever happened is bad enough as it is. Leave it there and wait what the investigation brings IMO.

 

[Steve13]

I am not sure I understand what you are getting at.

France has rule of law, and French LE and the Gendarmerie are bound by rules and regulations.

The part of the skull that was found, has been examined by the forensic laboratory in Toulouse for DNA.
Next, to the best of my knowledge, the part will be examined by another forensic laboratory near Paris. Forensic experts will aim to find out as much as they can about this part of the skull and the hair. 3D X-rays. Traces. Scratches. Ridges. Anything.

One of the pressing questions to be answered will no doubt be how this piece became separated from the skull.

If for instance the investigators find traces of what they believe is a chainsaw, no doubt a criminal investigation will follow.

If on the other hand, traces are found that indicate that the piece broke off when the entire skull was dropped from a great height, this will confirm the initial impression that animals / vultures were involved.

If no signs of a criminal act are found on this piece of skull, the investigators still cannot rule that out, and they will dutifully answer: No we can't rule out a criminal act, every time they are asked by the press.

Doesn't mean they think it is likely though.

Personally, I find it morbid how certain British news outlets are pushing this criminal scenario, making it much bigger than simply the (very understandable) opinion of Dan. Whatever happened is bad enough as it is. Leave it there and wait what the investigation brings IMO.

It seems a lot more than a forensic analysis. Cops, prosecutors, patrols on the ground, many questions unanswered. This is a police inquiry now; that's why the media are begging it up I think.

 

[OEJ-JEO]

It seems a lot more than a forensic analysis. Cops, prosecutors, patrols on the ground, many questions unanswered. This is a police inquiry now; that's why the media are begging it up I think.

Whenever human remains are found, there are protocols to follow. It's the responsibility of the authorities to establish the identity of the deceased, and the cause and circumstances of death.

This is a police matter because human remains have been found. DNA analysis has confirmed that the remains found are those of ED. It's perfectly normal that the Gendarmerie is involved in attempting to locate the rest of her remains and her belongings in order to establish the facts of her death as far as that may be possible. None of this implies that they suspect foul play.

 

[otto]

It seems a lot more than a forensic analysis. Cops, prosecutors, patrols on the ground, many questions unanswered. This is a police inquiry now; that's why the media are begging it up I think.

Occam's razor suggests that: when a woman embarks on a 3-4 day solo hike to the peaks of the Pyrenees mere days before the Winter snow prevents anyone from searching the area, and a portion of her skull is found 8 months later amongst animal bones at an elevation of 2200 meters, it's probably a hiking accident.

 

[otto]

Some stats about hiking rescues and trauma:

https://www.petzl.com/fondation/foundation-accidentologie-livret_EN.pdf

 

[otto]

Interview with a retired member of the French mountain rescue team. It's obvious that mountain accidents are very common in France.

"In France the mountain rescue teams are either part of the PGHM branch of the Gendarmes or the CRS branch of the Police. We usually work alternate weeks.

Since 1958, 60 police have died in the mountains, with around the same number for gendarmes. ...

The mountains are dangerous because we cannot master all the factors and have to adapt continuously to the conditions.

We might start out in good weather, but then fog comes down, and we have to continue, but change tactics to cope with the poor visibility. It might snow all of a sudden. You cannot easily give up when you are on a rescue mission, so we also go a bit beyond the limits, a bit faster and so it can lead to accidents. ...

Also many of our accidents are the everyday type like a twisted ankle or someone getting lost, but become serious because they happen in a hostile environment. Often they are on the lower slopes and not in the high mountains. ...

In my department we went out on average 300 times a year, with around the same number for the gendarmes."
​

16 March 2021
Meet the mountain rescuer who spent 30 years on the Pyrenees

 

[Grouse]

Personally, I find it morbid how certain British news outlets are pushing this criminal scenario, making it much bigger than simply the (very understandable) opinion of Dan. Whatever happened is bad enough as it is. Leave it there and wait what the investigation brings IMO.

I agree, sadly it's what they do - especially the tabloids - big it up to attract readers. They don't care what the collateral damage is IMO. It's even worse now with newspapers being online, and you get all the comments sections below an article filled with vile trolls posting.

 

[otto]

If someone had been hiking with Esther, I don't think there would be any mystery about the location of her equipment, or where she fell. It is only because she was alone, and her route was unclear, that her disappearance has to be further investigated.

"Mountain rescue services had to intervene on numerous occasions over the weekend for accidents in the Pyrenees, including three fatalities. Saturday morning, a mountaineer in his thirties lost his life when he fell 40 meters, at the level of the small Pic du Midi d'Ossau, in the Pyrénées-Atlantiques.

The next day, the CRS in the mountains of Gavarnie intervened at midday in the Lahude sector, near Barèges.

"A Parisian hiker lost his balance on a path, at the level of a steep grassy slope, he slipped over 200 m and was never able to stop", explains Sébastien Abbadie, the head of the CRS in Mountain. ...

Throughout the weekend, while the heat was intense, interventions multiplied, including nine by helicopter in the departments of Hautes-Pyrénées and Haute-Garonne on Sunday. ...

At the end of the day, on Sunday, members of the CRS were called to try to locate from the air a hiker who got lost while trying to geolocate his cell phone. It was the gendarmes of the high mountain platoon who found the lifeless body of the 68-year-old man who fell."
​

7/12/2021
Three hikers died over the weekend in the Pyrenees | tellerreport.com

 

[RickshawFan]

I'd say the final climb at Angels Landing at Zion is a lot more dangerous than anything in this area.

When I cited the link to the Angels Landing fall, it wasn't about whether the trail was comparable or not, conditions, experience, any of that. The purpose was to look at how LE responds to accidents on cliffs. They don't investigate them, generally speaking, as any kind of potential criminal event unless they have information that may point in that direction.

There are certainly cliffs in the area where ED went missing. And on that scree slope? If you're falling, you're done for; there's no way you can stop.

 

[Grouse]

Whenever human remains are found, there are protocols to follow. It's the responsibility of the authorities to establish the identity of the deceased, and the cause and circumstances of death.

This is a police matter because human remains have been found. DNA analysis has confirmed that the remains found are those of ED. It's perfectly normal that the Gendarmerie is involved in attempting to locate the rest of her remains and her belongings in order to establish the facts of her death as far as that may be possible. None of this implies that they suspect foul play.

Absolutely! Any case of a missing hiker where remains are found would have checks to eliminate foul play. This hasn't just suddenly become a criminal enquiry.

Even in a case like Geraldine Largay, who was eventually found in the forest off the Appalachian Trail two years after going missing with a journal she had kept and a note to whoever found her, they still went through a process of investigation to rule out foul play.

 

[RickshawFan]

Whenever human remains are found, there are protocols to follow. It's the responsibility of the authorities to establish the identity of the deceased, and the cause and circumstances of death.

This is a police matter because human remains have been found. DNA analysis has confirmed that the remains found are those of ED. It's perfectly normal that the Gendarmerie is involved in attempting to locate the rest of her remains and her belongings in order to establish the facts of her death as far as that may be possible. None of this implies that they suspect foul play.

Could you maybe cite some French examples where LE has pursued a criminal inquiry in a "missing hiker found deceased" case without a tip that a crime might have taken place? Where LE/SAR kept trying trying trying to find the remainder of the remains of someone who has been "missing found deceased" in the mountains? In the Pyrenees? At the very start, LE made clear that they don't search interminably: it's not in the nature of mountains to make known where the dead are.
Backcountry and mountains are not the same as front country when it comes to protocol.

 

[RickshawFan]

I agree, sadly it's what they do - especially the tabloids - big it up to attract readers. They don't care what the collateral damage is IMO. It's even worse now with newspapers being online, and you get all the comments sections below an article filled with vile trolls posting.

While it might be true that tabloids entice readers with dramatic stories, the idea that a criminal event took ED away began with DC last fall AFAIK after his searches turned up no sign of ED and he was fairly insistent a crime must be involved. I think we can't blame the tabloids for wanting to profit off the click bait that a key player insisted on; that's their raison d'être.

 

[RickshawFan]

Absolutely! Any case of a missing hiker where remains are found would have checks to eliminate foul play. This hasn't just suddenly become a criminal enquiry.

Even in a case like Geraldine Largay, who was eventually found in the forest off the Appalachian Trail two years after going missing with a journal she had kept and a note to whoever found her, they still went through a process of investigation to rule out foul play.

Source for the foul play investigation? The journal made the reason clear. There was no LE investigation AFAIK. Maybe a cause of death, but that's the coroner or medical examiner, and not a criminal inquiry. But the cause of death was also in her notes. She starved to death.
But also note, LE/SAR didn't continue the search for Largay until they found her. They did what their resources and statistics would allow. After a point, they stopped looking. Some random person happened on Largay's remains.
In ED's case, LE hasn't stopped. That's the point here.

 

[RickshawFan]

Interview with a retired member of the French mountain rescue team. It's obvious that mountain accidents are very common in France.

"In France the mountain rescue teams are either part of the PGHM branch of the Gendarmes or the CRS branch of the Police. We usually work alternate weeks.

Since 1958, 60 police have died in the mountains, with around the same number for gendarmes. ...

The mountains are dangerous because we cannot master all the factors and have to adapt continuously to the conditions.

We might start out in good weather, but then fog comes down, and we have to continue, but change tactics to cope with the poor visibility. It might snow all of a sudden. You cannot easily give up when you are on a rescue mission, so we also go a bit beyond the limits, a bit faster and so it can lead to accidents. ...

Also many of our accidents are the everyday type like a twisted ankle or someone getting lost, but become serious because they happen in a hostile environment. Often they are on the lower slopes and not in the high mountains. ...

In my department we went out on average 300 times a year, with around the same number for the gendarmes."
​

16 March 2021
Meet the mountain rescuer who spent 30 years on the Pyrenees

Thanks, Otto. I was trying to figure out where I'd seen that info earlier in the year. That's an astonishing number of rescues...600 forays a year.

 

[otto]

Could you maybe cite some French examples where LE has pursued a criminal inquiry in a "missing hiker found deceased" case without a tip that a crime might have taken place? Where LE/SAR kept trying trying trying to find the remainder of the remains of someone who has been "missing found deceased" in the mountains? In the Pyrenees? At the very start, LE made clear that they don't search interminably: it's not in the nature of mountains to make known where the dead are.
Backcountry and mountains are not the same as front country when it comes to protocol.

I suspect that disappearances remain open investigations until the missing hiker is found. In Esther's case, she hasn't been entirely found yet.

"Taking just fatal accidents into account, falling, often as a result of a slip, remains by the far the most common unwanted event {104}, far outstripping other situations. In terms of contributing factors, two appear to be over-represented: hiking off-trail and, to a lesser extent, hiking alone {11}. Combining the two, i.e. hiking alone off-trail (which can include simply taking a shortcut from a trail route) is therefore particularly hazardous.

Without limiting his study to fatal accidents, Haran Larre (2011) found that falls are responsible for more than four out of five hiking accidents. His study also identifies another key contributing factor: unsuitable footwear (involved in 42% of cases). He makes the credible suggestion that the lack of good quality non-slip soles, a common trait among bottom range footwear models, causes such falls. FFME license-holders reporting an incident also mainly suffer slips and falls. Detailed analysis of these incident declarations reveals that many occur on wet ground and, to a lesser extent, in icy or snowy areas (snow patches). Tripping up is also mentioned frequently, along with traumatic movements resulting in sprains {15}."

​

https://www.petzl.com/fondation/foundation-accidentologie-livret_EN.pdf

 

[Grouse]

Source for the foul play investigation? The journal made the reason clear. There was no LE investigation AFAIK. Maybe a cause of death, but that's the coroner or medical examiner, and not a criminal inquiry. But the cause of death was also in her notes. She starved to death.

BBM "I would say at this point we do not see any foul play. But that is pending the results from the medical examiner and that could change if they found something." --> Wardens don’t suspect foul play in Geraldine Largay’s death

Also worth noting that after all that time in the Appalachian forest her tent, her paper journal, and much of her other kit was still there. Posts on this thread about almost entire rucksacks being eaten by animals are rather fanciful IMO.

ETA: yes medical examiner but it was still considered before being ruled out.

 

[RickshawFan]

Absolutely! Any case of a missing hiker where remains are found would have checks to eliminate foul play. This hasn't just suddenly become a criminal enquiry.

Snipped for focus

Could you maybe cite some sources and examples?

 

[Grouse]

Snipped for focus

Could you maybe cite some sources and examples?

Just did - Geraldine Largay

 

[RickshawFan]

BBM "I would say at this point we do not see any foul play. But that is pending the results from the medical examiner and that could change if they found something." --> Wardens don’t suspect foul play in Geraldine Largay’s death

Also worth noting that after all that time in the Appalachian forest her tent, her paper journal, and much of her other kit was still there. Posts on this thread about entire rucksacks being eaten by animals are rather fanciful IMO MOO JMO.

The medical examiner is same as a coroner. Everyone gets a death certificate, even my Dad who died at home at 98. This is not a criminal inquiry (note, they "don't suspect foul play"), and it didn't come from a position where a criminal inquiry would be likely.

IMO the Largay case is a very poor comparator on this topic. In the area where Largay was found, snow covers the ground for many months of the year. Her tent wasn't in a place where it could blow away. It's unclear what all was left of her stuff, if she kept her notes in a hard plastic bottle, etc. I've seen abandoned tents on the AT, evidently ransacked by animals. It's a lot of shreds plus tent poles.

 

[RickshawFan]

Just did - Geraldine Largay

See ^^^ about why Largay is not a comparator on point.

Would you mind citing another source and example? In France? The Pyrenees?
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