Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder? #2

[Sustained]

I am really only interested in what KZ is doing as she is the PC attorney that has the case, and there is always adversarial information from others when they are not involved in a case.
KZ knows what she is doing otherwise she wouldn't be as well respected in the legal field as she is IMO.

Actually there are three parties involved - Avery, the State & the appellate judges but don't let that taint your worship of Zellner. Have you ever stopped for minute and asked yourself "maybe Avery/Dassey really did rape and murder Teresa Halbach ?" I mean Stevie was such an upstanding citizen before and after his release from prison that it couldn't possibly be him and there's no way he could've influenced his dimwit nephew.

 

[Sustained]

Why does nearly all the evidence not make complete sense? The truth isn't complicated, it makes sense.
IMO you are too easily convinced, and I feel you are dismissive of many honest questions about the case. You being angry about this may be clouding your judgment.

As an example, the statements of witnesses that change usually have the same topic, Bobby. Bobby's interview on 11/17/17 exhibits tendencies of a person who is lying. His testimony is suspect. Next to SA, Bobby had equal opportunity to kill TH, but HE HAD GREATER MOTIVE, factually sustained by the Dassey computer.

It is a truth that a persons action comes out of their heart, and if a person feeds their heart obsessively with disgusting pornography, it means they WANT to live it.

The Velie report in 2006 accused Bobby long before Zellner had a chance to.
The fact he has not been caught for anything for a period means nothing at all, that's true of any serial killer.

So let's get justice for Teresa by finding the truth. It won't happen by dismissing questions.

Too easily convinced ? I have been following this case for years and have read everything there is to read.
Avery/Dassey are guilty of the rape & murder of Teresa Halbach.

Thanks for your opinion on Bobby' interview. Sounded pretty normal to me. Greater motive ? How's that ?

We already have justice for Teresa but if you have a lot of time on your hands, maybe you find a scrap of evidence that Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy are really innocent. Throw Dahmer in there as well.

 

[Sustained]

Actually there are three parties involved - Avery, the State & the appellate judges but don't let that taint your worship of Zellner. Have you ever stopped for minute and asked yourself "maybe Avery/Dassey really did rape and murder Teresa Halbach ?" I mean Stevie was such an upstanding citizen before and after his release from prison that it couldn't possibly be him and there's no way he could've influenced his dimwit nephew.

And since now that Zellner has cleared LE, who planted the blood in the Rav4 ? That criminal mastermind Bobby ? Funny that Avery didn't mention the trailer break in and blood theft on 11/3 in ANY of his police or media interviews in early November. But them tail lights ... gotta believe Stevie saw tail lights as everything he says is true. Brain fingerprinting says so lol.

 

[entrustEd]

Too easily convinced ? I have been following this case for years and have read everything there is to read.
Avery/Dassey are guilty of the rape & murder of Teresa Halbach.

Thanks for your opinion on Bobby' interview. Sounded pretty normal to me. Greater motive ? How's that ?

We already have justice for Teresa but if you have a lot of time on your hands, maybe you find a scrap of evidence that Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy are really innocent. Throw Dahmer in there as well.

Your sarcasm isn't necessary. How many years have you been following this case?

The Dassey computer files explicitly show an obsession with violent sexual assault and death of women. That strongly indicates a desire of the computer user(s) and desire is a large part motivation of action. So when you compare the 2 suspects with the greatest but nearly equal opportunity, the one who desires to kill women has a greater motive to kill TH. I say "nearly equal opportunity" because Bobby had greater opportunity than SA, he had the element of surprise. TH probably didn't know she was being watched by someone.

I'm aware of SA's abusive nature towards women close to him. I feel SA desired to have sex with TH, but we all know Kratz would have also if he knew her.

 

[Sustained]

Your sarcasm isn't necessary. How many years have you been following this case?

The Dassey computer files explicitly show an obsession with violent sexual assault and death of women. That strongly indicates a desire of the computer user(s) and desire is a large part motivation of action. So when you compare the 2 suspects with the greatest but nearly equal opportunity, the one who desires to kill women has a greater motive to kill TH. I say "nearly equal opportunity" because Bobby had greater opportunity than SA, he had the element of surprise. TH probably didn't know she was being watched by someone.

I'm aware of SA's abusive nature towards women close to him. I feel SA desired to have sex with TH, but we all know Kratz would have also if he knew her.

Following the case - since the beginning when it first appeared on Dateline.

Were any of the images found on the Dassey computer depicting violence toward women or death found BEFORE Halbach was murdered ? Possibly you can explain why if you believe Bobby Dassey to be a violent sexual predator, he has not been accused by any woman of anything and no criminal record. In fact, he had no criminal record before the Halbach murder. You would think if Bobby had a proclivity for violence against women, SOMETHING would have been reported.

But since you think Bobby is the killer, please present a timeline of how Bobby did it including dates/time/places.

What does Kratz have to do with what Avery & Brendan did to Halbach on 10/31/05 ?

 

[missy1974]

And since now that Zellner has cleared LE, who planted the blood in the Rav4 ? That criminal mastermind Bobby ? Funny that Avery didn't mention the trailer break in and blood theft on 11/3 in ANY of his police or media interviews in early November. But them tail lights ... gotta believe Stevie saw tail lights as everything he says is true. Brain fingerprinting says so lol.

Headlights on the property were mentioned early on by both SA and Chuck.

SA also mentions in one of his early police interviews that he smelled smoke in his trailer (indicating a break in). I don't know when he first mentioned the blood, but he says he mentioned it to his lawyers early on but they went with the vial theory or they had 'lots of his blood' instead, we have no way of verifying that unless his attorney's come forward and say so (I'm not talking just Buting and Strang, I'm talking his public defender he would have had before them)

 

[Sustained]

Headlights on the property were mentioned early on by both SA and Chuck.

SA also mentions in one of his early police interviews that he smelled smoke in his trailer (indicating a break in). I don't know when he first mentioned the blood, but he says he mentioned it to his lawyers early on but they went with the vial theory or they had 'lots of his blood' instead, we have no way of verifying that unless his attorney's come forward and say so (I'm not talking just Buting and Strang, I'm talking his public defender he would have had before them)

Smoke in his trailer ? Please produce the police interview where he says that.

And Avery told his lawyers that had lots of his blood ? Since he's a liar, I don't believe a word it and it's not corroborated. Why didn't he tell police or the media in early November that there was break-in and blood stolen from his sink ? IMO, he invented the break-in to accuse the cops of planting blood in the Rav4. But now that Zellner has "cleared" LE, must've been Bobby lol.

He was already talking about how they were out to get him in the NBC26 interview on 11/4 ... before the Rav4 was even found.

I also believe he and his brother invented the whole tail light / head light BS as well.

 

[Karinna]

Actually there are three parties involved - Avery, the State & the appellate judges but don't let that taint your worship of Zellner. Have you ever stopped for minute and asked yourself "maybe Avery/Dassey really did rape and murder Teresa Halbach ?" I mean Stevie was such an upstanding citizen before and after his release from prison that it couldn't possibly be him and there's no way he could've influenced his dimwit nephew.

BBM, you are wrong, i have respect of KZ as an expert in her field.
What do you think she has to gain by supporting a guilty person, and please don't tell me its fame.
That is just crazy thinking IMO.

 

[Karinna]

Following the case - since the beginning when it first appeared on Dateline.

Were any of the images found on the Dassey computer depicting violence toward women or death found BEFORE Halbach was murdered ? Possibly you can explain why if you believe Bobby Dassey to be a violent sexual predator, he has not been accused by any woman of anything and no criminal record. In fact, he had no criminal record before the Halbach murder. You would think if Bobby had a proclivity for violence against women, SOMETHING would have been reported.

But since you think Bobby is the killer, please present a timeline of how Bobby did it including dates/time/places.

What does Kratz have to do with what Avery & Brendan did to Halbach on 10/31/05 ?

BBM, Kratz is a criminal who should of been prosecuted himself IMO.

 

[missy1974]

Smoke in his trailer ? Please produce the police interview where he says that.

And Avery told his lawyers that had lots of his blood ? Since he's a liar, I don't believe a word it and it's not corroborated. Why didn't he tell police or the media in early November that there was break-in and blood stolen from his sink ? IMO, he invented the break-in to accuse the cops of planting blood in the Rav4. But now that Zellner has "cleared" LE, must've been Bobby lol.

He was already talking about how they were out to get him in the NBC26 interview on 11/4 ... before the Rav4 was even found.

I also believe he and his brother invented the whole tail light / head light BS as well.

Avery told LE that they had lots of his blood from before and now. This is when they were lying to him about finding TH's blood in his trailer, and his bloody palm print on the RAV4 ( I believe it's in the video I link below)

So you say he didn't say anything, yet you point out that as early as 11/4 he was saying they were out to get him? okie dokie then!

You can believe whatever you want about the tail lights/head lights BS, it doesn't discount that it was said early on and would indicate 'something' was going on around his trailer and back by Chuck's (where the RAV4 was found)

as for the interview where he says there was smoke in his trailer... here you go...

here is a link to all the early interviews (note that the written reports do not have everything that was said and listening to the audio/video is way more accurate):
Police Interviews and Interrogations and Audio Recordings – Steven Avery Trial Transcripts and Documents

and here is a bonus interview with Bobby from November 23, 2005 where he says he did go with Steven to check out lights after Chuck called: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Exhibits-9-10.pdf#page=122

So I guess Steven, Chuck, Bobby, and Brendan all lied about the lights? I could see Steven lying about it, but what did the other 3 have to gain from lying about it? Bobby did lie about it later on though and said he didn't go with SA, wonder why his story would change?

 

[Sustained]

BBM, you are wrong, i have respect of KZ as an expert in her field.
What do you think she has to gain by supporting a guilty person, and please don't tell me its fame.
That is just crazy thinking IMO.

Crazy thinking ? Why didn't she take the Avery case until after she had seen the biased docu-drama MaM1 ? And why is she the star of MaM2 ? Anyone interested in lawyering would not have particpated in MaM2.
And look at her Tweeting constantly - publicity, publicity, publicity. Rile up the hive ... she actually uses #workwithKZ as a hashtag now lol.

 

[Sustained]

Avery told LE that they had lots of his blood from before and now. This is when they were lying to him about finding TH's blood in his trailer, and his bloody palm print on the RAV4 ( I believe it's in the video I link below)

So you say he didn't say anything, yet you point out that as early as 11/4 he was saying they were out to get him? okie dokie then!

• He didn't say anything about the break-in and the blood in the sink being stolen and the sink cleaned but claimed he was being framed lol - why didn't he mention the "break-in" ?

You can believe whatever you want about the tail lights/head lights BS, it doesn't discount that it was said early on and would indicate 'something' was going on around his trailer and back by Chuck's (where the RAV4 was found)

• Since Avery is a liar, I don't believe anything he said

as for the interview where he says there was smoke in his trailer... here you go...

• You have a time in the interview when he says there was smoke in his trailer ?

and here is a bonus interview with Bobby from November 23, 2005 where he says he did go with Steven to check out lights after Chuck called: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Exhibits-9-10.pdf#page=122

• So did Bobby actually see the lights, or was it just the Avery brothers ?

So I guess Steven, Chuck, Bobby, and Brendan all lied about the lights? I could see Steven lying about it, but what did the other 3 have to gain from lying about it? Bobby did lie about it later on though and said he didn't go with SA, wonder why his story would change?

• What did Brendan have to gain about seeing the lights ? Seriously ? He participated in the rape and murder of Halbach ? Bobby never saw the lights.

 

[Sustained]

BBM, Kratz is a criminal who should of been prosecuted himself IMO.

Prosecuted for what ?

 

[missy1974]

@Sustained I believe it's towards the end of that interview. This was also in MaM, so this is not "new".

As for the lights... I don't care who saw or didn't see the lights, the fact that both Steven and Chuck saw lights on 2 different evenings is suspicious, and the "stories" are verified by Chuck, Brendan and by Bobby, regardless if they saw the lights themselves.

Are you saying that Chuck preemptively decided to call up Steven on Friday night to say that there was lights back by his place (where the RAV4 was found the next day) and he wanted Steven to go check it out? Now that would be highly coincidental and very intuitive of Chuck to do that for his murderous brother before he even knew the RAV4 was back there.

 

[missy1974]

Prosecuted for what ?

Prosecutor Ken Kratz

 

[Sustained]

@Sustained I believe it's towards the end of that interview. This was also in MaM, so this is not "new".

As for the lights... I don't care who saw or didn't see the lights, the fact that both Steven and Chuck saw lights on 2 different evenings is suspicious, and the "stories" are verified by Chuck, Brendan and by Bobby, regardless if they saw the lights themselves.

Are you saying that Chuck preemptively decided to call up Steven on Friday night to say that there was lights back by his place (where the RAV4 was found the next day) and he wanted Steven to go check it out? Now that would be highly coincidental and very intuitive of Chuck to do that for his murderous brother before he even knew the RAV4 was back there.

Watched - Avery did mention smelling smoke in his trailer but nothing about the cutting his finger, bleeding into the sink, someone stealing the blood, and cleaning up the sink. I am now convinced after rewatching the interview that Avery is a true sociopath. Like many sociopaths, he is very convincing at times.

Nothing is suspicious about the lights if you believe Chuck and Steven are thick as thieves and Chuck may have been covering for him. Avery called Chuck @ 5:57pm on 10/31 after he had murdered Teresa so I don't believe that call was just to shoot the bull.

And how do you know whether Chuck knew the Rav4 was back there or not ? You act like these guys are Boy Scouts. I have no doubt they would cover for each other - zero.

 

[Sustained]

Prosecutor Ken Kratz

What Kratz did was wrong, but he was never criminally prosecuted. And what he did has zero to do with what Steve Avery & Brendan Dassey did to Teresa Halbach.

 

[MummyRatcliffe]

I have read this whole thread over the past few days with great interest and I’m even more confused than ever!

I originally watched mam1 and whole heartedly believed that SA was innocent and framed. After reading as much as I could I’m no longer so sure. I feel there are valid arguments for both sides but I believe I’m slightly more swayed to SA being guilty. I just can’t get past SA blood in her RAV4 and honestly I would have found it more believable for LE to have planted it than BoD, it just seems too far fetched to me.

@Sustained I’ve personally found your arguments intriguing and feel you’ve had a bit of a hard time being in the minority but applaud your tenacity in holding your own in the debate.

I have also read SA former inmates “confession” of what apparently happened to Teresa, what does everyone here feel about that letter? Sorry if there’s already threads on that subject.

 

[Sustained]

I have read this whole thread over the past few days with great interest and I’m even more confused than ever!

I originally watched mam1 and whole heartedly believed that SA was innocent and framed. After reading as much as I could I’m no longer so sure. I feel there are valid arguments for both sides but I believe I’m slightly more swayed to SA being guilty. I just can’t get past SA blood in her RAV4 and honestly I would have found it more believable for LE to have planted it than BoD, it just seems too far fetched to me.

@Sustained I’ve personally found your arguments intriguing and feel you’ve had a bit of a hard time being in the minority but applaud your tenacity in holding your own in the debate.

I have also read SA former inmates “confession” of what apparently happened to Teresa, what does everyone here feel about that letter? Sorry if there’s already threads on that subject.

Hi Mummy - Zellner has now even admitted that LE did not plant the blood in the Rav4. I found it nonsensical to begin with as were Zellner's controlled tests to reproduce the blood stains in broad daylight.
Look at the pic of the blood stain in Avery's car and compare it the Rav4 stain by the ignition switch.

The conspiracy that would be necessary to plant evidence would encompass LE from MCSO, CCSO, Wisconsin DCI, prosecutors, judges, crime lab folks ... it's just nonsense to think all of them would toss a career away for a slimeball murderer and his sidekick.

I also believe what Joe Evan's wrote in his letter regarding Avery and Dassey. Avery related the murder to him long before Zellner came around and way before MaM1. Evans received nothing for the letter. Avery at that point probably thought he was never getting out so why not talk to a buddy.

There are other websites with good legal folks analyzing Zellner's performance to date and her way forward. It does not look promising for Avery at this point, if you believe those internet lawyers. Truthers will say that they're internet lawyers and what do they know, but their case knowledge and reasoning is sound. She's now broadcasting some "new evidence", but she's been doing that for awhile now with the Dassey garage, battery swap, "witnesses" that saw the Rav4 off 147, "human" pelvic bones in the quarry, etc.

Read the CASO report, trial transcripts, watch Avery's YT police and media interviews - there is tons of information for you to formulate your opinion.

 

[entrustEd]

I have read this whole thread over the past few days with great interest and I’m even more confused than ever!

I originally watched mam1 and whole heartedly believed that SA was innocent and framed. After reading as much as I could I’m no longer so sure. I feel there are valid arguments for both sides but I believe I’m slightly more swayed to SA being guilty. I just can’t get past SA blood in her RAV4 and honestly I would have found it more believable for LE to have planted it than BoD, it just seems too far fetched to me.

@Sustained I’ve personally found your arguments intriguing and feel you’ve had a bit of a hard time being in the minority but applaud your tenacity in holding your own in the debate.

I have also read SA former inmates “confession” of what apparently happened to Teresa, what does everyone here feel about that letter? Sorry if there’s already threads on that subject.

Are you saying that you don't have any doubts about the quantity, distribution areas of SA's blood in RAV4?