Strangulation Preferable To Head Wound?

[BBB167893]

"If she had her back to the person then,according to the head wound, they'd have to be holding the end w/ the light on it,is that what you're saying? b/c the square intentation is twds the back of her skull."

I hadn't noticed that. But yeah, if you were holding it "police style" I suppose!

"I can't see him letting her do that if she was unstable enough to kill JB.Unless he thought she was stable then on her meds, but even so, that might be taking a big chance, should she have gotten angry at BR."

If he was in denial before, he certainly wouldn't have changed later.

 

[JMO8778]

If he was in denial before, he certainly wouldn't have changed later.

very true.

 

[angelwngs]

Thank You, Lovebites!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave


If he was in denial before, he certainly wouldn't have changed later.

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Also, if their 'standard opperating procedures' of child care changed that obviously, others would be MORE suspisious of them as being the guilty parties...

 

[Ivy2]

Why did Patsy have the flashlight out in the first place? Do you think she just conveniently picked it up and used it as a weapon? Would there be any use for one in practicing a routine for a pageant? I've heard the sneaking up on John scenario. I'm just curious in the accident scenario how the flashlight came into play?

I also thought I read or heard somewhere that it was a rubber coated flashlight. Anyone else hear that?

 

[JMO8778]

Why did Patsy have the flashlight out in the first place? Do you think she just conveniently picked it up and used it as a weapon? Would there be any use for one in practicing a routine for a pageant? I've heard the sneaking up on John scenario. I'm just curious in the accident scenario how the flashlight came into play?

I also thought I read or heard somewhere that it was a rubber coated flashlight. Anyone else hear that?

I don't recall where, but yes I have heard that recently,I think they sell a maglite that's rubbercoated (In DOI JR says they found a 'maglite type' flashlight,I don't know if it was a true maglight brand or not,he may not want anyone to know,jmo). But that may be why JB's scalp didn't split or bleed,other than the fact she may have been close to death by the time she was struck.

 

[UKGuy]

This is where I always get stuck too UK Guy- why the elaborate cover up if it was an just an accident? So far in my heart, the only remotely conceivable explanation (for these particular people) is if Burke was responsible, whether accidentally or intentionally and the Ramsey's, in a panic, thought they needed to protect him. It's so strange - neither of the Ramsey's come across as diabolical killers (which would make this so much easier), quite the opposite, they both come across as fairly rational people who neither had nor has had an incident of violence before or since the brutal murder of JonBenet. Everything about this case seems to contradict itself.

lovebites,

Yes Burke being involved so they cover up for him is concievable.

I think there is some forensic evidence being withheld because there are some holes in whatever theory you put forward?

It's so strange - neither of the Ramsey's come across as diabolical killers (which would make this so much easier), quite the opposite, they both come across as fairly rational people who neither had nor has had an incident of violence before or since the brutal murder of JonBenet.

But someone in that household did kill JonBenet and did so intentionally since she was finished off so to speak!

Your quote above suggests that the Ramsey's were involved in something you or I dont know about, because if we did, then it would all make sense?

Another perspective is to consider that both parents were involved in JonBenet's death, and that the motive has nothing to do with toilet rage.

This would then smooth out the apparent inconsistencies that arise in an exclusive solo PDI, JDI or BDI etc.

Everything about this case seems to contradict itself.

Particularly so if your theory is a solo one, because alternate solo versions are just as valid?

The way around this impasse is to recognize that both parents were joint partners in JonBenet's death.

Curiously its not just the staging that underlines this is a murder case, but the changes made to the staging. e.g. not an individual effort.



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[UKGuy]

This head wound, confounds me. The wound and the marks on the face and back have driven me nuts for the past number of years. What caused them?

I would be very interested in hearing a forensic assessment offered by a very experienced engineer, who is able to discuss the force required to split the skull this way, yet not split/burst the skin.

Considering that the typical child's skin is rather thin, its very difficult to believe that something metal, delivered this hideous blow to the head, so as to nearly break the skull into two halves - yet not split the skin. I know, I know. The flashlight seems to be what most people/law enforcement speculate, was used. Still, metal against flesh? And no skin break? Very odd.

I am wondering if there is an engineer out there, (or forensics expert who has conducted simulated head trauma experiments), who would be able to narrow the field of what type of structure/material could deliver such a blow to the head, yet not break the skin. i.e. wood (door jam, bat); porcelain (flat/rounded side of the rim of a toilet); hard plastic; etc.

BloodshotEye,

This head wound, confounds me. The wound and the marks on the face and back have driven me nuts for the past number of years. What caused them?

Its possible that those injuries are the result of a frenzied attack !

The same object that caused her skull to split may have been used on her face.

I've often speculated whether JonBenet was tied up prior to being violently assaulted.

If you think it was an ADI then an event sequence such as falling backwards, bashing her head, possibly her face at some point also, then a ligature is applied to finish her off, later the staging process is undertaken?

Just as consistent is if someone deliberately assaults her around the head and face with some object, the other bruising marks may arise if she was naked at this point, and whatever her body hits or rests on after being assaulted, similar to pressure blows, like when you go to hit a nail with a hammer but miss, and later those marks appear?

e.g. JonBenet is tethered to a chair, if someone assaults her violently, then at some point the chair falls backwards, cracking JonBenet's skull, also the projections on the chair in the back and down by JonBenet's ankles cause those markings?

wrt Maglite John Ramsey stated that it was normally stored in the bedroom!


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[BloodshotEye]

Let me see if I can follow your train of thought.
Are you thinking that those weird marks on her face and leg are more like blood blisters (As kids, we always had a few of them here and there)? Rather than a scrape or blow? Seems like a blood blister is the result of pinching of the skin, with a measure of force that is just short of breaking the skin. The blood is forced to the surface of the skin, and then the pressure is released, which prevents the skin from actually breaking open.

Interesting thought. I confess I never thought of these marks resulting from this sort of pinching/pressure.

You mention "tied up in a chair", and at some point, it falls over, and JBR fractures skull and incurrs these "pinching" marks on skin.
So, perhaps you would be suggesting that a part of the chair (e.g. arm or chair back), crushed the skull without significantly breaking the skin.

Testing the "same object did it" theory:
I am trying to visualize a small adult, attempting to "trap" someone as small as JBR, against the wall - simply by pressing a chair against them. The chair might likely pinch the skin, where it makes contact with more pressure. And minutes later, in a rage, the chair was pulled back, lifted up and delivered a blow to the back of JBR's head. Maybe the arm of the chair gives way, and breaks. Or the chair leg.

Yes. In this "test case", the wooden arm or leg of the chair, would absorb some of the energy delivered to the fracture site. If it broke away - even just a little, it might have deflected enough energy away from the fracture site, to prevent the skin from breaking wide open.

I am thinking of it happening, somewhat like pulling the table cloth off the table, yet the table setting is undisturbed. It happens so quick, that it over comes the inertia of the table setting.

What is the object?
So, we need speed (angular momentum) and an object that can break apart, and absorbe some of the shock of the blow. Your guess is that it could have been a chair? Man. That is an interesting theory. I am going to have to think about this one for a while.

In all of that crap in the basement (wine cellar my a##), I wonder if any slightly broken piece of furniture might have been passed over. Each area of the basement was such a filthy broken down mess, I am not sure that a chair that had a slight break in one of the legs or arms, would have looked all that out-of-place. The fact that JR/PR continued to call this filthy basement a "wine cellar" was laughable.

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[Amity]

I've been hesitant to post this thought of mine re: head wound.

I ask that you all hold your snickers :laugh: (at least don't let me see them) until I've completed my thought. :crazy:

Let's pretend, just for a minute, that there was no head wound, visible or not, when JB was found. Let's pretend that she was laid at the base of that Christmas Tree with all the other wounds visible but no head wound.

Many years ago the talk around our huge family gathering dinner table was about "stories from the morgue".
My Grandmother worked at a mortuary and although sometimes she had sad tales to tell, most times we were all wiping tears from our cheeks, tears from laughing so hard with the stories she told about things that went on behind closed doors 'at the shop'.
I know first-hand that the mortuary treated every deceased person with dignity. None were ever left unclothed and if they were being prepp'd, their private areas were always kept covered. If they were being dressed a privacy curtain was pulled around them. Very, very dignified.
Then, there are those things that happen.

A couple stories during Thanksgiving dinner involved, well.......
yes, unfortunately...... *uh hum - clears throat* .........
the dead are dropped.

Ok, sometimes they are bumped, sometimes they move a bit and their head or other body part drops off the edge of the prep table and without knowing, that body part gets bumped when pushing the table through the prep door.
(Grandmother was prepp'ing someone on the prep table and commenting out loud to an empty room how wonderful he looked as he was a very elderly gentleman. Just as she was ready to put comb to his hair, his arm/hand came down and smacked her square on her butt-to hear her tell the story, you'd be roflol).

Could that wound on JB's head be the result of a mishap AFTER she was found dead? Maybe after all the Ramseys' guests had left, the Rams had left for the airport and there were only the LE, CSI and waiting ambulance and attendants there...who's to say something didn't happen?
On her way to the morgue? How about at the morgue itself?

What I'm saying is what IF that head wound wasn't part of the murder at all? Who's to say?


Hey, you in the corner...stop snickering!

 

[narlacat]

I'm not snickering.

This has been suggested on the forum before.

I really doubt a head injury like that could have happened from being dropped.

 

[Cypros]

My understanding of the description of the head injury is that JBR was alive at the time of the head blow and continued to live for some time AFTER the head blow. The strangulation came after.

 

[Solace]

My understanding of the description of the head injury is that JBR was alive at the time of the head blow and continued to live for some time AFTER the head blow. The strangulation came after.

The head wound is 8 1/2 inches and reaches to the top of the bridge of her nose. How is dropping her going to cause this.

The flashlight seems the most plausible and it has been tested and twice I have read from different testers that when the flashlight was used, it produced the same effect that it had on JB in that there is a small rectangular piece that separates and it is the same size as the shape on the flashlight.

Who hit her and why? If this happened in the bathroom as ST believes, then it was an accident and Patsy was in one of her rage modes again as she had been, I believe, in the past; the maid says this happened often and both she and JB were yelling and crying.

 

[BBB167893]

"Why did Patsy have the flashlight out in the first place? Do you think she just conveniently picked it up and used it as a weapon?"

Try this: remember, the switch in JB's room only worked the ceiling fan. You have to go over to her dresser to turn on the light. Bringing a flashlight would have just saved time.

 

[Cypros]

The head wound is 8 1/2 inches and reaches to the top of the bridge of her nose. How is dropping her going to cause this.

The flashlight seems the most plausible and it has been tested and twice I have read from different testers that when the flashlight was used, it produced the same effect that it had on JB in that there is a small rectangular piece that separates and it is the same size as the shape on the flashlight.

Who hit her and why? If this happened in the bathroom as ST believes, then it was an accident and Patsy was in one of her rage modes again as she had been, I believe, in the past; the maid says this happened often and both she and JB were yelling and crying.

Were you talking to me specifically, Solace? Because I did not say that JBR was dropped. I suppose it is possible if the drop was far enough or hard enough and the skull is hit in the right place, but I think it is more likely that she was hit with something hard.

My comment was in response to Amity's theory that the ehad injury occured in the morgue. All evidence points to JBR being alive when she received that blow to the head.

 

[angelwngs]

"Why did Patsy have the flashlight out in the first place? Do you think she just conveniently picked it up and used it as a weapon?"

Try this: remember, the switch in JB's room only worked the ceiling fan. You have to go over to her dresser to turn on the light. Bringing a flashlight would have just saved time.

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This makes more sense to me....

My youngest son frequently had horrible nightmares. When he was little he would always come to my side of the bed and tap me on the shoulder to awaken me. He would tell me he had a nightmare and I would pull him up into our bed and let him sleep in between my husband and me. After he got older, he would come into our room with blanket and pillow in tow and sleep on the antique 'fainting couch' beside our bed. If it was a particualy bad nightmare, he would want to be as close to me as possible and would sometimes come in our bedroom and fall asleep on the floor on my side of the bed without ever waking me. This made climbing down from our high bed dangerous for me. I had to remember to consciously awaken myself enough to look for him before getting out of bed or I'd step on him.

My son was a considerate child. He always awakened me quietly and gently. Also, I was blessed with an over abundance of strong maternal instinct to, first and foremost, always try to protect my young children from anything that might harm them. I wonder if paternal or maternal instinct went 'haywire' in Boulder during the night or early morning of Dec. 25 or 26.

Our children had a young friend who frequently slept over at our home. He would scream bloody murder in his sleep. He would NEVER awaken and never remember the events the next morning. My husband and I would frequently find ourselves, half asleep, falling all over eachother, racing upstairs to our son's room after being jolted from a deep sleep by one of this child's screams.

I wonder if anyone ever asked PR and JR if JBR had nightmares and how she reacted to them when she had them.

What if JBR was perceived as an intruder? Maybe JBR had a nightmare...and came running 'wide open' into her parents room, seeking "safety from the monsters". PR and JR are the ones who are 'zonked out' and when she bounds upon the bed on top of one of them, they are startled into 'panic mode'. Whichever one JBR is crawling over to get into the middle of the bed thinks they are being attacked by an intruder. One of them grabs the closest weapon, the flashlight off the nightstand beside the bed and swing with deadly force at the "thing" that is on top of one of them.

When one is suddenly awakened and in terror, a fairly common reaction is attack before you are attacked...isn't it? This would be the perfect position for JBR to have been in to have received an accidental blow to the side of the head from a flashlight...(If JBR jumped on PR to crawl over her, I would bet money, PR would have freaked out, suddenly waking JR and he could have reacted in a panic, attacking the 'thing' on top of Patsy.)

If indeed BR had been 'playing doctor' and both R's knew it, they would then have had to also cover that up with the 'sexual staging'. If they hadn't their accident' would have eventually taken on a whole new "look" and any of the three R's would have been highly suspected for murder and molestation.