"Stun Gun" marks

[Jayelles]

Jayelles,

Would you please source your assertion that Doberson performed the first autopsy on Boggs.

Certainly - the source is Robert Stratbucker's deposition:-

6 Q. You were familiar with the Boggs
7 autopsy report before you testified in that
8 case; weren't you?
9 A. Yes, I was.
10 Q. That was done by Dr. Michael
11 Doberson; wasn't it, sir?
12 A. The autopsy report?
13 Q. Yes, sir.

Regarding your other point:-

Doberson is the Arapahoe County coroner, just outside of Denver. Boggs was murdered in Steamboat Springs, over 150 miles NW of Denver. Thanks.

BlueCrab

And according to Doberson himself, Boggs was an Arapahoe County case:-

"Doberson said Boulder detectives visited him April 25 to ask about a 2-year-old Arapahoe County case in which the coroner exhumed the body of Gerald Boggs eight months after burial and found evidence of electrical shock in the man's skin tissue."

Edited to Add:-
This is another excerpt from Stratbucker's deposition - Lin Wood is referring here to Bogg's first autopsy:-

19 Q. All right. Were you aware that in
20 the Boggs autopsy report, Dr. Doberson had
21 initially described those two marks that you
22 have just circled as abrasions?

http://www.acandyrose.com/20020530stratbuckerdepo.txt

 

[Solace]

Certainly - the source is Robert Stratbucker's deposition:-


Regarding your other point:-

And according to Doberson himself, Boggs was an Arapahoe County case:-

Jayelles: You take my breath away.

 

[Jayelles]

Jayelles: You take my breath away.

Pleasure

 

[Jayelles]

Michael Dobersen in 2001:-

``The bottom line is, I can't absolutely positively say it was a stun gun,'' Dr. Michael Dobersen said. ``But with the information I have, and everything I've seen, it's the best explanation.''

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-73936604.html

 

[Jayelles]

Let's not also forget that Lou Smit worked with Michael Dobersen on the pig experiments and that AFTER this, Lou Smit went on TV and told the nation about the results of the experiment including the "fact" that the blue line on JonBenet's skin was caused by the blue arc of electricity jumping between the stungun prongs!!!!

Was that Dr Dobersen's educated opinion too? (They did collaborate after all)

Of course, real experts like Robert Stratbucker were quick to dismiss this as nonsense. More than a few non-experts were equally quick to realise that it was nonsense too!

Nebraska Dr. Robert Stratbucker, who has conducted several experiments on stun guns and is considered a courtroom expert, said he takes "considerable issue" with Smit's stun gun theory.

Stratbucker said it is "pure nonsense" that the stun gun would leave a blue mark in between red marks on the skin as Smit claimed. "I have not seen ever, ever any blue marks, and I don't know what the cause of any blue mark could be," he said.

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/02lrams.html

 

[Solace]

Let's not also forget that Lou Smit worked with Michael Dobersen on the pig experiments and that AFTER this, Lou Smit went on TV and told the nation about the results of the experiment including the "fact" that the blue line on JonBenet's skin was caused by the blue arc of electricity jumping between the stungun prongs!!!!

Was that Dr Dobersen's educated opinion too? (They did collaborate after all)

Of course, real experts like Robert Stratbucker were quick to dismiss this as nonsense. More than a few non-experts were equally quick to realise that it was nonsense too!


http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/02lrams.html

Maybe it is his habit to take hallucinogenics before he conducts experiments..

 

[Jayelles]

And from the wonderful Why_Nut:-

Dobersen was, in fact, the man who performed the initial autopsy, and as you can see from this 1995 newspaper article, it was clear that he would have never identified the Boggs marks as coming from a stun gun if police had not come to him and essentially told him that it would help them tremendously if he signed off on the marks as coming from a stun gun, since they had no evidence connecting their desired perp to the crime otherwise.

February 23, 1995

HEADLINE: Slay trial centers on stun gun

BYLINE: Ellen Miller, Special to The Denver Post

HOT SULPHUR SPRINGS - Steamboat Springs businessman Gerald Boggs bled to death from one of three gunshot wounds he suffered and his skull had been fractured by a blow from a shovel, but it was a non-lethal injury near his right ear that occupied attorneys the most yesterday in the murder trial of Jill Coit and Michael Backus.

The injury to Boggs' face initially was labeled an abrasion and given little attention during an autopsy, Dr. Michael Dobersen, the forensic pathologist who conducted it, testified yesterday.

But after authorities found a stun gun in a vehicle registered to Coit, they asked Dobersen to research whether Boggs' injury may have been caused by one.

Dobersen said his initial literature search led him to believe it was possible, so Boggs' body was exhumed about 10 months after his burial in late October 1993 for more examination.

Those tests, and others conducted with a stun gun on live but anesthesized pigs because their skin resembles that of humans, led Dobersen to conclude that Boggs had been burned by a stun gun.

Investigators used two stun guns in the tests, the one found in Coit's vehicle
and a manufacturer's model of the device. The stun gun angle is important to prosecutors because they did not find the .22-caliber firearm used to shoot Boggs, nor did they find any footprints, fibers or fingerprints in his house to match either of the defendants.

The stun gun, they contend, is physical evidence connecting Coit and Backus to the killing.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/printthread.php?t=5789&page=3&pp=12

 

[BlueCrab]

Jayelles,

Thank you for finding that information. Apparently Doberson was the medical examiner for several other counties in addition to Arapahoe County.

I don't know what the big deal is about in regard to Doberson misdiagnosing the stun gun injuries, calling them abrasions, during the first autopsy of Gerald Boggs. John Meyer did exactly the same thing a couple of years later when he autopsied JonBenet. At least Doberson immediately corrected himself and exhumed the body when he learned about the existence of a stun gun.

BlueCrab

 

[coloradokares]

Jayelles,

Thank you for finding that information. Apparently Doberson was the medical examiner for several other counties in addition to Arapahoe County.

I don't know what the big deal is about in regard to Doberson misdiagnosing the stun gun injuries, calling them abrasions, during the first autopsy of Gerald Boggs. John Meyer did exactly the same thing a couple of years later when he autopsied JonBenet. At least Doberson immediately corrected himself and exhumed the body when he learned about the existence of a stun gun.

BlueCrab

You really are a determined one aren't ya? LOL

 

[Credence]

Jayelles,

Thank you for finding that information. Apparently Doberson was the medical examiner for several other counties in addition to Arapahoe County.

I don't know what the big deal is about in regard to Doberson misdiagnosing the stun gun injuries, calling them abrasions, during the first autopsy of Gerald Boggs. John Meyer did exactly the same thing a couple of years later when he autopsied JonBenet. At least Doberson immediately corrected himself and exhumed the body when he learned about the existence of a stun gun.

BlueCrab

Stun gun marks are referred to as abrasions and not only in death. An abrasion is injury of superficial skin so why would Meyer's description be a misdiagnosis. Seems to be that the term "abrasion" is used as a generic term for superficial skin injury.

Use of a TASER device in drive (or touch) stun mode can cause marks, friction abrasions, and/or scarring that may be permanent depending on individual susceptibilities or circumstances surrounding TASER device use and exposure.

http://www.rkdefense.com/proddetail.php?prod=44002

A review of the literature yields interesting findings. A 1987 survey by Ordog et al. and reported in the Annals of Emergency Medicine looked at 218 Taser-related injuries. Most were related to the suspect falling after being shocked. These abrasions, contusions and lacerations were treated in the usual fashion with no unusual sequelae.

http://www.ncchc.org/pubs/CC/tasers.html

Upon his arrival in the United States, petitioner was immediately
transferred to Marion Penitentiary. By that time, approximately 24
hours had passed since his apprehension. A physician examined
petitioner and found abrasions on his head, face, scalp, neck, arms,
feet, and penis, as well as blistering on his back. According to the
physician, those injuries could have been caused by a stun gun. Pet.
App. A3.

http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/1990/sg900934.txt

In the 978 times a Phoenix officer has used a Taser, they have never once injured anyone more severely than an abrasion, Force said. He called the weapons "humane" and "the best, most effective tool" police have to capture suspects.

http://www.paloaltoonline.com/weekly/morgue/2004/2004_07_28.taser28.shtml

Tiny url in case link above does not work:

http://tinyurl.com/yf97os

About 1/3 of US police agencies use tasers.

Injuries caused:

Injuries in 10,485 incidents reporting injury rates:
None: 91%
Minor: 8%
(Puncture wounds from probes, abrasions)
Moderate: 0.3%
(Abrasions, skinned knee, carpet burn, testicle shot, penis shot, cut to mouth, cuts from falling onto glass)
Severe: 0.034%

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=427020

 

[BlueCrab]

You really are a determined one aren't ya? LOL

coloradokares,

Yes, you can say I'm determined when it comes to discussing credible evidence. From the forensic evidence and the behaviors of the Ramseys and others I'm convinced a Ramsey was involved in the death of JonBenet; and I'm also convinced that a stun gun was used in the crime.

I didn't bring up the name of Michael Doberson in this thread; someone else did. But I now feel compelled to defend him from an unfair attack on this thread.

Dr. Doberson is the medical examiner of Arapahoe County, Colorado. He is a nationally recognized pathologist and one of the many forensic pathologists who believe that the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries. These pathologists include Dr. John Meyer, the pathologist who performed the autopsy on JonBent and the only expert who had the opportunity to examine the injuries in person.

However, it is the opinion of Dr. Robert Stratbucker, also a pathologist and a stun gun expert, that the marks on JonBenet are not from a stun gun. But in a deposition in the Wolf v Ramsey defamation lawsuit Stratbucker was seriously discredited by Lin Wood, the Ramsey's defense attorney, to the point that Wolf's attorney withdrew Stratbucker as an expert witness from the case.

Here's Lin Wood in the Wolf v Ramsey case questioning Robert Stratbucker under oath:

Q. "You know Michael Doberson, do you not, sir?"

A. "Indeed I do, yes sir."

Q. "And you have respect for him, do you not, sir?"

A. "I certainly do, yes sir."

Q. "And you have been supplied the report of Dr. Michael Doberson, a forensic pathologist and the coroner and medical examiner of Arapahoe County, Colorado?"

A. "Yes."

Q. "Why is it not in your file materials here this morning?"

A. "Well, I think it is."

Q. "Well, I haven't been shown it.

- - - - -

Q. "Are you telling us that you do not believe that candor and full disclosure required that you inform the court of your relationship with TASER International because in your opinion an Air TASER stun gun was not used on JonBenet Ramsey? Is that your explanation as to why you didn't have to disclose that to the court?"

A. "Well, it is not the explanation I ..."

- - - - -

In this deposition it was brought out that Stratbucker relied only on the written autopsy report to make his determination that the marks on JonBenet were not stun gun injuries. He didn't even see the crime scene photos. Stratbucker claimed he did not use any of the crime scene photos because he had no way of knowing if they were authentic. Lin Wood informed him that Doberson used the original crime scene photos that had been protected by an established chain of custody, not copies, to make his determination that the marks were consistent with stun gun injuries and that he, Stratbucker, could have done the same.

Stratbucker also admitted that he has performed only about 10 autopsies, and that was 25 to 30 years ago.

It's clear to me that Stratbucker, who was being paid $125 an hour by TASER International plus a $1,000 per month retainer fee at that time, and had been given TASER International stock which he sold for $40,000, was not a credible witness.

Stratbucker's opinion that the marks on JonBenet were not stun gun marks were biased in favor of Taser International and therefore worthless.

BlueCrab

 

[icedtea4me]

I wonder what the thickness of the broken basement window frame was.


-Tea

 

[coloradokares]

coloradokares,

Yes, you can say I'm determined when it comes to discussing credible evidence. From the forensic evidence and the behaviors of the Ramseys and others I'm convinced a Ramsey was involved in the death of JonBenet; and I'm also convinced that a stun gun was used in the crime.

I didn't bring up the name of Michael Doberson in this thread; someone else did. But I now feel compelled to defend him from an unfair attack on this thread.

Dr. Doberson is the medical examiner of Arapahoe County, Colorado. He is a nationally recognized pathologist and one of the many forensic pathologists who believe that the marks on JonBenet are consistent with stun gun injuries. These pathologists include Dr. John Meyer, the pathologist who performed the autopsy on JonBent and the only expert who had the opportunity to examine the injuries in person.

However, it is the opinion of Dr. Robert Stratbucker, also a pathologist and a stun gun expert, that the marks on JonBenet are not from a stun gun. But in a deposition in the Wolf v Ramsey defamation lawsuit Stratbucker was seriously discredited by Lin Wood, the Ramsey's defense attorney, to the point that Wolf's attorney withdrew Stratbucker as an expert witness from the case.

Here's Lin Wood in the Wolf v Ramsey case questioning Robert Stratbucker under oath:

Q. "You know Michael Doberson, do you not, sir?"

A. "Indeed I do, yes sir."

Q. "And you have respect for him, do you not, sir?"

A. "I certainly do, yes sir."

Q. "And you have been supplied the report of Dr. Michael Doberson, a forensic pathologist and the coroner and medical examiner of Arapahoe County, Colorado?"

A. "Yes."

Q. "Why is it not in your file materials here this morning?"

A. "Well, I think it is."

Q. "Well, I haven't been shown it.

- - - - -

Q. "Are you telling us that you do not believe that candor and full disclosure required that you inform the court of your relationship with TASER International because in your opinion an Air TASER stun gun was not used on JonBenet Ramsey? Is that your explanation as to why you didn't have to disclose that to the court?"

A. "Well, it is not the explanation I ..."

- - - - -

In this deposition it was brought out that Stratbucker relied only on the written autopsy report to make his determination that the marks on JonBenet were not stun gun injuries. He didn't even see the crime scene photos. Stratbucker claimed he did not use any of the crime scene photos because he had no way of knowing if they were authentic. Lin Wood informed him that Doberson used the original crime scene photos that had been protected by an established chain of custody, not copies, to make his determination that the marks were consistent with stun gun injuries and that he, Stratbucker, could have done the same.

Stratbucker also admitted that he has performed only about 10 autopsies, and that was 25 to 30 years ago.

It's clear to me that Stratbucker, who was being paid $125 an hour by TASER International plus a $1,000 per month retainer fee at that time, and had been given TASER International stock which he sold for $40,000, was not a credible witness.

Stratbucker's opinion that the marks on JonBenet were not stun gun marks were biased in favor of Taser International and therefore worthless.

BlueCrab

At least your willing to defend your position and your belief. I don't believe a stun gun was used. But that is just my opinion.

 

[Camper]

BlueCrab, I am just hopping in and out of here on an irregular basis, so not up on current back and forth posts.

I have a question, with a taser, when it is shot, two wires fly toward the victim and strike them. Do you know if the wires stay connected to the person when the taser is shot?

IS the taser shot finished once the wires hit the victim, do the wires have to be retrieved into the taser after the shot is finished in order to shoot the taser again?

IF a person touched the wires themselves would they get a shock too, OR is the wire protected with a covering?

The thought that brought me here was this, IF the wires are still extended, can another shot be fired, without retracting the wires?

IF IF you could shoot while the wires are still extended from the previous shot, could a perp hold the wire prongs OR one prong directly on the victim for several shots in a row?

Thanks.

.

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab, I am just hopping in and out of here on an irregular basis, so not up on current back and forth posts.

I have a question, with a taser, when it is shot, two wires fly toward the victim and strike them. Do you know if the wires stay connected to the person when the taser is shot?

IS the taser shot finished once the wires hit the victim, do the wires have to be retrieved into the taser after the shot is finished in order to shoot the taser again?

IF a person touched the wires themselves would they get a shock too, OR is the wire protected with a covering?

The thought that brought me here was this, IF the wires are still extended, can another shot be fired, without retracting the wires?

IF IF you could shoot while the wires are still extended from the previous shot, could a perp hold the wire prongs OR one prong directly on the victim for several shots in a row?

Thanks.

.

Hello Camper,

There are two types of TASER 50,000 volt stun guns. One type is a standard hand-held stun gun that must be held against the body of the target. It discharges each time the trigger is pulled and the length of the charge is dependant on how long the shooter holds down the trigger. There are no wires. This is the type of Taser stun gun that, IMO, was used on JonBenet.

The other type of Taser brand stun gun, used by law enforcement, shoots two retrievable darts for up to about 15 feet, each dart remaining attached to the taser by wires. The darts are barbed like a fish hook, attach themselves onto the victim, and must be physically removed after the victim has been placed under control and handcuffed. The gun can be used like a standard hand-held stun gun if the darts miss the target, but requires the shooter to close ranks with the target and struggle with him to get the twin metal prongs of the Taser against the body of the target. In both cases the trigger must be pulled each time to send a jolt. The darts and wires are retrievable, but cannot be re-loaded in the field.

Hope this helps.

BlueCrab

 

[philamena]

BC,
Thanks for the wonderful explanation.

 

[Jayelles]

If you want to call FACTS which don't support your theory an "unfair attack" then you are very free to do so.

I am questioning Dobersen's credibility becuase of the FACT that he failed to recognise stungun marks when they were right in front of him.

You are trying to destroy Dr Stratbucker's credibility because of the FACT that he was such a highly acclaimed expert on stunguns, that a leading manufacturer of stunguns hired him as a resident medical expert.

You are accusing Dr Stratbucker of criminal bias because he was hired as medical advisor to a stungun manufacturer. There is absolutely no proof of that he has perjured himself to protect Taser.

Consider his position. Dr Stratbucker makes a good living as an expert witness on stunguns amongst other things. Why would he jeopardise his income and reputation to defend Taser when Taser aren't even standing accused of any wrongdoing? They manufacture a weapon which hurts people - it isn't as if they manufacture a child's toy which may have caused a child's death - or are a pharmaceutical company whose medical products may be causing harmful side-effects or death. Taser have done nothing wrong - there is no need for them to defend themselves or for anyone else to defend them.

Shouldn't you actually be proving (as I have with Dobersen) that Stratbucker isn't reliable in his ability to recognise stungun marks?
Attacking my motives in stating the facts about Dobersen doesn't change those facts and making slurs about Stratbucker's appointment as medical expert for Taser doesn't change his level of competency! That was the tactic Lin Wood used to try and discredit Dr Stratbucker when he deposed him and it stinks of "dirty trick".

 

[Jayelles]

Bluecrab posted this:-

But in a deposition in the Wolf v Ramsey defamation lawsuit Stratbucker was seriously discredited by Lin Wood, the Ramsey's defense attorney, to the point that Wolf's attorney withdrew Stratbucker as an expert witness from the case.

It is true that Stratbucker was withdrawn after a sustained effort by Lin Wood to discredit him on the basis of his business affiliation with taser (who were not on trial). If you read the deposition, you will see how Lin Wood prevented Robert Stratbucker from answering quetions fully and how he focused on Stratbucker's business connections with Taser and prevented him from explaining WHY he thought the marks weren't made by a stungun. Lin Wood did the same with Steve Thomas.

It's a classic technique and one used to influence the written record. Had Stratbucker had the opportunity to testify in a court, his full testimony would have come out. Had Wolf's attorney been a pie-eater instead of a quiche-eater, he might even have attempted to redress the balance of the situation.

We also don't know whether Darnay Hoffman withdrew him - or whether Stratbucker withdrew himself in disgust at Wood's bully-boy tactics.

 

[Jayelles]

wow, jayelles....I didn't see where bluecrab was "attacking your motives" in his/her post....

I have this sense of deja-vu. I feel I know you from elsewhere..... under a different hat of course.

 

[BlueCrab]

We also don't know whether Darnay Hoffman withdrew him - or whether Stratbucker withdrew himself in disgust at Wood's bully-boy tactics.

Jayelles,

Stratbucker, due to a long list of inconsistent statements, was totally disgraced by Lin Wood in the Wolf v Ramsey deposition. Hoffman unconditionally withdrew Stratbucker from the case as an expert witness and agreed under oath to not re-enter him for any reason in the case.

Lin Wood wasn't bullying Stratbucker; he was simply insisting that Stratbucker truthfully answer the questions put to him.

BlueCrab