"Stun Gun" marks

[JMO8778]

Thanks for posting this, because I had no idea what BORG meant EITHER. DUHHHH

we're prob. all considered huge ones by some.I have to say I'm BORG and proud of it !

 

[Ames]

we're prob. all considered huge ones by some.I have to say I'm BORG and proud of it !

LOL...yep...count me in as a BORG too. (Reminds me of some sort of alien type monster....a borg.)

 

[BBB167893]

Resistance is futile.

Personally, I think it stands for Better Organized Research Groups!

 

[Ames]

Resistance is futile.

Personally, I think it stands for Better Organized Research Groups!

Good one...I agree!

 

[BlueCrab]

Back to the stun gun ...

To recap what has been debated so far on this thread, I think it's fair to say that Dr. Robert Stratbucker's testimony is less than credible because of his financial involvement with TASER International and he has never proven that the marks on JonBenet are NOT stun gun injuries. He never even studied the autopsy photos of the injuries.

Maybe the marks are not stun gun marks, but IMO Stratbucker should not be used as an authority that they are not. Stratbucker admitted the marks might have been stun gun injuries.

In the Stratbucker depostion in Wolf v Ramsey Lin Wood questioned Stratbucker regarding his responses during an NBC Dateline show and was asked if the marks in the JonBenet autopsy photos NBC Dateline showed him looked like stun gun marks:

"I said that I really ---" (long pause)

Q. "Couldn't say?"

A. "Couldn't say."

Q. "Could have been stun gun marks?"

A. "Yeah, might have been."

Q. "Might have been?"

A. "Might have been."

BlueCrab

 

[Solace]

Back to the stun gun ...


To recap what has been debated so far on this thread, I think it's fair to say that Dr. Robert Stratbucker's testimony is less than credible because of his financial involvement with TASER International and he has never proven that the marks on JonBenet are NOT stun gun injuries. He never even studied the autopsy photos of the injuries.

Maybe the marks are not stun gun marks, but IMO Stratbucker should not be used as an authority that they are not. Stratbucker admitted the marks might have been stun gun injuries.

In the Stratbucker depostion in Wolf v Ramsey Lin Wood questioned Stratbucker regarding his responses during an NBC Dateline show and was asked if the marks in the JonBenet autopsy photos NBC Dateline showed him looked like stun gun marks:

"I said that I really ---" (long pause)

Q. "Couldn't say?"

A. "Couldn't say."

Q. "Could have been stun gun marks?"

A. "Yeah, might have been."

Q. "Might have been?"

A. "Might have been."

BlueCrab

Blue Crab:

Just to remind you that on LKL Lou Smit says he cannot say for sure (remember my post on this same thread) that it was a taser, it is the closest thing he could find.

 

[Jayelles]

Back to the stun gun ...

To recap what has been debated so far on this thread, I think it's fair to say that Dr. Robert Stratbucker's testimony is less than credible because of his financial involvement with TASER International and he has never proven that the marks on JonBenet are NOT stun gun injuries. He never even studied the autopsy photos of the injuries.

Maybe the marks are not stun gun marks, but IMO Stratbucker should not be used as an authority that they are not. Stratbucker admitted the marks might have been stun gun injuries.

In the Stratbucker depostion in Wolf v Ramsey Lin Wood questioned Stratbucker regarding his responses during an NBC Dateline show and was asked if the marks in the JonBenet autopsy photos NBC Dateline showed him looked like stun gun marks:

"I said that I really ---" (long pause)

Q. "Couldn't say?"

A. "Couldn't say."

Q. "Could have been stun gun marks?"

A. "Yeah, might have been."

Q. "Might have been?"

A. "Might have been."

BlueCrab

And you have conveniently OMITTED the point that Dr Stratbucker was making - that he simply couldn't tell from a cropped photo with no autopsy rulers.

Had Taser been on trial, I would agree that his business affiliation would affect his standing as an expert witness but Taser were not on trial. Taser had nothing to lose by this at all. Dr Stratbucker OTOH, could jeopardise his entire professional reputation if he lied. He wasn't even being paid.

 

[Jayelles]

And lets not forget that Bluecrab prefers to believe an "expert" who is on record as not recognising genuine stungun marks when he sees them first hand whilst he suggests we discredit an expert of higher standing just "in case" he lied for some unknown reason.

 

[Solace]

And you have conveniently OMITTED the point that Dr Stratbucker was making - that he simply couldn't tell from a cropped photo with no autopsy rulers.

Had Taser been on trial, I would agree that his business affiliation would affect his standing as an expert witness but Taser were not on trial. Taser had nothing to lose by this at all. Dr Stratbucker OTOH, could jeopardise his entire professional reputation if he lied. He wasn't even being paid.

Okay BlueCrab, what is going on? The whole truth or nothing but the truth. I can't understand why you would want to win this argument with a half truth. Seriously.

 

[BlueCrab]

Blue Crab:

Just to remind you that on LKL Lou Smit says he cannot say for sure (remember my post on this same thread) that it was a taser, it is the closest thing he could find.

Solace,

Lou Smit is bothered by the apparent minute difference in spacing and angles left by the twin electrodes as shown in the autopsy photos when compared to the actual Taser stun gun measurements and the alignments from his experiments while tasing a test pig. I have for years explained the reason for this.

JonBenet's soft pliable skin, when jammed with the metal electrodes of a stun gun, will grossly distort. Her skin, when compared to the marks inflicted on the tough skin of a test pig, cannot be compared. The thick skin of a pig will not distort and will leave a near-perfect "signature mark" (burns) every time. JonBenet's skin will distort and thus the signature mark will also be distorted.

BlueCrab

 

[BlueCrab]

And you have conveniently OMITTED the point that Dr Stratbucker was making - that he simply couldn't tell from a cropped photo with no autopsy rulers.

THEN STRATBUCKER SHOULDN'T BE GOING AROUND SAYING THE MARKS ARE NOT FROM A STUN GUN.

BlueCrab

 

[Solace]

THEN STRATBUCKER SHOULDN'T BE GOING AROUND SAYING THE MARKS ARE NOT FROM A STUN GUN.

BlueCrab

Dont yell.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

Lou Smit is bothered by the apparent minute difference in spacing and angles left by the twin electrodes as shown in the autopsy photos when compared to the actual Taser stun gun measurements and the alignments from his experiments while tasing a test pig. I have for years explained the reason for this.

JonBenet's soft pliable skin, when jammed with the metal electrodes of a stun gun, will grossly distort. Her skin, when compared to the marks inflicted on the tough skin of a test pig, cannot be compared. The thick skin of a pig will not distort and will leave a near-perfect "signature mark" (burns) every time. JonBenet's skin will distort and thus the signature mark will also be distorted.

BlueCrab

I just read on another site that the spacing between a stun gun is 3.4 and the spacing between the marks on JonBenet's body is 2.9?

Care to comment on that?

 

[BlueCrab]

I just read on another site that the spacing between a stun gun is 3.4 and the spacing between the marks on JonBenet's body is 2.9?

Care to comment on that?

Solace,

The distance between the twin rectangular electrodes of a Taser brand stun gun, measured centerline to centerline, is 3.5 cm.

The distance between the twin rectangular injuries on JonBenet's left lower back, measured centerline to centerline, is 3.5 cm.

There is no discrepancy in the two measurements; there is only a discrepancy by the person doing the measuring. He didn't measure centerline to centerline OR he used a rubber ruler.

BlueCrab

 

[Jayelles]

THEN STRATBUCKER SHOULDN'T BE GOING AROUND SAYING THE MARKS ARE NOT FROM A STUN GUN.

BlueCrab

Good Lord Bluecrab - you really need to read Stratbucker's deposition and try to understand what he said.

Stratbucker drew his conclusions about the stungun from the autopsy and from 4 other images which weren't cropped. He stated that NBC showed him a picture and asked him if these marks could be from a stungun. That image was cropped and he said HE COULDN'T TELL FROM THAT PHOTO. He wasn't saying that he "didn't know". "can't tell" and "don't know" are not the same thing.

Supposing I posted a cropped photograph of a face. The cropped portion I show you has part of a cheek, part of a nose and a little bit of lip. I ask you "Is this a photo of JonBenet Ramsey?". You look at it and say "I can't tell". I ask you "Could it be?". You reply "It could be". I ask you "Do you think it is?". You reply "I really cannot tell from that photo".

You aren't relling me that you wouldn't recognise a photo of Jonbenet if you saw one. You aren't saying that this definitely IS or ISN'T a photo of Jonbenet. You are saying that you cannot tell from this particular photo! You subsequently find an uncropped version of the same photo and you see it isn't Jonbenet and THEN you state your comclusions.

Do you think you should be discredited for being unable to draw a firm conclusion from the first photo? Of course not. An idiot might draw a conclusion from a cropped photo, but Dr Stratbucker refused to draw any conclusion from a photo which had the rulers cropped out - as any reputable professional would do.

 

[Jayelles]

I just read on another site that the spacing between a stun gun is 3.4 and the spacing between the marks on JonBenet's body is 2.9?

Care to comment on that?

Solace, the distance between the marks is 2.9 cm. The distance between the prongs on a Taser stungun is 3.4 cm. Lou Smit himself acknowledges that they aren't exact when he stated that the Taser was only "the closest".

I have implored Bluecrab over the years to perform an independent experiment on this. I have posted the images from my own experiment and begged people to repeat it and see for themselves. I have offered up every detail of how I did it to allow anyone to pick it apart and prove me wrong.

Still, Bluecrab clings to his non-expert and his incorrect figures.

 

[Jayelles]

This is another piece of silliness - first the stungun theorists will tell you the distance between the marks matches - then they come up with a bunch of fantastic explanations as to why they DON'T match!

Bluecrab now has the distance between the marks on Jonbenet's lower back as 3.5 cm. That is 6mm of a difference that we are supposed to believe her skin stretched! The graphics, properly sized, will show that the marks are 2.9 cm apart.

Please note - there used to be a cropped graphic on jameson's website which compared the marks on Jonbenet and the pig and the spacing appeared to be identical. However when I obtained uncropped versions of these images, the cropped photo of Jonbenet had actually been enlarged to make it match. One wonders it this is the image Bluecrab is using.

My experiment is on another computer, bt I will endeavour to dig it out and post it again. Meanwhile, there is a good discussion of the stungun here:-

http://gemart.8m.com/ramsey/stungun.html

I originally believed that a stungun might have been used and did my experiment to disprove the one above, but I ended up agreeing with his findings.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

The distance between the twin rectangular electrodes of a Taser brand stun gun, measured centerline to centerline, is 3.5 cm.

The distance between the twin rectangular injuries on JonBenet's left lower back, measured centerline to centerline, is 3.5 cm.

There is no discrepancy in the two measurements; there is only a discrepancy by the person doing the measuring. He didn't measure centerline to centerline OR he used a rubber ruler.

BlueCrab

There is a difference of .6 cm's. I could see.1 but not .6. This theory does not wash.

 

[Jayelles]

There is a difference of .6 cm's. I could see.1 but not .6. This theory does not wash.

When you overlay the images printed on acetate, you can easily see that they don't match. That is the acid test IMO.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

The distance between the twin rectangular electrodes of a Taser brand stun gun, measured centerline to centerline, is 3.5 cm.

The distance between the twin rectangular injuries on JonBenet's left lower back, measured centerline to centerline, is 3.5 cm.

There is no discrepancy in the two measurements; there is only a discrepancy by the person doing the measuring. He didn't measure centerline to centerline OR he used a rubber ruler.

BlueCrab

Blue Crab: I just looked at pictures from "Myths of Jon Benet Ramsey" They are measuring the center line and the it does not amount to what you are reporting. It is very clear from the photos. Are you saying the pictures are wrong.