A medical record IS a fact. They don't make up symptoms out of thin air. It comes from evidence of the disorder. Just like any other medical disorder that there are tests for there are subjective information (patient reports) and objective information (testing and observation). These people doing the testing have trained between 12 and 16 years post college to be able to perform and evaluate tests. So if its documented it is true. It holds up in a court of law.
Summary of Damien's Mental Health History
- Thread starter Mary456
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from Dr. Moneypenny's (defense paid doctor) testimony
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/ebtrial/jmoneypenny.html
Q: You're familiar with the statement in the record where he was hospitalized in Oregon where it says the parents are concerned that he is also into satanism or devil worship?
A: Yes.
<<snippped>>
Q: Let me show it to you. And if you would, read the part that I have highlighted in pink. This page has the date. It is on the next page.
And I need you to speak up if you could.
A: (READING) Reports that he thinks a lot about life after death. Quote, I want to where the monsters go, end quote. Describes himself as, quote, pretty much hate the human race, end quote. Relates that he feels people are in two classes, sheep and wolves. Wolves eat the sheep.
<<snipped>>
Q: Yes, sir, if you would read the part in pink.
A: (READING) Damien explains that he obtains his powers by drinking blood of others. He typically drinks the blood of a sexual partner or of a ruling partner. This is achieved by biting or cutting. He said, quote, it makes me feel like a god, end quote.
Q: It makes him feel like what?
A: A god.
Q: A god. Okay. Go ahead.
A: (READING) Damien describes drinking blood as giving him more power and strength.
Then later on the page -- (READING) He has also agreed to continue to discuss his issues with power and control as related to his practice of rituals.
<<snipped>>
Q: If you would read this part?
A: (READING) Quote, I just put it all inside, end quote.
(READING) Describes this as more than just anger like rage. Sometimes he does, quote, blow up, end quote.
(READING) Relates that when this happens, the only solution is to hurt someone. That's in quotes.
(READING) Damien reports being told in the hospital that he could be another Charles Manson or Ted Bundy. When questioned on his feelings he states, quote I know I'm going to influence the world. People will remember me, end quote.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/ebtrial/jmoneypenny.html
Q: You're familiar with the statement in the record where he was hospitalized in Oregon where it says the parents are concerned that he is also into satanism or devil worship?
A: Yes.
<<snippped>>
Q: Let me show it to you. And if you would, read the part that I have highlighted in pink. This page has the date. It is on the next page.
And I need you to speak up if you could.
A: (READING) Reports that he thinks a lot about life after death. Quote, I want to where the monsters go, end quote. Describes himself as, quote, pretty much hate the human race, end quote. Relates that he feels people are in two classes, sheep and wolves. Wolves eat the sheep.
<<snipped>>
Q: Yes, sir, if you would read the part in pink.
A: (READING) Damien explains that he obtains his powers by drinking blood of others. He typically drinks the blood of a sexual partner or of a ruling partner. This is achieved by biting or cutting. He said, quote, it makes me feel like a god, end quote.
Q: It makes him feel like what?
A: A god.
Q: A god. Okay. Go ahead.
A: (READING) Damien describes drinking blood as giving him more power and strength.
Then later on the page -- (READING) He has also agreed to continue to discuss his issues with power and control as related to his practice of rituals.
<<snipped>>
Q: If you would read this part?
A: (READING) Quote, I just put it all inside, end quote.
(READING) Describes this as more than just anger like rage. Sometimes he does, quote, blow up, end quote.
(READING) Relates that when this happens, the only solution is to hurt someone. That's in quotes.
(READING) Damien reports being told in the hospital that he could be another Charles Manson or Ted Bundy. When questioned on his feelings he states, quote I know I'm going to influence the world. People will remember me, end quote.
Ok, I'm convinced. Damien Echols dealt with mental issues that probably a majority of the population does not deal with. I'm not saying anyone is suggesting it, but obviously, it's not evidence of guilt. Plenty of people suffer from the same or similar symptoms and don't murder three 8 year old boys. So now that we've established that Damien suffered from some fashion of mental illness, what evidence is there that he actually committed these crimes?
ScarlettScarpetta
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For me this is still nothing. Nothing more than a teen wanting to be outrageous. I could relate the same things about the "off" group from high school 30 years ago. They were into Ozzy, Were into Blood and crazy stuff, But it was nothing more than a willingness to be different, dark and shocking.
I guess you must have missed the previous post, so I have it pasted below. There is much to read in the exhibit 500, but post #373 will help you some.
I think it shows that he has some very serious mental health problems and was a very dangerous individual.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9960557&postcount=373"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Summary of Damien's Mental Health History[/ame]
ScarlettScarpetta
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Im sorry. I see nothing more than a disturbed, angry, Teen. Not a homicidal maniac. He did not kill these boys so none of this, I don't even know what to call it, matters.
He was full of angst and vinegar. Wanted to shock and horrify people. My belief is that he said whatever he could to be revolting.
He did not kill these boys.. There is no evidence at all that links him to this crime.
I just don't see the point of the analyzing of "information" that is just not relevant to the crime itself.
Actually, he was convicted of the crime, so this "information" is relevant when discussing this case.
Why would his mental health issues be any different from Andrea Yates? I saw your post and now I'm curious?
Your post:
I think she killed her children because she was completely mentally ill. It was not the religion that made her do anything.
I don't know if I agree with her being out either, But I think her mental illness and the lack of proper care was the reason this tragedy happen.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9967259&postcount=95"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Andrea Yates Moved[/ame]
ScarlettScarpetta
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Because she ACTUALLY killed her children. Her mental health was relative to the crime in a deep post partum psychosis.
Damien was a freak teen, He liked to shock and be off. He was looking to be a dark lord of the teen kingdom then..
But he did not kill the boys. He did not harm them. There is no evidence at all linking him to the crime. Nothing. So it just does not matter what a weirdo he was.
ScarlettScarpetta
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He was convicted on bad evidence and fear. Nothing links him to the crime. Nothing..
The reason the prosecutors gave the plea is because they know they are not guilty.
Convicted does not always equal guilt.
sloane7777
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...If you ask me a rebellious 17 or 18 year old kid stuck in backwoods WM Ar (and I have ALOT of family there,still do, and have lived there so I can say that) was his mental state!
Me too and I really don't think that area is as backwoods as you are trying to make it out to be. We own a home further out in AR and live elsewhere because we like paved roads.
I think it's important to know about this information and his defense team must have thought it was important too.
From these documents we can learn where the satanic notion and witchcraft came from. The source was Echols and his family.
Actually he has no conviction.
I actually think that -some- of the stuff he said about himself regarding sociopathy, being like Ted Bundy, et cetera, was a very poor attempt to keep a sense of control in a situation where he felt he had little or none - inflating the things others were projecting onto him, attempting to turn it around so he was the one who had the power. It's not an unusual teen behaviour, I've seen others do it and probably did it myself as a teen.
In Echols' case, it's amplified because he -did- have mental issues and was in deeper trouble and was facing more disapproval for it than is anywhere near my experience and likely most people's.
That's why I can't see any of the comments or behaviours that are clearly bolstering his desired image of 'dark lord of teen badass' as being necessarily indicative of guilt OR a specific mental illness, but they do speak to emotional and mental disturbance and anguish. It's also proof that he wasn't very good at thinking about consequences.
The sheer escalation of Echols' violent behaviour WAS good cause to make him a suspect, though. This wasn't, in my strong opinion, misguided in any way. Echols WAS a good suspect, because he'd acted with enormous violence against other people, and sought to instil fear into others by threat of further violence.
So in my mind, Echols being a suspect (I'm talking prior to Misskelly's clearly confused confessions) is perfectly reasonable, based on the few extremely violent outbursts he'd had.
However, I do think there were other suspects that should have had the same scrutiny, and a good deal more than they got. Was Echols the ONLY teen who'd exhibited such violence in the town? Were there other, more severely violent persons with clearer potential for motive? I believe there might have been..
I think there is and should be a difference between what makes somebody a viable suspect and what constitutes hard proof and evidence of having committed a murder.
In Echols' case, it's amplified because he -did- have mental issues and was in deeper trouble and was facing more disapproval for it than is anywhere near my experience and likely most people's.
That's why I can't see any of the comments or behaviours that are clearly bolstering his desired image of 'dark lord of teen badass' as being necessarily indicative of guilt OR a specific mental illness, but they do speak to emotional and mental disturbance and anguish. It's also proof that he wasn't very good at thinking about consequences.
The sheer escalation of Echols' violent behaviour WAS good cause to make him a suspect, though. This wasn't, in my strong opinion, misguided in any way. Echols WAS a good suspect, because he'd acted with enormous violence against other people, and sought to instil fear into others by threat of further violence.
So in my mind, Echols being a suspect (I'm talking prior to Misskelly's clearly confused confessions) is perfectly reasonable, based on the few extremely violent outbursts he'd had.
However, I do think there were other suspects that should have had the same scrutiny, and a good deal more than they got. Was Echols the ONLY teen who'd exhibited such violence in the town? Were there other, more severely violent persons with clearer potential for motive? I believe there might have been..
I think there is and should be a difference between what makes somebody a viable suspect and what constitutes hard proof and evidence of having committed a murder.
ScarlettScarpetta
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Yes. At the time Bundy was the devil. That he would pick him to use to scare people is not surprising to me.
primitivefuture
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I agree and I think comments made in various case files about Damien support your assertions.
I'd like to add that i think It's pretty common for teens who are bullied for their perceived weirdness to try to turn it around on the ones teasing and talking about them, in an attempt to use their "weirdness" to make others afraid of them. It's a defense mechanism.
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They pled guilty!
Baldwin and Echols each pleaded guilty to three counts of first-degree murder. Misskelley pleaded guilty to one count of first-degree murder and two counts of second-degree murder.
Whether they did it or not, they are convicted murderers.
kyleb
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And there is the difference you suggest, but there's also a lot of people who can't even come to terms with the evidence which proves Echols was a viable suspect from the start, let alone evidence which proved him and the other two guilty beyond any reasonable doubt at their respective trials. That said, if you're ever interested in actually discussing the evidence which proves the three committed the murders, there's plenty of threads here for that, [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212828"]this one[/ame] would be a good place to start.
Who has said Echols shouldn't have been a suspect at all?
Yeah, I'll get round there when I'm ready to. Though I have read many relevant threads and info here and elsewhere, so I'm not coming from the perspective of an utter numbskull.
As for a "lot of people" - I think I've made it clear that I don't care for consensus here, or joining in mass opinions, or joining in various judgements made on mass opinions, it's all not of any interest to me. But I'll make it clear again. Since you keep mentioning these amorphous groups of "lots of people" to me.
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