Syringe in bottle and traces of chloroform #2

[lizzysf]

I still wonder if the dilution happened before the (possible) use of the chloroform to harm Caylee, or after. Or of it is possible to draw any conclusion on the whole subject..was the testosterone in the needle also very diluted or was it at about the right strength for injection? If one was diluted then the other should have been diluted equally.. but if the testosterone was at a high strength and the chloroform at a miniscule amount, then any chloroform found in it was not a factor in Caylee's death.

That's an X that can't be proven. Who knows how much dilution occurred with the other substances in relation to the original concentration of the Chloroform...unless proportional expected levels as a byproduct of an identified naturally occurring process can be calculated into the formula and it adds up correctly. So actually, in this way, X can be proven...(highly suggested)
If the math adds up for an identified naturally occurring process and is not in lethal range...it would suggest that the Chloroform was likely not an exogenous source introduced to the solution at a lethal concentration (or at all). Is that correct chemies?
I think I understand what they are looking for..quantifying it is where the chemist brains takes over..

 

[Wudge]

Okay, first let's talk about the syringe. When the chemist states he feels it is under detectable limits, that means you really aren't very wise to try to do anything with it. In other words - you kind of toss it out. That's most likely why this was not reported in the summary report for the HS-GC-MSD.

But with that aside, talking about 10 ppb for the bottle (and just assuming the same for the syringe). As stated before, you can get this much (or more) in your chlorinated drinking water.

The EPA allows 80 ppb of TTHM's (total trihalomethanes) in your drinking water. One of the THM's is chloroform - a natural byproduct of the chlorination process for your drinking water. What this 80 ppb means is if you didn't have any of the other THM's, you could have up to 80 ppb of chloroform in your drinking water.

So, I would say - a big "no" to the chloroform in this being lethal.

If prosecutors were to try to do something with 'it', your friend sounds like he would make a good witness for the defense -- clear, concise and without a pony in this parade.

(Snappy salute for your good efforts here.)

 

[Curious Me]

I don't know what to think of all this gatorade bottle/syringe results. I'm very confused by it as probably a jury would be. The only thing I do know is it's important that this was found and it must mean something. I'm depending on all of you with more knowledge to clarify the findings. Why have a syringe hidden in a tp roll and a dead little girl? Is there a connection or not?

 

[butwhatif?]

It's a 4 compound anabolic steroid; use popular in the UK for Testosterone Replacement therapy. (therapeutic anabolic steroid) Not available in the US..but smuggled in frequently in the black market from Russia and Mexico as a popular drug of choice for bodybuilders. (non-therapeutic use) I have not been able to find a sister drug for it's exact compounds available per RX in the US yet....still searching, but I am thinking the syringe found is non-therapeutic use anabolic steroids.. NOTHING I am turning up in the US is compounded like Sustanon.

There's pages and pages of sites where you can buy this online.
One site proudly boasts that if it gets intercepted during delivery they will send a second batch at no extra charge.
It's definately in the US since the guys on the bodybuilders forums all have it , and their locations are from various US states.
Apparently it's favoured over other testosterones because its blend doesn't cause water retention like the others do.
Also goes by a few other names: sustamed, and sustaretard - LMAO
LE just needs to search for an aggressive beef head in the area to identify who it belonged to.LOL

 

[JWG]

Okay, I have some answers. The person I got with is a PhD chemist who has years in analytical work.

First this is what I asked (I attached the specific test charts, each labeled according to the references in the question):



Here is his response paraphrased (since I did not get permission to quote him).

First he got on to me for doing "big hammer" stuff and then concedes with "Otherwise what you propose will work, but only for ballpark numbers."...which is all I want, orders of magnitude.

Okay, then for the second question on the dilution, he states that it does not appear to have any adjustment for the dilution, but instead appears to be the raw data straight as ran. I will quote him here...

"In my opinion, sample 240.1.1 is nondetectable. Those peaks are so small that it would be hard to convince me that they are above the limits of detection."

And then he says that, yes, it will have to be corrected for dilution.

So, I have gone back and asked him if on the 240.1.1 reading - uncorrected - does it appear to be in the range of 100 ppt (order of magnitude). I haven't gotten that answer yet. But, for the time being, using that as a reading of the uncorrected results, we get:

total sample volume = 0.5 mL = 500 microL
fraction of test sample that is "pure" sample = (20/500) = 0.04
100 ppt/.04 = 2500 ppt = 2.5 ppb

So adjustment for dilution on the syringe would place it in the range of 1 to 10 ppb which is right at the same concentration for Q238.1. Only problem with this estimate is that right now I'm trying to adjust something that a chemist states should be rendered undetectable so probably all bets are off.

I'll share if he has more to offer.

Here is my interpretation of pages 11643-11644, which DogBond or anyone else is free to correct:

• The control sample of .001% chloroform had a sum of corrected areas of 30072930 for the retention region of chloroform.
• Q238.1 had a sum of corrected areas of 40088 for the retention region of chloroform.
• 40088 / 30072930 = 0.00133 and change. Multiply that by .001% and we get 1.333e-8, or about 13 parts per billion for the liquid in the Gatorade bottle.

If I did that right, then the syringe is about 2-3 parts per billion.

 

[lizzysf]

There's pages and pages of sites where you can buy this online.
One site proudly boasts that if it gets intercepted during delivery they will send a second batch at no extra charge.
It's definately in the US since the guys on the bodybuilders forums all have it , and their locations are from various US states.
Apparently it's favoured over other testosterones because its blend doesn't cause water retention like the others do.
Also goes by a few other names: sustamed, and sustaretard - LMAO
LE just needs to search for an aggressive beef head in the area to identify who it belonged to.LOL

LOL...I saw that too.. but not legal in the US or on any formulary.

 

[aafromaa]

my conclusion on the matter is that there is a reason that they do not just give these reports to juries to figure out, but present any evidence through the testimony of expert witnesses along with these reports - if we ever get to trial then we will see if there is anything to this if the prosecution actually makes this part of their case - but for now we should all remember that the state is required to release all of these test results even if their conclusion is that it has nothing to do with the case - it's too bad that they don't release it with a little footnote that says whether or not they will be presenting it in trial and then we could just skip over the things they have ruled out as potential evidence - come to think of it, I bet JB & company think the same thing

 

[butwhatif?]

LOL...I saw that too.. but not legal in the US or on any formulary.

Yeah, definately not legal in the US, but apparently readily available.
On the body builders sites they post pics of their pecs and blur out their own faces. They want to show off those muscles, but not at the risk of being arrested for using an illegal substance. At least I got a good laugh researching this stuff :wink:

 

[Macushla]

What a marvelous job all you posters did. I followed closely and might even have learned a thing or two - if my tired old brain retains it, that is.

the only thing about this whole thread that bothered me - all of you probably did a lot of JB and company's work for them. Sure hope they appreciate it and wonder if all of you might consider submitting an invoice to them:floorlaugh:

 

[USARDOG]

I don't know what to think of all this gatorade bottle/syringe results. I'm very confused by it as probably a jury would be. The only thing I do know is it's important that this was found and it must mean something. I'm depending on all of you with more knowledge to clarify the findings. Why have a syringe hidden in a tp roll and a dead little girl? Is there a connection or not?

It many or may not be of importance. Just because something is found near a body, does not mean it was relevant to the crime.

Guess were going to have to wait for the trial to see how and what the prosecution uses.

If the Chloroform in the syringe came from water, I would find myself asking why someone was using tap water in a syringe along with Testosterone.

 

[hornswoggled]

Science will prove the facts in court, but as a person, the likes of whom may possibly be sitting on a jury - there is one inescapable fact:

CHLOROFORM JUST KEEPS REARING ITS UGLY HEAD

 

[butwhatif?]

It many or may not be of importance. Just because something is found near a body, does not mean it was relevant to the crime.

Guess were going to have to wait for the trial to see how and what the prosecution uses.

If the Chloroform in the syringe came from water, I would find myself asking why someone was using tap water in a syringe along with Testosterone.

It could be as simple as they used tap water to rinse it out for re-use. The testosterone can come in pre-prepared single use syringes or in vial form.
I mean, if they are using testosterone to begin with they aren't too smart anyway.

 

[USARDOG]

It could be as simple as they used tap water to rinse it out for re-use. The testosterone can come in pre-prepared single use syringes or in vial form.
I mean, if they are using testosterone to begin with they aren't too smart anyway.

I would respectfully disagree. IMO testosterone replacement is a viable medical treatment. From what I have been hearing, will become increasingly
utilized.

However, rinsing out a syringe with tap water smacks of stupidity. IMO, it would take a pretty hard core druggie to do this. Rinsing with alcohol would make a lot more sense.

Not saying it is impossible, just saying it does not make sense to me.

 

[Valhall]

Here is my interpretation of pages 11643-11644, which DogBond or anyone else is free to correct:

• The control sample of .001% chloroform had a sum of corrected areas of 30072930 for the retention region of chloroform.
• Q238.1 had a sum of corrected areas of 40088 for the retention region of chloroform.
• 40088 / 30072930 = 0.00133 and change. Multiply that by .001% and we get 1.333e-8, or about 13 parts per billion for the liquid in the Gatorade bottle.

If I did that right, then the syringe is about 2-3 parts per billion.

Yep - if you take into account the dilution (24:1), then yes, I got 2.5 ppb. Of course, as stated, that's working with a return that apparently we shouldn't be...but, yes, that's what I got.

 

[Wudge]

Science will prove the facts in court, but as a person, the likes of whom may possibly be sitting on a jury - there is one inescapable fact:

CHLOROFORM JUST KEEPS REARING ITS UGLY HEAD

As regards the murder one charge, my take is that chloroform has not yet been established as inculpatory evidence

 

[JWG]

OK, let's move on from chloroform since that proved to be a dead end. :banghead:

I took a look at what was found in the Gatorade bottle, the syringe, and the Crystal Light bottle. Here I summarize what the chemistry lab found. Later I will try to do the same for the toxicology lab (which is where the testosterone was noticed). I have sorted the compounds in order of greatest to least abundance, and I have added a little comment as to the possible purpose of the compound.

From the Gatorade bottle:

ethanol - Denatured ethanol is a solvent
dodecanol - Surfactant
limonene - Solvent
turpineol - Herbal oil
n-tridecan-1-ol - Used in cleaning solutions
2-methyl-1-undecanol - Used in cleaning solutions
7-Octen-2-ol, 2,6-dimethyl - Aromatic used in soaps
dodecane - Solvent
tetradecyl trifluoroacetate - Used in insecticides
1,7,7-trimethyl-bicyclo[2.2.1]hept-2-yl ester - ?
tert-butanol - Used to denature ethanol
eucolyptol - Frangance, insecticide
acetone - Used to denature ethanol
​

IMHO, it looks to me like the Gatorade bottle contained a household cleaner or possibly something like a degreaser. There may have been a mixture of cleaners. Clearly it was not Gatorade or anything one would want to ingest.

From the syringe:

dodecanol - Surfactant
Butylated Hydroxytoluene - Anti-oxidant used in food preservation and other industrial purposes
ethanol - Denatured alcohol is a solvent
limonene - Solvent
turpineol - Herbal oil
dodecane - Solvent
undecane - Attract moths, cockroaches
tetradecane - Cosmetic use?
​

As with the Gatorade bottle, the syringe contents suggest some form of a cleaner is present, although it does not appear to be identical to the contents found in the Gatorade bottle. Again, this appears to be a set of chemicals one would not expect to find in a syringe.

Given the testosterone was found in the toxicology analysis, my initial reaction is that the syringe was used to inject steroids and discarded. It was later found and used to hold a caustic substance.

From the Crystal Light bottle:

2-Butanol - Solvent, also converted to Butanone
methyl ethyl ketone - Solvent, denaturing agent, cleaning agent
Methyl Alcohol - Solvent
Disulfide, dimethyl - Insecticide - contributor of urine smell
P-cresol - Disinfectants, insecticides
Anisole - Aromatic in perfumes and insecticides
Methyl Isocyanide - Pesticides
cyclohexane, [(1-methylpropyl)thio]- - Fungicide, insecticide?
Trimethylamine - Manufacturing use. Main source of urine smell
Phenol - Antiseptic, herbicide
2-Nonanol, 5-ethyl- - Fungicide, insecticide?
Benzothiazole - Industrial use - binding agent?
1-Methoxycycloheptatriene - Use unknown, seems to be a neurotoxin
​

Once again, what appears to be cleaning fluid, insecticide, deodorizer, or some mixture of the above is found in the Crystal Light bottle. Not what one would expect to find.

 

[okiedokietoo]

As regards the murder one charge, my take is that chloroform has not yet been established as inculpatory evidence

Maybe a thread listing what is and isn't possible inculpatory evidence is needed. Because this response is your same take on the Serological Reports (blood) Thread.

 

[Valhall]

OK, let's move on from chloroform since that proved to be a dead end. :banghead:

I took a look at what was found in the Gatorade bottle, the syringe, and the Crystal Light bottle. Here I summarize what the chemistry lab found. Later I will try to do the same for the toxicology lab (which is where the testosterone was noticed). I have sorted the compounds in order of greatest to least abundance, and I have added a little comment as to the possible purpose of the compound.

From the Gatorade bottle:

ethanol - Denatured ethanol is a solvent
dodecanol - Surfactant
limonene - Solvent
turpineol - Herbal oil
n-tridecan-1-ol - Used in cleaning solutions
2-methyl-1-undecanol - Used in cleaning solutions
7-Octen-2-ol, 2,6-dimethyl - Aromatic used in soaps
dodecane - Solvent
tetradecyl trifluoroacetate - Used in insecticides
1,7,7-trimethyl-bicyclo[2.2.1]hept-2-yl ester - ?
tert-butanol - Used to denature ethanol
eucolyptol - Frangance, insecticide
acetone - Used to denature ethanol
​

IMHO, it looks to me like the Gatorade bottle contained a household cleaner or possibly something like a degreaser. There may have been a mixture of cleaners. Clearly it was not Gatorade or anything one would want to ingest.

From the syringe:

dodecanol - Surfactant
Butylated Hydroxytoluene - Anti-oxidant used in food preservation and other industrial purposes
ethanol - Denatured alcohol is a solvent
limonene - Solvent
turpineol - Herbal oil
dodecane - Solvent
undecane - Attract moths, cockroaches
tetradecane - Cosmetic use?
​

As with the Gatorade bottle, the syringe contents suggest some form of a cleaner is present, although it does not appear to be identical to the contents found in the Gatorade bottle. Again, this appears to be a set of chemicals one would not expect to find in a syringe.

Given the testosterone was found in the toxicology analysis, my initial reaction is that the syringe was used to inject steroids and discarded. It was later found and used to hold a caustic substance.

From the Crystal Light bottle:

2-Butanol - Solvent, also converted to Butanone
methyl ethyl ketone - Solvent, denaturing agent, cleaning agent
Methyl Alcohol - Solvent
Disulfide, dimethyl - Insecticide - contributor of urine smell
P-cresol - Disinfectants, insecticides
Anisole - Aromatic in perfumes and insecticides
Methyl Isocyanide - Pesticides
cyclohexane, [(1-methylpropyl)thio]- - Fungicide, insecticide?
Trimethylamine - Manufacturing use. Main source of urine smell
Phenol - Antiseptic, herbicide
2-Nonanol, 5-ethyl- - Fungicide, insecticide?
Benzothiazole - Industrial use - binding agent?
1-Methoxycycloheptatriene - Use unknown, seems to be a neurotoxin
​

Once again, what appears to be cleaning fluid, insecticide, deodorizer, or some mixture of the above is found in the Crystal Light bottle. Not what one would expect to find.

Of all these items, I find the Crystal Lite contents to be the most intriguing. There are several constituents in this "brew" that are identical to constituents you see in such aerosol products as certain spray paints, and industrial spray cleaners/degreasers.

I agree that this is a VERY odd mixture to find in a bottle in a car. The methyl ethyl ketone alone throws a flag.

 

[TakeNote]

Gatorade is primarily water, sugar, sodium chloride and potassium chloride (well, and dyes)- if water has enough chloroform to register on the test - and the testosterone could come from needle residue, do we have any reason to believe that any other chemicals were added to this, or could this just be a used needle inside cardboard inside a bottle of Gatorade??

When I lived in FL I had my water tested (and got a double osmosis filter afterwards) and found we had more chlorine in the water than a swimming pool. They also put alum in the water to mask the smell.

So I guess the chloroform could come from whatever water was used in the Gatorade unless someone thinks it is in higher concentration than that. And unless this test indicates every single chemical isolated, can we just assume they they were specifically testing for chloroform and drugs?

when i was reading over the docs last night...or early am...LOL....i kept coming back to them saying house hold cleaner.....

i get chloroform could be a low dose you would find ...like in water....
the testostertone....a used needle.....

what would make them think household cleaner?

having household cleaner in there to me....rules out ....just anyone shooting up with that.......does that make since?

KC did look up household weapons.....

in the emails between the labs and LE....at first they mentioned to look for chloroform....then later in emails they said they had searchs on the computer to support looking for (....) i would have to look back....

so they werent just asking to look for only drugs, chloroform...but one another thing......when i find it i will post.....

ok....its in a post above.....LOL....thats what i get when i dont read thru first......its ethanol....

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Of all these items, I find the Crystal Lite contents to be the most intriguing. There are several constituents in this "brew" that are identical to constituents you see in such aerosol products as certain spray paints, and industrial spray cleaners/degreasers.

I agree that this is a VERY odd mixture to find in a bottle in a car. The methyl ethyl ketone alone throws a flag.

What is different about the methyl ethyl ketone that draws your attention to it, Valhall?

The contents of the Crystal Lite bottle especially interest me because we know it came from the bag of garbage from Casey's trunk. . . and probably wasn't quite as degraded as the gatorade mixture that was floating around in the slush at the dump site.