Ted Haggard now "completely heterosexual"

  • #101
southcitymom said:
As a recovering addict who attends a 12-step fellowship, I just wanted to chuck in my :twocents: that there's no way a 12-step program could change my predominantly heterosexual orientaion - even if I badly wanted to change it. And I've been attending 12-step meetings and working a program for 12+ years so I have an idea of the kind of exquisite change that can occur in such an environment.

However, 12-step progams are based on honesty - worked correctly, they lead you to deeper honest self-appraisal. Many gays "come out" after exposure to 12-step programs.

Sexual orientation and addiction are simply not comparable from a recovery standpoint. Sexual addiction is comparable, but addiction is not orientation. I don't know if his post makes any sense - I fear I am failing to be clear. How and who we love and how and who we relate to others sexually is almost impossible to change.

You make perfect sense (as always). And good for you and your program!

The confusion results because Christianity has traditionally dealt only with homosexual acts. The Bible has no concept of same-sex sexuality because such a concept was virtually non-existent when the Bible was written.
 
  • #102
Well, all I can say is that the gay people I have had the privilege of knowing are among the most lovable I have ever met.

But then I never met Haggard.

Eve
 
  • #103
spclk said:
I have to disagree with Cypros in that alot of sexuality is a behavior. Those who are very promiscuos and practicing unsafe sex are certainly engaing in a "behavior" that is unhealthy. Many people experiment with same sex encounters and are not gay. So, I agree that "homosexuality" OR "heterosexuality" is part of who we are as humans but, alot of sexuality is "chosen behavior".

I know that in my younger days, my sexuality was more a "behavior" than a reflection on my true self...thankfully I grew up and became much more responsible. :blushing:

I think we're getting caught in our semantics here. You are using "sexuality" to mean a person's series of sexual acts; Cypros and I are using the same word to mean "sexual orientation."

Both meanings exist, so nobody is wrong. But that's the confusion, I believe.
 
  • #104
Spclk,

I know you aren't judging me or calling me names. Though I would defend your right to believe homosexuality is sinful if that is your belief.

But as for the literal "biblical view" on homosexuality, you might want to read what scholars say who are reading the texts in the original languages. (Goodle "Bible homosexuality" and you'll get several good sites.)

The only unambiguous reference in the Bible is the prohibition in Leviticus, and that appears in the midst of many restrictions from Mosaic law that NO Christian follows any more.

More importantly, your point that ministers might well spend more time on sins that actually affect their congregation is excellent! :clap:
 
  • #105
Nova,

I am on Religioustolerance.org right now and reading as you suggested. I certainly am open to learning more regarding your (and many others viewpoints). I just better not let my boss catch me :)
 
  • #106
Here's an update from today's Rocky Mountin News. I knew that "completely heterosexual" bit was BS.....

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5336477,00.html

<snip>



Brendle said that a church overseer's characterization this week that Haggard believed himself to be "completely heterosexual" was meant to communicate the idea that, "Ted's choice is to be married to his wife and love her and be married to her for the rest of his life.

"Human sexuality is a complicated issue and ultimately the only one who can know for sure is Ted, and speculation about that is fruitless," Brendle said. "The three-week counseling program was a beginning, not an end. The facility where Ted and Gayle went is a reputable secular psychological treatment center which aimed to help him understand what's going on inside of him," Brendle said. "We recognize the restoration process is one not of months, but of years."

I wish the former pastor and his family the best, but his former church is doing more harm to humanity than any good, IMO.

Every time I will drive by there in the future, I will picture an building full of ostriches.
 
  • #107
spclk said:
Nova,

I am on Religioustolerance.org right now and reading as you suggested. I certainly am open to learning more regarding your (and many others viewpoints). I just better not let my boss catch me :)

Amen to that (re my boss, I mean).

I can't honestly claim to have a "viewpoint" about the original intent of the Bible, since I don't read those languages. But those who do make it clear that most of our English translations reflect modern biases.
 
  • #108
spclk said:
Nova,

I am on Religioustolerance.org right now and reading as you suggested. I certainly am open to learning more regarding your (and many others viewpoints). I just better not let my boss catch me :)

spclk,

In addition, you might like this site:

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-walter-wink


The author, Walter Wink, knows the scholarship, but he is also a Christian and very concerned with how homosexuality fits into the worldview of a follower of Christ. To Wink, it isn't enough to learn the Bible very rarely condemns homosexual behavior; a thoughtful Christian must still consider the behavior in light of modern knowledge and theology.
 
  • #109
spclk said:
I have to disagree with Cypros in that alot of sexuality is a behavior. Those who are very promiscuos and practicing unsafe sex are certainly engaing in a "behavior" that is unhealthy. Many people experiment with same sex encounters and are not gay. So, I agree that "homosexuality" OR "heterosexuality" is part of who we are as humans but, alot of sexuality is "chosen behavior".

I know that in my younger days, my sexuality was more a "behavior" than a reflection on my true self...thankfully I grew up and became much more responsible. :blushing:

spclk, I was Using the word "sexuality" according to the following definition. While it is used differently by different people, one's "sexuality" may be used in the same way as describing one's orientation, sexual identity, which is not just about whether one like men or women but also the degree of interest in sex.


sexuality - the properties that distinguish organisms on the basis of their reproductive roles; "she didn't want to know the sex of the foetus"

1. The condition of being characterized and distinguished by sex.
2. Concern with or interest in sexual activity.
3. Sexual character or potency.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sexuality
 
  • #110
Nova said:
You make perfect sense (as always). And good for you and your program!

The confusion results because Christianity has traditionally dealt only with homosexual acts. The Bible has no concept of same-sex sexuality because such a concept was virtually non-existent when the Bible was written.

Nova, I find this statement interesting. Are you saying that homosexuality was not a part of the repertoire of human behavior in antiquity and that the people of the Bible had no exposure to or awareness of it? When/where do you understand it to have evolved? I know I have seen erotic art involving males in Mesopotamian art (predating and contemporary with the Old Testament). This website has an interesting discussion of the representation of homosexuality in Mesopotamian culture although I will not be able to read it as carefully as I would like to until tomorrow:
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_attitude_wenham.html

Homosexuality is also evidenced in pharaonic Egypt. Since the Hebrews originated from Mesopotamia and spent many many years in Egypt and were constantly interacting with peoples from these neighboring and dominant cultures they certainly were aware of various forms of sexuality.

I don't believe for a second that there were no gay Hebrews. What do you think shepherds do when out tending to their flocks? I know some shepherds and I have heard some of their stories. If I were not such a lady I wuold share them with you :blushing:
 
  • #111
Cypros said:
I don't believe for a second that there were no gay Hebrews. What do you think shepherds do when out tending to their flocks? I know some shepherds and I have heard some of their stories. If I were not such a lady I wuold share them with you :blushing:


You don't think they "bothered" the sheep, do you?
 
  • #112
Jeana (DP) said:
You don't think they "bothered" the sheep, do you?
actually they did lol. There are refrences in the old testement where laws prohibiting that very thing are mentioned.;)
 
  • #113
kcksum said:
actually they did lol. There are refrences in the old testement where laws prohibiting that very thing are mentioned.;)

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :hand:
 
  • #114
Cypros said:
Nova, I find this statement interesting. Are you saying that homosexuality was not a part of the repertoire of human behavior in antiquity...?

Again, there's that troubling word "sexuality." No doubt there has been homosexual behavior throughout history; since homosexual behavior occurs among all primates, there's no reason to wonder whether it was a pastime of our earliest ancestors.

But when we talk about homosexuality as a sexual orientation, the record gets murkier, largely because the concept as we understand was originally a medical term coined in the 1800s. (Lots of contemporary scholars simply refuse to use the "h" word because of problems like these. But that simply raises other linguistic problems and I figure this is a popular discussion board and nobody wants to read my distinction between the various academic terms (which have probably changed since I began this post).)

The norm in most cultures historically was to focus on love and desire between a man and a (usually adolescent) boy. But these participants weren't considered lifelong "homosexuals" in our sense: it was assumed the man would also sire children with his wife, as would the "boy" of the couple once he reach maturity. The boy (now a man) might then take other boys as his partners. As you know this was the "norm" among the ancient Greeks, early Germans and medieval Japanese.

Most pre-modern cultures did not have a concept of a homosexual orientation whereby one man desires another. (I once argued in a grad school paper that even if Medieval Europeans had had such a notion, they would have lacked the language to express it in writing. The Latin words for beauty, sexually desirable, etc., only applied to females and males young enough to be considered effeminate. Adult males were praised for qualities such as "gravitas," which really didn't have connotations of sexual desirability.)

There are hints here and there that some men (all of this is very different for women) may have remained partnered even after both became adults. Aristophanes mocks "effeminate men" for still playing the role of "beloved boy" after they grow up. A 16th century Japanese writer wrote a very moving short story about two men who maintained their man/boy love into old age (but the younger partner of the pair continued to dress as a teenage boy until they died; such is the Japanese concern with form).

And then there is Plato in the Symposium. As I'm sure you recall, the myth presented therein posits that all people once had two heads, four hands, four legs, etc. Some were male/female in their halves, some male/male, some female/female. An angry god split everyone in two and doomed each individual to an eternal search for his/her "other half."

It's easy to see this as a concept of heterosexual (the male/female pair), gay (male/male) and lesbian (female/female), but scholars have a lot of problem with this. For one thing, they can't seem to find any other iteration of this notion. For another, the other surviving references in Plato seem to refer to the more common man/boy couple.

So long story short (too late!) although there is plenty of male on male eroticism in pre-modern cultures, these almost always involve an adult male with an adolescent male. What is lacking is the context of an innate sexuality that drives one man to love and desire another.

Did homosexuals such as myself exist without being commonly recorded? Your answer to that will depend on whether you think homosexuality is genetic (in which case, it has probably long been with us), psychological (origin may depend on what you believe to be the causes) or primarily social. (In the case of the latter, the argument is that whoever they loved, men couldn't be "homosexual" until the concept was invented. And anyway, the most important reality for a gay man is his relationship with a hostile society, so gay-ancient-Greek - even if it existed - didn't count.)
 
  • #115
Okay, if THAT post doesn't kill this thread, nothing will.

(ETA: for those who are horrified by the popularity of man/boy love in the pre-modern world, (1) I'm not advocating the practice, particularly not today, I'm just reporting; but (2) we should remember these were cultures where females were often married at 11 or 12.)
 
  • #116
Jeana (DP) said:
You don't think they "bothered" the sheep, do you?

I trust that was not Cypros' point. It is Rick Santorum who associates homosexuality and beastiality, not she.

Cypros was talking about what men do when isolated from women (such as when men are alone in the fields together, maybe for months at a time). Yes, they often have sex with one another.
 
  • #117
Nova said:
I trust that was not Cypros' point. It is Rick Santorum who associates homosexuality and beastiality, not she.

Cypros was talking about what men do when isolated from women (such as when men are alone in the fields together, maybe for months at a time). Yes, they often have sex with one another.


Yes. I was just teasing. :blushing: And, while they may have sex with one another out of "necessity," as we know, it certainly doesn't make them "homosexual."
 
  • #118
Jeana (DP) said:
Yes. I was just teasing. :blushing: And, while they may have sex with one another out of "necessity," as we know, it certainly doesn't make them "homosexual."

Well, that depends on how good they get at it. :cool:

(Note to all: just kidding. No, it does not make them homosexual.)
 
  • #119
Nova said:
Again, there's that troubling word "sexuality." No doubt there has been homosexual behavior throughout history; since homosexual behavior occurs among all primates, there's no reason to wonder whether it was a pastime of our earliest ancestors.

But when we talk about homosexuality as a sexual orientation, the record gets murkier, largely because the concept as we understand was originally a medical term coined in the 1800s. (Lots of contemporary scholars simply refuse to use the "h" word because of problems like these. But that simply raises other linguistic problems and I figure this is a popular discussion board and nobody wants to read my distinction between the various academic terms (which have probably changed since I began this post).)

The norm in most cultures historically was to focus on love and desire between a man and a (usually adolescent) boy. But these participants weren't considered lifelong "homosexuals" in our sense: it was assumed the man would also sire children with his wife, as would the "boy" of the couple once he reach maturity. The boy (now a man) might then take other boys as his partners. As you know this was the "norm" among the ancient Greeks, early Germans and medieval Japanese.

Most pre-modern cultures did not have a concept of a homosexual orientation whereby one man desires another. (I once argued in a grad school paper that even if Medieval Europeans had had such a notion, they would have lacked the language to express it in writing. The Latin words for beauty, sexually desirable, etc., only applied to females and males young enough to be considered effeminate. Adult males were praised for qualities such as "gravitas," which really didn't have connotations of sexual desirability.)

There are hints here and there that some men (all of this is very different for women) may have remained partnered even after both became adults. Aristophanes mocks "effeminate men" for still playing the role of "beloved boy" after they grow up. A 16th century Japanese writer wrote a very moving short story about two men who maintained their man/boy love into old age (but the younger partner of the pair continued to dress as a teenage boy until they died; such is the Japanese concern with form).

And then there is Plato in the Symposium. As I'm sure you recall, the myth presented therein posits that all people once had two heads, four hands, four legs, etc. Some were male/female in their halves, some male/male, some female/female. An angry god split everyone in two and doomed each individual to an eternal search for his/her "other half."

It's easy to see this as a concept of heterosexual (the male/female pair), gay (male/male) and lesbian (female/female), but scholars have a lot of problem with this. For one thing, they can't seem to find any other iteration of this notion. For another, the other surviving references in Plato seem to refer to the more common man/boy couple.

So long story short (too late!) although there is plenty of male on male eroticism in pre-modern cultures, these almost always involve an adult male with an adolescent male. What is lacking is the context of an innate sexuality that drives one man to love and desire another.

Did homosexuals such as myself exist without being commonly recorded? Your answer to that will depend on whether you think homosexuality is genetic (in which case, it has probably long been with us), psychological (origin may depend on what you believe to be the causes) or primarily social. (In the case of the latter, the argument is that whoever they loved, men couldn't be "homosexual" until the concept was invented. And anyway, the most important reality for a gay man is his relationship with a hostile society, so gay-ancient-Greek - even if it existed - didn't count.)
Whew! Reading that felt like a cardio workout. :dance:

Just teasing, you know. This is a terrific post and its sentiments echo what my Bible II teacher posited in college when we were studying the "homosexual" texts in the context of the time and society when they were written. Maybe you should be a professor instead of a merketer, Nova!
 
  • #120
I just got through reading your big article Nova and all I have to say is 'whew, I need a nap'. :p


As always very informative.
 

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