Ted Haggard now "completely heterosexual"

[Nova]

Whew! Reading that felt like a cardio workout. :dance:

Just teasing, you know. This is a terrific post and its sentiments echo what my Bible II teacher posited in college when we were studying the "homosexual" texts in the context of the time and society when they were written. Maybe you should be a professor instead of a merketer, Nova!

I was a professor for many years, mom. I retired from that world a couple of years ago.

Curious1 will suspect I retired because I drove my students to take naps, but really that wasn't it.

(ETA: those who find my account overly dense and long-winded should read actual scholarly papers on this subject. You have no idea! (The problem is that all our terms meant something else in other times and cultures, so it's nearly impossible to discuss this stuff without constantly defining terms.))

 

[southcitymom]

I was a professor for many years, mom. I

Well that explains it then!

 

[Nova]

Well that explains it then!

I know it's hard to believe, but I swear I was known for presenting complicated, abstract material is an entertaining and irreverent way.

 

[curious1]

Irreverent? You? I just cannot fathom.

 

[BarnGoddess]

I'll throw something interesting into the mix here. I had heard about this a couple of weeks ago.

Homosexuality is biological, suggests gay sheep study

• 10:51 05 November 2002
• NewScientist.com news service
• Helen Phillips, Orlando

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3008

I understand the original article was back in 2002. Very interesting.

 

[southcitymom]

I know it's hard to believe, but I swear I was known for presenting complicated, abstract material is an entertaining and irreverent way.

Oh, I absolutely believe that Nova. And you are so right to say that discussion of this particular issue ("homosexualality" in Biblical times) is fraught with difficulty. In the class I referenced before, I had to read some of those scholarly papers you mentioned - not the easiest task in the world and I'm a big reader!

 

[eve]

You don't think they "bothered" the sheep, do you?

Have you ever read "The Red Tent" Jeana? Awesome book about biblical times. Not a few boys bothered the sheep. Men too. They also had multiple wives. It focused on the descendants of Abraham. If you haven't read it, it's amazing. Provides a lot of insight into human nature and the Old Testament.

Eve

 

[Cypros]

Nova,

I KNEW you had a good explanation for your statement. I believe we were both involved in discussions of this subject in the Political Pavilion some time ago. Great topic!

I would love for you to be a guest lecturer on this topic in my cultural class some time. You would present in a much more irreverent manner than I am able to do! :blowkiss: In the meantime I am going to copy your post and save it for that section of the class.

 

[Nova]

Nova,

I KNEW you had a good explanation for your statement. I believe we were both involved in discussions of this subject in the Political Pavilion some time ago. Great topic!

I would love for you to be a guest lecturer on this topic in my cultural class some time. You would present in a much more irreverent manner than I am able to do! :blowkiss: In the meantime I am going to copy your post and save it for that section of the class.

Thank you, Cypros. Before I had my own classes, I use to travel around L.A. lecturing on this very topic. All sorts of students, etc. It was never dull.

 

[Cypros]

Thank you, Cypros. Before I had my own classes, I use to travel around L.A. lecturing on this very topic. All sorts of students, etc. It was never dull.

Well come on out to PA! We're NEVER dull!

 

[capps]

Let me first say, that I do not consider homosexuality a disease. However, if it is behavior that you want to change, much like drug or alcohol use, why couldn't therapy help you change that behavior? A recovered drug addict may still want the drug, but realizes that it is unhealthy and chooses not to do it. Do you all not believe that there could be such a thing as a "recovered homosexual"?

I am not defending him, but do believe that he can control his actions "IF" this is what he chooses to do. Just putting it out there for opinions.......

Yes,I believe that could happen,it's called "going back in the closet."

 

[Nova]

Yes,I believe that could happen,it's called "going back in the closet."

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Boyzmomee]

http://www.wbir.com/news/national/story.aspx?storyid=41985

"A fellow minister says the Reverend Ted Haggard has come out of intense counseling, convinced he's "completely heterosexual."

more at link

Right.

 

[Boyzmomee]

Have you ever read "The Red Tent" Jeana? Awesome book about biblical times. Not a few boys bothered the sheep. Men too. They also had multiple wives. It focused on the descendants of Abraham. If you haven't read it, it's amazing. Provides a lot of insight into human nature and the Old Testament.

Eve

That is my favorite book along with "The Prophet."

 

[curious1]

This has been a great discussion, but I have to admit, I keep thinking about the SouthPark "Trapped In A Closet" episode and I just crack up.

 

[i.b.nora]

AP NewsBreak: Haggard Leaves Colorado

ERIC GORSKI | AP | April 18, 2007 07:37 PM EST

"DENVER — The Rev. Ted Haggard moved Wednesday from his longtime home in Colorado Springs to Phoenix, where the disgraced minister will join the same church that helped fallen televangelist Jim Bakker."

snippets:

"As part of his severance package from New Life Church, a 14,000-member congregation he started in his basement, Haggard agreed to leave Colorado Springs, a city he helped make an evangelical center.

"When he moved out of town today, there was a kind of relief on the part of the church that life can get back to normal," said the Rev. H.B. London, one of three ministers overseeing what has been called Haggard's "restoration." "For the Haggards, it is the beginning of a huge new chapter. It's a brand new start for them, the beginning of a new beginning.""

"In Phoenix, Haggard plans to pursue a graduate degree in counseling at an area university, said London, who heads an outreach effort for pastors through Focus on the Family, the Colorado Springs-based conservative Christian group. London was not sure where Haggard would be studying. The Haggards and two of their children _ another three are grown _ are expected to live in a home made available by a supporter.

Ted and Gayle Haggard have ties to Phoenix. The couple spent three weeks at secular treatment center in the area after the scandal broke. And the Pentecostal church they will attend, Phoenix First Assembly of God, is led by the Rev. Tommy Barnett, another member of Haggard's restoration team.

Bakker, the televangelist, found refuge at Barnett's church after being released from federal prison for bilking supporters of $158 million. He volunteered at a Los Angeles church mission run by Barnett's son."

"His former congregation has felt the sting of the scandal. Since Haggard's fall, attendance has fallen 20 percent and giving has dropped 10 percent, said Rob Brendle, an associate pastor. As a result of the decline, the church laid off 44 employees, or 12 percent of its work force."

Maybe he can get a job at Gary Condit's ice cream parlor.

 

[tezi]

Now he's Arizona's problem. I don't like the guy. I think he's a hypocrite and I am glad the guy he was paying came forward.

He's not cured. It's not a disease. It's not like he can take two pills and call the doctor tomorrow and tell him he's better. Why continue to live a life when he's miserable?

Well, Jim Bakker can help him, he's done some bad things but went on to repent, so maybe there's hope. I just won't be going to that church where Haggard is.

 

[Yakwoman]

You're right. We don't know. But for a man of Haggard's generation to risk divorce, ruin and public stigma, the desire must have been pretty strong. (We aren't just talking about one drunken evening, after all.)

Given the shame that still attaches to homosexual behavior - particularly among those of Haggard's religious community - I find it hard to believe he was just "experimenting." (Were we talking about a teenage boy, I would feel differently.)

In my experience, it isn't uncommon for women to turn to lesbian relationships after a difficult heterosexual marriage or just because they really care about one particular woman. In my 35 years as an out, gay man, I have never met a gay man who claimed anything of the kind. (Yes, I've heard a yokel on TV claim he was "turned gay" when he was molested as a child, but oddly, I've never heard a self-accepting gay man say that.)

Pretty much every gay man I've ever met says he knew he was "different" long before he reached puberty. Even once-gay men I know who eventually settled into an open and honest marriage with a woman say the same.

So (a) I doubt the sexual relationship with what's-his-name was Haggard's first; and (b) I doubt he risked so much for something that was opposed to his basic nature. (Turning it around again, there are many women I love very much. And I'm certainly not repulsed by women physically. But risking my home and relationship with my partner to have sex with a woman is very, very hard to imagine. (No offense to any of the great women here at WS!))

I have a gay friend who says exactly the same thing. I think he phrased it this way - "When I was in the first grade, I knew I liked little boys in the way I was supposed to like little girls." He did marry, but eventually came out to his wife (they divorced) and family. He said he got married "hoping those other feelings would just go away, but they didn't."

 

[Utopia]

Why does anyone who is secure in their own sexuality care what anyone else thinks? I am a happy heterosexual, I do not spend anytime worrying about how homosexuals perceive me. Why do homosexuals worry so much about how I perceive them? Before anyone says that homosexuals don't worry about it, the whole reason we're discussing this is because someone is upset that this man says he is now "cured" wether anyone agrees with him or not, why would it matter to anyone else if this man thinks he can " pray away the gay".

This is why kcksum:

the most important reality for a gay man is his relationship with a hostile society

Your hegemonic existence as a "happy heterosexual" does not result in being treated negatively by others, being discriminated against, in imposed shame, in prejudgment by others etc. etc.

Beware: throwing in another angle here...

First, I just want to say what a refreshing change this thread is from many of the posts I read in the Imos thread, some on the VT threads and especially on the "white privilege" thread. I abandoned it early out of frustration and see its still growing so I have no idea what's been happening there the last few days. (Nova, your posts were some of the best exceptions - thank you!).

I am a straight disabled woman, my sister is a gay non-disabled woman. My whole life my sister has been my defender and protector in the often hostile environment I encountered as a disabled child in the 60's & 70's and still do (albeit to a lesser extent) as an adult. When she came out as a lesbian at 17, I was the only person she confided and it was many years before she was comfortable enough to be open about her orientation with others. We both put up with a lot of crap - though very different types of crap.

Eventually we both embraced our identity "differences" and we understand they are what make us who we are. I am what I because I am what I am (if that makes sense). We have had many discussions over the years about the similarities and differences in our life experiences as "others" and as a result we share a precious bond that none of my other siblings share.

When I first read Peggy McIntosh's seminal "White Privilege", while studying Community Work in the late 80's, I could relate to it completely as it went a long way to explaining my experiences as a wheelchair user in a walker's world. I imagine it speaks to the gay experience as well.

P.S. and O/T - Cyprus and Nova, as a mature post-graduate Disability Studies student, I would consider myself very lucky indeed to have either of you for a professor. We could have some great discussions about the parallels between Disability Studies, Queer theory and History! I recently attended a fascinating seminar on representations and evidence of disability in Medieval times.

 

[Nova]

I have a gay friend who says exactly the same thing. I think he phrased it this way - "When I was in the first grade, I knew I liked little boys in the way I was supposed to like little girls." He did marry, but eventually came out to his wife (they divorced) and family. He said he got married "hoping those other feelings would just go away, but they didn't."

Taking the "marriage cure" was once so common it was pretty much the rule.

I'd like to think those days are over, but I suspect Haggard proves they are not.