Terrible tally: 500 children dead from gunshots every year ..

[Sonya610]

A what point does the collateral damage of our current policy become high enough to make people say "this isn't worth it anymore"?

I don't believe for one moment that the problem is the "gun policy". The problem is the decay of society and the lack of moral accountability. The problem is a weak penal system that teaches young offenders they have nothing to fear.

There are areas of this country that are a virtual tinderbox waiting for the spark, the Los Angeles riots, New Orleans after Katrina, etc.... In the South many of us live near cities that could ALSO turn very bad in a heartbeat if circumstances arose that opened the door to that and we know if that happened we would have to protect our own, the government is NOT going to be there to fix our problems.

If there is a glitch in the system and the EBT cards get cut off that alone would spark civil unrest immediately, we have seen that. If folks think all of that is due to civil injustice and in the perfect utopia those things won't be a problem great, then fix that element of society and we can talk about gun control as the next step.

 

[Gardenlady]

How can our penal system be characterized as "weak" when we have the highest number of incarcerated people in the workd, and some of -if not the- harshest sentencing among western nations?

 

[Gardenlady]

I don't believe for one moment that the problem is the "gun policy". The problem is the decay of society and the lack of moral accountability. The problem is a weak penal system that teaches young offenders they have nothing to fear.

There are areas of this country that are a virtual tinderbox waiting for the spark, the Los Angeles riots, New Orleans after Katrina, etc.... In the South many of us live near cities that could ALSO turn very bad in a heartbeat if circumstances arose that opened the door to that and we know if that happened we would have to protect our own, the government is NOT going to be there to fix our problems.

If there is a glitch in the system and the EBT cards get cut off that alone would spark civil unrest immediately, we have seen that. If folks think all of that is due to civil injustice and in the perfect utopia those things won't be a problem great, then fix that element of society and we can talk about gun control as the next step.

I also wanted to say - if there is a special problem in the south, then perhaps those red, southern states need to look at social policy and see where they have failed so badly. Despite being heavy handed on inprisonment, death penalty, and lighter on progressive social policies, there is, you admit, some kind of special problem down there with criminality and unrest?

 

[Sonya610]

I also wanted to say - if there is a special problem in the south, then perhaps those red, southern states need to look at social policy and see where they have failed so badly. Despite being heavy handed on inprisonment, death penalty, and lighter on progressive social policies, there is, you admit, some kind of special problem down there with criminality and unrest?

If one looks at the demographics in the high crime areas of the south they would quickly realize that OTHER cities around the country with the same demographics have the SAME VERY HIGH crime rates. Yes that even includes liberal places like California where folks are oh so enlightened.

If the crime rates are due to social policies and the presence of "evil red conservative southerns" and NOT due to demographics then explain why Washington DC, Chicago, Oakland, Detroit, etc...have the same crime problems or even much worse? Oh and those places also have incredibly strict gun control, in fact they have the strictest in the nation!

This also goes back to my original point, while I can understand the ideals of the pro-gun control segment (even though I don't agree with them) the other side cannot begin to understand our reasoning, they simply decide we are evil and ignorant. Point proven.

 

[Gardenlady]

Absolutely, all areas of the country have problems with violent crime, especially in the cities. I think ALL states need to do a better job on social policy, to address the root of the issue rather than put bandaids on it.

But your list seemed to indicate that areas of the south have a special kind of problem that is somehow different. If that's true, then I don't see how a "weak" penal system, as one of your earlier posts suggests, could be to blame, given that those same southern states tend to have harsher sentences plus the death penalty. The answer must lie somewhere else.

 

[Charlie09]

Gun laws do not restrict your ability to own guns any more than a drivers license restricts your ability to drive a car.

That is a ridiculous statement.
It's not up to the government to make the choice of what I choose to own

 

[Charlie09]

Absolutely, all areas of the country have problems with violent crime, especially in the cities. I think ALL states need to do a better job on social policy, to address the root of the issue rather than put bandaids on it.

But your list seemed to indicate that areas of the south have a special kind of problem that is somehow different. If that's true, then I don't see how a "weak" penal system, as one of your earlier posts suggests, could be to blame, given that those same southern states tend to have harsher sentences plus the death penalty. The answer must lie somewhere else.

Just what we need, more government interference into daily lives. That will fix everything.

 

[Sonya610]

Gun laws do not restrict your ability to own guns any more than a drivers license restricts your ability to drive a car.

One only needs a driver's license to drive on PUBLIC roads owned by the government! They do NOT need a "license" to drive on private property. Likewise cars only need to be registered when they are driven on PUBLIC roads.

Saying I need to get a license which means basically asking PERMISSION to keep my legally owned private property inside my own home is far far different.

Right now one needs to pass a federal background check to legally purchase firearms from dealers. That is enough. Many of us have firearms that are "off the record" because they were gifts, or inherited etc.... and well technically everything I buy is supposed to be "off the record" from the feds but most doubt if we can trust them NOT to keep records. Regardless there is NO WAY most folks are going to ASK the government if we can have permission to keep our own property by applying for a license on our current weapons.

 

[Ausgirl]

Why am I suddenly imagining people typing on battery-operated computers from a fully stocked bunker, somewhere on a mountain?

Eight thousand kids shot. Five hundred of them dead.

Try to picture how many classroom-fuls of children that is.

How sick and outraged we'd all be, if five hundred kids were killed in a school massacre.

Do these numbers mean less, somehow, because all the kids were not shot in one place, at one time? What does it take for that number to create the same feeling of sickness and outrage in people, in every person, in the USA?

It took 35 people killed in one incident - just 35 - for my nation to get behind gun reform laws and make our country a safer place. And yup, mission accomplished -- we still have crime, but we don't get shot and more importantly, our KIDS don't get shot.

 

[FrayedKnot]

I wanted to add - it is not a place of moral superiority that I am arguing from. If it comes off that way, I apologize. The real feeling I have is one of frustration, because I see it as very simple: violence in response to violence never decreases violence. We teach our kids this from an earliest age - dont escalate violence. If someone is violent with you, when you return the violence it only continues. If someone hits you with their hand, you don't return the violence with a bat or other toy. At some point, children learn that hitting, pushing, kicking (violence) does not solve the underlying problem. So why can adults not understand that unchecked possession of tools of violence (firearms) similarly do not address the underlying causes of criminal violence?

A good gun policy does not have to mean complete handover of all guns. Again, Australia is an excellent example to follow in what a common sense gun policy could look like.

Ahh, people often ask me how I can work around "crazy little people" all day and not go 'round the bend myself. :scared:

It's because those little children are kinder, more civilized and inherently smarter than most adults in this world. Oh, and they have empathy and a deep sense of wrong and right. Things that many adults seem to have lost along the way. .

ETA: Sad that it seems to be the children footing the bill for the stupidity and hatefulness of adults. But it's all about what's "mine" and not what's right and good.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Why am I suddenly imagining people typing on battery-operated computers from a fully stocked bunker, somewhere on a mountain?

Eight thousand kids shot. Five hundred of them dead.

Try to picture how many classroom-fuls of children that is.

How sick and outraged we'd all be, if five hundred kids were killed in a school massacre.

Do these numbers mean less, somehow, because all the kids were not shot in one place, at one time? What does it take for that number to create the same feeling of sickness and outrage in people, in every person, in the USA?

It took 35 people killed in one incident - just 35 - for my nation to get behind gun reform laws and make our country a safer place. And yup, mission accomplished -- we still have crime, but we don't get shot and more importantly, our KIDS don't get shot.

Heh heh, that mental image cracks me up. :truce:

Now where did I put those MREs? It's time for breakfast.........:floorlaugh:

 

[FrayedKnot]

Absolutely, all areas of the country have problems with violent crime, especially in the cities. I think ALL states need to do a better job on social policy, to address the root of the issue rather than put bandaids on it.

But your list seemed to indicate that areas of the south have a special kind of problem that is somehow different. If that's true, then I don't see how a "weak" penal system, as one of your earlier posts suggests, could be to blame, given that those same southern states tend to have harsher sentences plus the death penalty. The answer must lie somewhere else.

As a lifelong Southerner, my take is that it is a cultural thing. Hunting is a big deal down here, so lots of people grow up around those types of firearms and so it isn't a big leap to handguns and semi-automatic weapons. Heck, every month or so there are these big honking gun and knife shows.

It's probably not, as you pointed out, correlated to policies on crime. We are very "red state" in the South and historically tough on crime. Hasn't helped a bit.

 

[Sonya610]

Well the way I see it...if folks really think the laws should be changed they can lobby congress and have the federal gun laws revised....but errrm...oh yeah...that was attempted, failed miserably and as a result guns and ammo sales have been through the roof for the last year.

One of the primary reasons I moved to Georgia (from California) was BECAUSE of the firearms laws in this state. I made a very conscious decision to choose a state that reflects my views on the matter. Others can do the same and those that love strict gun control might be much happier in California.

 

[Tulessa]

Well the way I see it...if folks really think the laws should be changed they can lobby congress and have the federal gun laws revised....but errrm...oh yeah...that was attempted, failed miserably and as a result guns and ammo sales have been through the roof for the last year.

One of the primary reasons I moved to Georgia (from California) was BECAUSE of the firearms laws in this state. I made a very conscious decision to choose a state that reflects my views on the matter. Others can do the same and those that love strict gun control might be much happier in California.

It's changed dramatically in Kentucky. You can't go to Wal-Mart and just buy a gun. You are placed on a waiting list, while they do a background check. (good thing). Ammunition is scarce, 22 shells are only available on the internet and we can't afford that price, triple, what it used to be. Oh and hubby is ex LE with a stellar record.

 

[Sonya610]

It's changed dramatically in Kentucky. You can't go to Wal-Mart and just buy a gun. You are placed on a waiting list, while they do a background check. (good thing). Ammunition is scarce, 22 shells are only available on the internet and we can't afford that price, triple, what it used to be. Oh and hubby is ex LE with a stellar record.

The background checks are instant these days so the Walmart waiting list has to do with the massive gun sales and backlog created by it, not because of a wait on background checks. The waiting list for specific models is still an issue though with the Internet it is MUCH better (buy online and have it delivered to a local dealer, they run the background check within 5 minutes), but yeah it costs a bit more.

By "22 shells" I assume you mean 22lr and yeah it is still very hard to find locally for most folks because of the target practice crowd but fortunately most all other common calibers are available in mass quantities once again (at least online).

 

[Tulessa]

The background checks are instant these days so the Walmart waiting list has to do with the massive gun sales and backlog created by it, not because of a wait on background checks. The waiting list for specific models is still an issue though with the Internet it is MUCH better (buy online and have it delivered to a local dealer, they run the background check within 5 minutes), but yeah it costs a bit more.

By "22 shells" I assume you mean 22lr and yeah it is still very hard to find locally for most folks because of the target practice crowd but fortunately most all other common calibers are available in mass quantities once again (at least online).

Yup it's the LR"s we can't find.