The accusation that TH tried to abduct the baby

[YellowSubmarine]

This sounds like another sensationalistic headline that deviates from the truth.

Since we'll probably never know her true intentions that day, all we can do is look at the big picture.

~ Kyron went missing on TH's watch
~ There's a good chance TH tried to have Kaine murdered
~ She gave his address (and who knows what other info) to a third party
~ She clearly has no concept of following laws or any morality

Putting all that together leads me to believe TH is a very frightening woman! How horrible for Kaine and Desiree to have to deal with this while their son is missing!

With all these new revelations coming out, I really do not understand why she isn't in jail.

 

[ami]

*snip*
According to Horman, the abduction attempt occurred on June 28, two days after an emergency restraining order was granted.

Read more: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7019267836#ixzz0ta5hlhPo

*snip*

Do we know if it was "granted" on the 26th but "served" on the 28th? It would be pretty unfair to accuse her of violating an RO that hadn't been served yet.

 

[tlcya]

Is that a legal fact, that the only "good cause" is a restraining order? I mean is that your opinion as a person because it makes sense to you, or is there a law that states that?

What I am trying to articulate is that with or without good cause is a legal interpretation. Only the court can decide if something was with or without good cause. other wise, you, me, the ice cream man or the bully down the block could take such an action claiming they had good cause. Someone can feel they have good cause to do something but until the Court upholds their assertation (in this case by issuing the RO) it is simply not a fact.

I am not accusing Kaine of being an evil parent or a kidnapper. I am saying that this tactic of taking physical custody of your child and then seeking an Emergency Temporary RO is a common one and doesn't automatically mean the individual it is saught against is a serial killer, nor does it mean they are a saint or anything in between. Follow my logic?

I am not saying Kaine has done anything wrong. I am also saying I don't know that in attempting pick up her child, who NO court or law had YET barred her from, Terri did either.

ETA THE above is my opinion and that will change IF I CAN ASCERTAIN WHETHER THIS INCIDENT OCCURRED AFTER TERRI HAD BEEN NOTIFIED TO STAY AWAY FROM HER CHILD.

 

[ami]

I am saying that this tactic of taking physical custody of your child and then seeking an Emergency Temporary RO is a common one and doesn't automatically mean the individual it is saught against is a serial killer, nor does it mean they are a saint or anything in between.

I hear you. That's probably about right, anyway....

I looked at the RO and it was signed on the 28th, so I think the article that said "2 days after the RO" was probably inaccurate.

 

[ClueMeIn]

What changed my mind were the control issues. Someone, I believe it was KH, was going to control what could be asked and answered, when it could be asked and answered, and the way he deep sixed his wife. One would think a man would "cleave" to his wife, but he shed her like a corn husk. If a man really loved his wife, wouldn't he have some loyalty, painful questions? It seemed more like everything was working out just the way it should.

I have no idea what went on with KH, DY, and TMH. Although it does seem a wee hair suspicious, it take two (2) to tango. That means if there was, and I don't know, anything going on with TMH and KH while he was married to DY, he was as guilty as she. Yet, she, TMH, bears the brunt. I don't see this as being fair.

Since the first PC, I have wanted to hop on the wagon with everyone else, but I can't. To me, there is so much more here than meets the eye, or that we've been allowed to see. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Never is one person a saint and the other a sinner.

Matter of fact, a week or so ago, when I believed Terri might be arrested, I was VERY tempted to post that Kyron would probably show up a while later, miraculously. I guess I kinda think KH wanted a divorce and wanted custody of baby K, the same way he got custody of Kyron. A free man with custody of both his bio children, no pesty wife, no alimony, no child support.

KH is a very smart man, in my opinion, colder than the south pole, but very intelligent.

Oh, and one more thing. It does not always take 2 to tango. As in my divorce, I was not to blame for the abuse put upon me. Not in the least. My flaw was my forgiving nature, and naivity regarding domestic violence. I had never been abused, and had no idea that when he told me it would never happen again, that he wasn't 100% telling me the truth.

My opinion only

I see the "control issues" as LE having control over what Kaine and Desiree are saying. Why if Kaine suspected Terri of murdering Kyron would Kaine "cleave" to her? Why, if LE told Kaine that Terri plotted to have him murdered, would Kaine still "cleave" to her? I have been in an abusive marriage. I stuck by him through hell and high water, but there does come a time when you no longer feel like cleaving!

I also don't see how you can assume that he is cold. He looks very distraught, and in all of the pictures with Kyron, he has a gleam in his eye, and a smile. I bet he was a very loving father.

Oh, and one more thing. It does not always take 2 to tango. As in my divorce, I was not to blame for the abuse put upon me. Not in the least. My flaw was my forgiving nature, and naivity regarding domestic violence. I had never been abused, and had no idea that when he told me it would never happen again, that he wasn't 100% telling me the truth.

 

[debs]

Since we'll probably never know her true intentions that day, all we can do is look at the big picture.

~ Kyron went missing on TH's watch (Kyron went missing on the school's watch. Terri's statement is that she left him walking down the hall. There is no evidence which contradicts that.)
~ There's a good chance TH tried to have Kaine murdered (There is no arrest for this action...an action which, had there been proof, would have resulted in an immediate arrest.)
~ She gave his address (and who knows what other info) to a third party (There is no proof yet that she initiated the copying of the RO with MC; only his word so far that she did so.)
~ She clearly has no concept of following laws or any morality (There is no proven law broken....yet. Just because someone accuses her of wrongdoing does not make her guilty of it. There must be proof in a court of law. If there is, then we'll see punishment meted out by that court. As to the sexual nature of her relationship with MC, after what appears to be months of strife in her marriage, any attention by some other man may have, in a stressful time, seemed like affirmation that the whole world hadn't turned against her. Right or wrong isn't for me to judge on that one.)

Putting all that together leads me to believe TH is a very frightening woman! How horrible for Kaine and Desiree to have to deal with this while their son is missing! (They had ample opportunity before Kyron disappeared to deal with Terri's 'frightening' nature, if frightening it was. Where was the concern for the risk to their children then? It doesn't happen in a vacuum, nor spontaneously. There have been admissions of distrust over time spoken about by DY and KH. Feeling froggy doesn't mean someone will leap, yanno? But let's not remove the fact that their children were put at risk, if Terri turns out to be the perp everyone wants to make her out to be, and that will be what should haunt them.)

With all these new revelations coming out, I really do not understand why she isn't in jail. (The law is specific. She has to be proven guilty. Just saying she did something is not proof she did anything. If they had proof, they'd arrest her. If she's guilty, they'll take care of it. But I can't say for 100% certainty that she's guilty of anything more than perhaps having information which could end this search for Kyron. But that's speculation on my part and not proof.)

Bold and purple by me.

 

[Calliope]

Actually I just looked it up (http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/parental-kidnapping/)

*snip*
In the absence of a court order determining rights of custody or visitation to a child, a person having a right of custody of the child commits the crime of parental kidnapping if he removes, takes, detains, conceals, or entices away that child within or without the state, without good cause, and with the intent to deprive the custody right of another person or a public agency also having a custody right to that child
*snip*

Maybe it's more a question for the legal experts here, but it seems like Kaine could take the baby if he believed through LE that she was in danger, even before the RO was issued.

I take that to mean when there is a legal separation or divorce without court ordered custody or visitation. I don't think it applies to those still married who haven't yet begun the process to divorce.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Respectfully, I don't believe most people would try to take the child away from her caregivers while the other parent was out of the room.

That basically describes how KH got custody of baby K; he waited until she was out of the house with LE, then took baby K to an undisclosed location.

I believe most people would call the police and say their child is missing. If that failed, perhaps call Kaine and work out a visitation schedule, offering it to be supervised if necessary to see her baby.

Do we know that TMH did not attempt these things?

We know there was a 911 call over a "custody issue". Perhaps that WAS when TH called the police and said her child was missing. What did the police tell her during that call? That they'd advised Kaine to remove the baby from the home? That she would understand why he left shortly?

I doubt she talked to anyone above the level of a dispatcher. Who determined that there was no divorce in the works (at that time), no judicial orders that applied (at that time) and so KH had the right to remove baby K from the home at his own discretion.

That is what the police in my state would do, anyway. The call was relatively late at night (after 11 pm), so I doubt that the dispatcher called any of the officers in charge of the Kyron investigation. If only because the reported length of the call does not support this inference.

Whichever, it was after this 911 call that TH went to the gym to ask about Kaine and baby K's presence. Her intention might very well have been to take the baby - we don't know that.

I agree with you on this.

And at that time, to term it an abduction would be dubious, legally speaking.

Also, at this point I believe Kaine is being heavily advised by his attorney(s) and LE, rather than willy-nilly filing contempt orders under his own steam.

I have no doubt of that, particularly since the contempt petition states he has records of her text messages and photos sent via cell phone that he requests the judge examine in camera. I don't see any way for him to have obtained those records except through LE.

Well, I suppose it's possible TMH could have showed him but I consider this highly unlikely.

Lastly, I'm really sure we don't know at all how much proof LE has of anything. They couldn't possibly tell us right now. And having proof enough to believe someone is guilty (enough to feel those around them are in danger) and building a solid case that can be won in court are two different things. Police knew Scott Peterson was guilty before they grabbed him - they were waiting for the poor wife and son to be found, watching him, and letting him hang himself further with every day that passed. It ended up to be a good strategy. Maybe they are doing the same here.

I sincerely hope this is so. Because if LE doesn't have any more than has already been released by LE, they may well be dragging an innocent woman through the mud.

Mind, I don't think so. But without knowing what LE has, I can't know what LE has. If you see what I mean!

 

[GrainneDhu]

now wait a minute - first thing this morning the articles I read following links on this and other similar threads claimed the attempt to determine when baby K was at the gym daycare for the assumed purpose of removal by Terri were made BEFORE the RO was issued . Further that this alleged attempted removal was in fact a reason that Kaine's gym was listed specifically on the subsequently filed RO as one of the places that Terri could not go near????

Is this not correct? If this attempted removal of Baby K from gym daycare was after the RO then that changes everything. Hold on, gotta go back and re-read all the MSM coverage on this new development.

Try reading the petition to find TMH in contempt. It states in that petition that her enquiry to the gym clerk was made before the RO was served.

I believe the .pdf before I believe msm.

 

[Trident]

What changed my mind were the control issues. Someone, I believe it was KH, was going to control what could be asked and answered, when it could be asked and answered, and the way he deep sixed his wife. One would think a man would "cleave" to his wife, but he shed her like a corn husk. If a man really loved his wife, wouldn't he have some loyalty, painful questions? It seemed more like everything was working out just the way it should.

I have no idea what went on with KH, DY, and TMH. Although it does seem a wee hair suspicious, it take two (2) to tango. That means if there was, and I don't know, anything going on with TMH and KH while he was married to DY, he was as guilty as she. Yet, she, TMH, bears the brunt. I don't see this as being fair.

Since the first PC, I have wanted to hop on the wagon with everyone else, but I can't. To me, there is so much more here than meets the eye, or that we've been allowed to see. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Never is one person a saint and the other a sinner.

Matter of fact, a week or so ago, when I believed Terri might be arrested, I was VERY tempted to post that Kyron would probably show up a while later, miraculously. I guess I kinda think KH wanted a divorce and wanted custody of baby K, the same way he got custody of Kyron. A free man with custody of both his bio children, no pesty wife, no alimony, no child support.

KH is a very smart man, in my opinion, colder than the south pole, but very intelligent.

Oh, and one more thing. It does not always take 2 to tango. As in my divorce, I was not to blame for the abuse put upon me. Not in the least. My flaw was my forgiving nature, and naivity regarding domestic violence. I had never been abused, and had no idea that when he told me it would never happen again, that he wasn't 100% telling me the truth.

My opinion only

I see the "control issues" as LE having control over what Kaine and Desiree are saying. Why if Kaine suspected Terri of murdering Kyron would Kaine "cleave" to her? Why, if LE told Kaine that Terri plotted to have him murdered, would Kaine still "cleave" to her? I have been in an abusive marriage. I stuck by him through hell and high water, but there does come a time when you no longer feel like cleaving!

I also don't see how you can assume that he is cold. He looks very distraught, and in all of the pictures with Kyron, he has a gleam in his eye, and a smile. I bet he was a very loving father.

Oh, and one more thing. It does not always take 2 to tango. As in my divorce, I was not to blame for the abuse put upon me. Not in the least. My flaw was my forgiving nature, and naivity regarding domestic violence. I had never been abused, and had no idea that when he told me it would never happen again, that he wasn't 100% telling me the truth.

I'm sorry you had an abusive relationship, no one should have to go through that. But, there are more ways than physical violence to be abusive. There is mental abuse, which can be just as devestating as physical abuse. However, I don't think Terri was mentally or physically abused. I see her more as a passionate person, needing love and attention which may have been withheld when she got pregnant and fat. I see a pattern here, jDY and KY separated when she was prego. Maybe some men want kids but not fat, pregnant women? I've heard of that before.

I wonder how many women on this board would honestly believe thier husbands/significant other would dump them like a hot potato becuse LE told hubby they were the target of a hit man? How many wives would believe that? I know I wouldn't have. Maybe I'm just stupid - stupid I may be but I'm suspicious as hell, and I still wouldn't believe it right off the bat. Guess I would cleave until "I" knew something was wrong, and KH said he didn't suspect a thing - he just took LE's word for it.

Bottom line here - a little boy is lost - lost from the school. This other crap and what Terri is texting to another man shows me nothing. Why isn't anyone searching for this child? Do they think they'll find him in Terri's bed? Does anyone think convicting Terri in the media and court of public opinion will bring Kyron home?

Yeah, I believe what people do and say does have a bearing. I also believe the way one was raised has a bearing also. Remember, KH has a brother who also did not grow up in a vacuum. 'Nough said about that. Yeah, follow the dots, but follow all of them then reach your own conclusion, not the one foisted off on you by the media or anyone else. There's a lot of ways this case can play out, probably more than anyone can imagine.

My opinion only

 

[Calliope]

now wait a minute - first thing this morning the articles I read following links on this and other similar threads claimed the attempt to determine when baby K was at the gym daycare for the assumed purpose of removal by Terri were made BEFORE the RO was issued . Further that this alleged attempted removal was in fact a reason that Kaine's gym was listed specifically on the subsequently filed RO as one of the places that Terri could not go near????

Is this not correct? If this attempted removal of Baby K from gym daycare was after the RO then that changes everything. Hold on, gotta go back and re-read all the MSM coverage on this new development.

You don't need to go to the media, just go directly to the source:

http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf

Page 5, point 16 in the supporting affidavit, "on or about June 28, 2010, and prior to the service of the legal documents".

If the media reports otherwise, they're wrong.

 

[ClueMeIn]

I think he was wanting to believe that she didn't have any part in this. Otherwise he would have left sooner. When it got too hard to believe that she wasn't responsible, that coupled with what the police told him about the MFH plot, prompted him to leave. I don't think he just up and left, on a whim.

 

[tlcya]

I have no doubt of that, particularly since the contempt petition states he has records of her text messages and photos sent via cell phone that he requests the judge examine in camera. I don't see any way for him to have obtained those records except through LE.

Well, I suppose it's possible TMH could have showed him but I consider this highly unlikely.

respectfully snipped from GrainneDhu (great post btw)

Unless he had suspected her behavior for some reason previous to Kyron's disappearance (perhaps suspecting an affair) and installed spyware on her phone etc. Or perhaps even doing so just prior to leaving with Baby K, back when Terri was all unsuspecting that Kaine was no longer an ally.

 

[Trident]

I honestly think this is a good thread, one that makes us think outside of the soap opera sleeze being perpetrated by the media and elsewhere. Would Sherlock Holmes have been taken in by sexting on a cell phone?

 

[GrainneDhu]

I have no doubt of that, particularly since the contempt petition states he has records of her text messages and photos sent via cell phone that he requests the judge examine in camera. I don't see any way for him to have obtained those records except through LE.

Well, I suppose it's possible TMH could have showed him but I consider this highly unlikely.

respectfully snipped from GrainneDhu (great post btw)

Unless he had suspected her behavior for some reason previous to Kyron's disappearance (perhaps suspecting an affair) and installed spyware on her phone etc. Or perhaps even doing so just prior to leaving with Baby K, back when Terri was all unsuspecting that Kaine was no longer an ally.

I'm blushing!

Spyware on cell phones? Does that exist? I'm not being snarky, I'm just amazed. My impression was that cell phones are too simple to be easily programmed like that. Although, actually, when I think of it, why not?

Huh. Something else to think about. Thanks!

 

[Trident]

I have no doubt of that, particularly since the contempt petition states he has records of her text messages and photos sent via cell phone that he requests the judge examine in camera. I don't see any way for him to have obtained those records except through LE.

Well, I suppose it's possible TMH could have showed him but I consider this highly unlikely.

respectfully snipped from GrainneDhu (great post btw)

Unless he had suspected her behavior for some reason previous to Kyron's disappearance (perhaps suspecting an affair) and installed spyware on her phone etc. Or perhaps even doing so just prior to leaving with Baby K, back when Terri was all unsuspecting that Kaine was no longer an ally.

WHY would LE have given KH any cell phone pics or texts? Is keeping KH informed of his estranged wife's doings part of their job? If so, LE in that area has missed their calling, they should all become private eyes or district attornies. Maybe we need a definition of law enforcement's job? I know I could use one.

My opinion only

 

[21merc7]

WHY would LE have given KH any cell phone pics or texts? Is keeping KH informed of his estranged wife's doings part of their job? If so, LE in that area has missed their calling, they should all become private eyes or district attornies. Maybe we need a definition of law enforcement's job? I know I could use one.

My opinion only

I agree. Telling someone inflammatory info perhaps evidence, regardless of their relation to the case, is not in good judgment. Could make someone harm someone else, more than just media harassment, thinking physical harm here.

 

[21merc7]

I'm blushing!

Spyware on cell phones? Does that exist? I'm not being snarky, I'm just amazed. My impression was that cell phones are too simple to be easily programmed like that. Although, actually, when I think of it, why not?

Huh. Something else to think about. Thanks!

Everything can be spied on. It is crazy, but if someone wants to know anything about you, they can find it out. They don't even need access in some cases. Listening devices, spy cams (some are just a screw in the wall), night vision, I could go on and on. But, spyware for any electronic device is out there if you want it.

 

[debs]

I honestly think this is a good thread, one that makes us think outside of the soap opera sleeze being perpetrated by the media and elsewhere. Would Sherlock Holmes have been taken in by sexting on a cell phone?

He wasn't taken in by the Hound of the Baskervilles.

 

[AlexisFresca]

I'm blushing!

Spyware on cell phones? Does that exist? I'm not being snarky, I'm just amazed. My impression was that cell phones are too simple to be easily programmed like that. Although, actually, when I think of it, why not?

Huh. Something else to think about. Thanks!

Just asked husband about that and he said, 'I imagine some of those complex ones could be.'