The accusation that TH tried to abduct the baby

[Calliope]

I'm a total loss when it comes to the fineries of the law but if it's true what Kaine says that he was advised by LE to take the baby and get out of dodge while waiting for a RO, wouldn't that go quite some way towards showing he had good cause to remove the child, thus decreasing the similarity between what he did and what Terri might have done if the gym day care worker had called her as requested?

Yes.

I don't believe what Terri did was illegal or violated the RO. First of all, it happened prior to service. Then the word abduct appears in quotes; to me that means that either LE stated that (not likely) or that's the clerk's interpretation of what happened.

IMO, if Terri had truly attempted to "abduct" and that attempt would have been illegal, we wouldn't have seen that relegated to a position of almost an afterthought in the court filing. I think it would have been a bit more urgent and important a matter than Terri showing the RO to Cook.

Additionally, I don't see where the judge even mentioned the alleged "abduction" attempt in his order, which tells me it's completely irrelevant. I wonder if the attorney was admonished off the record for including that as being inflammatory, as she was well aware it occurred prior to the RO.

 

[nanny2five]

I'm sorry you had an abusive relationship, no one should have to go through that. But, there are more ways than physical violence to be abusive. There is mental abuse, which can be just as devestating as physical abuse. However, I don't think Terri was mentally or physically abused. I see her more as a passionate person, needing love and attention which may have been withheld when she got pregnant and fat. I see a pattern here, jDY and KY separated when she was prego. Maybe some men want kids but not fat, pregnant women? I've heard of that before.

I wonder how many women on this board would honestly believe thier husbands/significant other would dump them like a hot potato becuse LE told hubby they were the target of a hit man? How many wives would believe that? I know I wouldn't have. Maybe I'm just stupid - stupid I may be but I'm suspicious as hell, and I still wouldn't believe it right off the bat. Guess I would cleave until "I" knew something was wrong, and KH said he didn't suspect a thing - he just took LE's word for it.

Bottom line here - a little boy is lost - lost from the school. This other crap and what Terri is texting to another man shows me nothing. Why isn't anyone searching for this child? Do they think they'll find him in Terri's bed? Does anyone think convicting Terri in the media and court of public opinion will bring Kyron home?

Yeah, I believe what people do and say does have a bearing. I also believe the way one was raised has a bearing also. Remember, KH has a brother who also did not grow up in a vacuum. 'Nough said about that. Yeah, follow the dots, but follow all of them then reach your own conclusion, not the one foisted off on you by the media or anyone else. There's a lot of ways this case can play out, probably more than anyone can imagine.

My opinion only

bbm : i agree with everything you said, trident. the part i bolded is what has been bothering me. i have been married and divorced twice and not married now, apparently im not good at it. that said i wouldnt have believed they wanted to have me killed. not then and not now. LE couldnt convince me without having a clear unedited video of him hiring the hitman and then i would want to get his story before i believed what LE said. maybe if my child was missing i would be a little more apt to take the other child and leave until it got sorted out, just in case. i dont think KH did the wrong thing under the circumstances, but it seems a little drastic to not even let TH see her child. i hope LE has enough to warrent it.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

THIS NOT TO SAY I FEEL HIM TAKING THE CHILD WAS UNJUSTIFIED. I am simply saying that I do not find it damning that Terri attempted to find out where he and/or the baby were on June 28th BEFORE she was served the RO and divorce papers. Why wouldn't she want to know where they were, particularly, if as I suspect, Kaine wasn't answering her calls.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/search-ky...ting-daughter-affair/story?id=11149983&page=1 The alleged abduction attempt was AFTER the restraining order was served:

According to court documents filed Monday by Kaine Horman in an attempt to have his wife held in contempt for violating the restraining order, Terri Horman tried to "abduct" her 20-month-old daughter from a gym day care June 28, two days after the emergency restraining order was granted, following a revelation from police that she tried to hire the family's landscaper to kill her husband.

So it doesn't seem that her awareness of the RO made any difference. I suspect that at the time of her efforts to "attempt to find out" where Kaine and Baby K were just before the RO was served, she already knew or had reason to know that he was in the process of filing, or already had filed for a RO.

 

[Adalena935]

bbm : i agree with everything you said, trident. the part i bolded is what has been bothering me. i have been married and divorced twice and not married now, apparently im not good at it. that said i wouldnt have believed they wanted to have me killed. not then and not now. LE couldnt convince me without having a clear unedited video of him hiring the hitman and then i would want to get his story before i believed what LE said. maybe if my child was missing i would be a little more apt to take the other child and leave until it got sorted out, just in case. i dont think KH did the wrong thing under the circumstances, but it seems a little drastic to not even let TH see her child. i hope LE has enough to warrent it.

Kaine didn't say he took their word for it though. This was his statement on the PO

http://www.kgw.com/home/Key-Horman-document-could-be-made-public-97975779.html

The police have provided me with probable cause to believe the above two statements to be true," Horman wrote.

provided means they gave him or showed him something to base his belief on. I think they showed him some evidence rather than just their word alone.

 

[pinkpuddytat]

Bottom line here - a little boy is lost - lost from the school. This other crap and what Terri is texting to another man shows me nothing. Why isn't anyone searching for this child? Do they think they'll find him in Terri's bed? Does anyone think convicting Terri in the media and court of public opinion will bring Kyron home?

Her new (apparently) relationship with MC may well provide another avenue of information that could lead to Kyron. If she's sending him sexually graphic messages and photos of herself, who knows what else she's sharing with him. This point was made by a former FBI agent interviewed re the case:

Former FBI Special Agent Brad Garrett said investigators' decision to release the damaging court documents was one more sign they were trying to force Terri Horman into cooperating with their efforts to find Kyron.

"What they're trying to do is continue trying to tighten the vice," Garrett said. "When you become more desperate you tend to make more mistakes."

The affair with Cook, Garrett said, has the potential to provide new leads in the boy's disappearance.

"The key, I think, in this case is a new strain of information possibly through Mr. Cook," he said, "or things Mr. Cook could bring into the case."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/search-ky...ting-daughter-affair/story?id=11149983&page=1

There's not much point just asking the same few people over and over again if they know what happened to Kyron. If Terri knows, she's not telling investigators or Kaine or Desiree. I see no reason to protect her personal life when her behavior has been so bizarre and so inconsistent with a desire to help find Kyron. MC admits to having had "inappropriate communication" with Terri and has said he's planning to hire lawyer. Someone who's recently had "inappropriate communication" with the stepmother of, and last person to see a missing child (and who he certainly knew was in that position), and who is speaking to the media and "lawyering up", should certainly be a new focus of interest in the investigation.

 

[TopTop]

Right, but the signal travels from the nearest tower to her phone. Signals don't go directly from phone to phone, right? (maybe, I should look at the link to the spyware program again)

Where a phone pings to is related to the physical location of the phone, not the call, who originates it or who is on it.

 

[mchris1024]

i dont think KH did the wrong thing under the circumstances, but it seems a little drastic to not even let TH see her child. i hope LE has enough to warrent it.

I have wondered what a child therapist would say, I know children who have been in horrific situations and the courts bent over backwards to keep children with their parents, I wonder what the little girl is thinking and feeling. I don't know what it would do to a child this young to be taken from their primary caregiver like she was. I just question why she wasn't given supervised visits until it's proven she did something. Heck, people in jail get to visit with their children and those visits are ordered by judges everyday....something about this part of it continues to STINK for me.

 

[Donjeta]

But the same could be argued by Terri in the reverse.

SBM.

IMO it wouldn't be the same situation if she wasn't advised by LE to go.

It is a given in any custody situation that both parties may make allegations against each other but pretty rare that LE takes any initiative in advising one party about the other.

 

[Donjeta]

Yes.

I don't believe what Terri did was illegal or violated the RO. First of all, it happened prior to service. Then the word abduct appears in quotes; to me that means that either LE stated that (not likely) or that's the clerk's interpretation of what happened.

IMO, if Terri had truly attempted to "abduct" and that attempt would have been illegal, we wouldn't have seen that relegated to a position of almost an afterthought in the court filing. I think it would have been a bit more urgent and important a matter than Terri showing the RO to Cook.

Additionally, I don't see where the judge even mentioned the alleged "abduction" attempt in his order, which tells me it's completely irrelevant. I wonder if the attorney was admonished off the record for including that as being inflammatory, as she was well aware it occurred prior to the RO.

JMO but I don't think it was ever claimed that she attempted abduction that day, because it seems like the baby wasn't even there when she came to the gym. At most she made some anticipatory movements to get the possibility to do so on some date in the future. The document says "looking to", not attempt.

 

[wvjules]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/search-ky...ting-daughter-affair/story?id=11149983&page=1 The alleged abduction attempt was AFTER the restraining order was served:

According to court documents filed Monday by Kaine Horman in an attempt to have his wife held in contempt for violating the restraining order, Terri Horman tried to "abduct" her 20-month-old daughter from a gym day care June 28, two days after the emergency restraining order was granted, following a revelation from police that she tried to hire the family's landscaper to kill her husband.

So it doesn't seem that her awareness of the RO made any difference. I suspect that at the time of her efforts to "attempt to find out" where Kaine and Baby K were just before the RO was served, she already knew or had reason to know that he was in the process of filing, or already had filed for a RO.

Granted and served are two very different things. They could have granted the RO on 6/26 but it was not served until 6/28. How could anyone violate an RO they knew nothing about until it was served?

 

[Snowball58]

Why are we all assuming that TH didn't know anything about the RO until it was served? I know she gave reporters the thumbs-up sign, but that seemed so artificial to me. Are we to believe that she just thought these were rumors? That's a bit naive. With the 911 calls and the info that came out about the MFH plot, I don't buy it that she didn't know what was happening until she got served.

Buh-loney.

 

[wvjules]

Why are we all assuming that TH didn't know anything about the RO until it was served? I know she gave reporters the thumbs-up sign, but that seemed so artificial to me. Are we to believe that she just thought these were rumors? That's a bit naive. With the 911 calls and the info that came out about the MFH plot, I don't buy it that she didn't know what was happening until she got served.

Buh-loney.

Ok so lets go with this. Maybe she did know about it (BTW, were there rumors of an RO prior to them being served?) but she wasn't served so its still not violating an order or kidnapping. I do not believe she knew about it prior to being served. I think she was blindsided.

 

[Donjeta]

Ok so lets go with this. Maybe she did know about it (BTW, were there rumors of an RO prior to them being served?) but she wasn't served so its still not violating an order or kidnapping. I do not believe she knew about it prior to being served. I think she was blindsided.

How could she be blindsided? IIRC I read that she was being questioned about the murder for hire plot while Kaine left the home with the baby on Saturday. You find out that you are being suspected of trying to get your spouse killed, and when you get home your spouse is gone with your baby and doesn't come back for the next two nights until the next court day. How does a person of reasonable intelligence not figure out what's going on?

 

[Snowball58]

Ok so lets go with this. Maybe she did know about it (BTW, were there rumors of an RO prior to them being served?) but she wasn't served so its still not violating an order or kidnapping. I do not believe she knew about it prior to being served. I think she was blindsided.

I believe the rumors were of Kaine moving out. She gave the thumbs-up when asked about that, IIRC. Then later that evening she was served with the RO.

Could he have moved out, but the restraining order was granted after she showed up at the gym? Maybe that was the catalyst? Oh, but I think the article states that the RO was granted on the 26th and served on the 28th. So strike that.

I just can't believe that she was clueless amid all of the things happening in the day or two leading up to the RO being served. She had to know something was up.

 

[Baldwin]

If terry had all this bizarre behavior that kaine knew about, why didnt he do something earlier. not that im blaming him for anything that transpired, but if you think the person that sleeps next to you is up to something, wouldnt you take action. maybe im missing something here

 

[Emma Peel]

Why are we all assuming that TH didn't know anything about the RO until it was served? I know she gave reporters the thumbs-up sign, but that seemed so artificial to me. Are we to believe that she just thought these were rumors? That's a bit naive. With the 911 calls and the info that came out about the MFH plot, I don't buy it that she didn't know what was happening until she got served.

Buh-loney.

I buy it. Narcissists are sooooo good at fooling everyone all the time ... they write their life scripts the way they wish to interpret things ... they rewrite/reinvent (lie) as needed ... that they believe their own lies.

IMO, One time-tested classic way to get away from a Narcissist is to simply go along - let them go on living in their fantasy world - while you make a quiet plan and then, with no notice - bolt! Run like crazy in the opposite direction. Hopefully you're somewhere far away and safe by the time they figure out what happened.

You can't tell them you're leaving. They won't let you.

Had she an inkling Kaine was taking that baby, she'd have left first, with the baby. IMO :cow:

 

[Snowball58]

Maybe he was taking action, in the way normal people do who plan to seek divorce - we don't know what was happening behind closed doors. But if TH was involved in Kyron's disappearance, there must have been a catalyst that pushed her over the edge. I'm just speculating, but perhaps she discovered that Kaine was planning to leave her. That might be enough for a person who is already on the edge of breakdown or, as some have speculated, PPP or NPD.

Maybe he was even in a state of denial about her behavior. After all, it must have been pretty gradual, he may have written some of it off as PPD, and maybe he wanted to try to keep his family together and thought things would get better.

We don't know.

 

[Calliope]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/search-ky...ting-daughter-affair/story?id=11149983&page=1 The alleged abduction attempt was AFTER the restraining order was served:

According to court documents filed Monday by Kaine Horman in an attempt to have his wife held in contempt for violating the restraining order, Terri Horman tried to "abduct" her 20-month-old daughter from a gym day care June 28, two days after the emergency restraining order was granted, following a revelation from police that she tried to hire the family's landscaper to kill her husband.

So it doesn't seem that her awareness of the RO made any difference. I suspect that at the time of her efforts to "attempt to find out" where Kaine and Baby K were just before the RO was served, she already knew or had reason to know that he was in the process of filing, or already had filed for a RO.

ABC is wrong. Kaine's petition for the RO wasn't even filed until 4:39pm on the 28th and that is also the date he signed the petition. The RO was granted that same date and filed at the same time.

[ame="http://www.scribd.com/doc/34071571/Kaine-Horman-s-restraining-order-request"]Kaine Horman's restraining order request[/ame]

The affidavit by his attorney states this alleged "abduction" attempt occurred prior to Terry being served. IIRC, Terri was served ~ 6 pm on the 28th.

 

[Snowball58]

Emma, true about NPD types. Is it possible that she did have an idea on or about the 28th that Kain was leaving and that's why she showed up at the gym? That's the point I'm trying to make. I think she knew something was brewing and that Kaine was leaving, so she tracked them to the gym to try and snatch baby K. Just as you wrote. It was before she was served with the RO, but I think she knew it was coming and wasn't going to let it happen.

 

[Snowball58]

So maybe the reason he went ahead with the RO was because TH showed up at the gym that day, the 28th, to try and get the baby???!!