The accusation that TH tried to abduct the baby

[Donjeta]

Just to be clear, the court is not being asked to say she violated the order by going to the gym and asking about the child. The contempt issue is about revealing the sealed information, the address, showing the document to an outsider.

 

[Snowball58]

Yet somehow the gym staff got the strong impression that she was there to take Baby K in a clandestine manner, otherwise they wouldn't have called police. Were the gym employees briefed on what to do if she showed up? Perhaps there's a lot more that took place the day Kaine moved out, and we're just not privy to it.

In light of everything going on at the time, it's beyond belief (to me, IMO only) that she innocently thought, "Hmmm, Kainey-poo isn't returning my calls. How odd. Maybe he's at the gym. I'll just swing by there and take Baby K out for an ice cream and some mama time. Kaine won't mind. Oh wait, he's NOT here? Ok, can you call me next time he's at the gym so that I can come by again to take Baby K without his knowledge? It's just for ice cream, I swear...I know I could just wait till they get home, but darn it, he's been gone for 2 days and I just plum forgot where he went!"

She knew darn well that she was about to lose her parental rights and was trying to take the baby, plain and simple.

 

[Snowball58]

Just to be clear, the court is not being asked to say she violated the order by going to the gym and asking about the child. The contempt issue is about revealing the sealed information, the address.

Right, the violation of the order is her showing the sealed RO to her sexty man-friend. What I'm personally trying to get at is her intentions and state of mind when she showed up at the gym asking for Baby K on the 28th. I agree that she didn't break the law by doing so, just speculating a timeline.

 

[Calliope]

I think she knew that the divorce filing and custody issues were imminent (after all, there was the custody related 911 call just 2 days prior) and was prepared to take Baby K that day (Monday) but Baby K wasn't there. So she wanted info on when Kaine would next be at the gym so that she could return to try again.

Without having been served the RO she may not have been breaking the law, but I feel strongly that she was going to take the baby because she knew she was about to lose custody over the MFH plot.

I completely believe she knew she was about to lose her parental rights and planned to abduct Baby K preemptively.

Whose interpretation was it that she planned to take the baby? Do we know exactly what she said to the clerk? All I've heard is that she wanted to be notified when Kaine arrived at the gym. That's quite a stretch to go from that to looking to abduct baby K.

 

[Calliope]

I totally agree. Absent the restraining order she has every right to walk into that daycare and take her daughter. Taking her daughter from the gym day care before the issuance of the RO would not have been a violation of any law. If anything, it was KH who arguably violated the custodial interference laws by taking the baby away from TH for several days before the RO was issued.

Can't an emergency RO be issued on weekends and during off-hours and be granted by a magistrate (kinda like how a TDO can be obtained) ? IOW, did he necessarily have to wait until Monday afternoon to file this petition? Given the immediacy of the mandatory remedy, I don't understand why someone in danger should be forced to wait for court to open.

 

[Snowball58]

Whose interpretation was it that she planned to take the baby? Do we know exactly what she said to the clerk? All I've heard is that she wanted to be notified when Kaine arrived at the gym. That's quite a stretch to go from that to looking to abduct baby K.

I believe it's the interpretation of the gym staff, using the word "abduct" - granted we don't know for sure, but given that this account was quoted in the court documents, I feel comfortable that something about TH's demeanor and/or choice of words gave the clear impression that she was there to abduct the baby. TH is no longer receiving the benefit of the doubt from me. Based on everything that has happened thus far, if the gym staff felt she was there to abduct the baby and were worried enough to call the police, it's good enough for me. If, when all of the truth comes out, it turns out TH was innocent and misunderstood, I'll be happy to hear it. But for now, the only two important things are finding Kyron and protecting Baby K.

 

[Donjeta]

More precisely, she wanted to be notified when Kaine arrived with baby K.

 

[Snowball58]

Good point, Donjeta! If she was trying to track down Kaine so that they could talk, or whatever, she would have asked them to give her a call when Kaine next showed up at the gym. But she specifically cared to know about Baby K.

 

[Calliope]

More precisely, she wanted to be notified when Kaine arrived with baby K.

And that was interpreted to mean she was looking to abduct the baby?

A bit of a stretch, and I'm rather surprised that Kaine's attorney included that in her affidavit. Would that be considered hearsay? Not sure, since she claims it came from LE, but either way it was simply inflammatory IMO.

 

[Snowball58]

And that was interpreted to mean she was looking to abduct the baby?

A bit of a stretch, and I'm rather surprised that Kaine's attorney included that in her affidavit. Would that be considered hearsay? Not sure, since she claims it came from LE, but either way it was simply inflammatory IMO.

Frankly, we don't know what TH exactly said to the gym employee. Those details may not be contained in the court docs, but perhaps the police report goes into far more detail - who knows?

What if she showed up all erratic and agitated and said a bunch of other stuff that made it obvious she wanted to take the baby without Kaine knowing about it? The gym member had nothing to gain by blowing this out of proportion - he/she had the interaction with TH and was disturbed enough to report it to the manager, who then reported it to LE. LE took it seriously enough to alert Kaine and Kaine's attorney took it seriously enough to include it in the contempt filing.

I just can't believe that TH acted completely innocently and all of these other individuals blew it all up out of proportion. More than likely we are only hearing a very high level view of what happened at the gym that day.

 

[Donjeta]

And that was interpreted to mean she was looking to abduct the baby?

A bit of a stretch, and I'm rather surprised that Kaine's attorney included that in her affidavit. Would that be considered hearsay? Not sure, since she claims it came from LE, but either way it was simply inflammatory IMO.

If we had been there to hear the conversation we might feel more certain about what the intention was. It may be that "please notify me the next time Kaine and baby come here" wasn't the whole conversation and there were clues.

Maybe she should have filed a RO petition of her own if she felt that the baby was abducted from her illegally by Kaine.

I don't think Kaine can win this one. He's blamed because he didn't see the signs and leave long ago to protect his children and when he finally left after hearing about an attempt to take his life he is a child abductor.

 

[Calliope]

Good point, Donjeta! If she was trying to track down Kaine so that they could talk, or whatever, she would have asked them to give her a call when Kaine next showed up at the gym. But she specifically cared to know about Baby K.

Why wouldn't she? Her husband took her baby away, no doubt wasn't answering her calls and she had no idea where he'd taken her. I know first-hand what it feels like to have your husband steal your baby away. It's beyond terrifying.

So I'm sorry, I'll have to agree to disagree with all who seem to think she was wrong in going to the gym, looking for Kaine and the baby; since there was no RO in effect, I don't blame Terri one bit for doing all she could to track down her child. I don't blame her if she WAS planning on taking baby K back from Kaine. Once she was served with the RO, that's a different matter altogether. But up to that point?

 

[Calliope]

If we had been there to hear the conversation we might feel more certain about what the intention was. It may be that "please notify me the next time Kaine and baby come here" wasn't the whole conversation and there were clues.

Maybe she should have filed a RO petition of her own if she felt that the baby was abducted from her illegally by Kaine.

I don't think Kaine can win this one. He's blamed because he didn't see the signs and leave long ago to protect his children and when he finally left after hearing about an attempt to take his life he is a child abductor.

Kaine had every right to take the baby away and file for an RO against Terri. IMO, he should have filed not only for himself but on behalf of the baby too since we now know she was with Terri that morning, and he claims to have probable cause to believe Terri was involved in Kyron's disappearance.

That said, until the point where Terri was served with the RO prohibiting her any contact with the baby, I don't fault her at all for doing all she could to locate the child and try to get her back.

 

[Tiki]

TH will appear in court next Tuesday.
Lawyers spoke to media outside courthouse

Bombarded with reporters’ questions about those cases and Terri Horman’s possible role in Kyron’s disappearance June 4, Houze repeatedly declined to comment. Houze did say he will represent Terri Horman in family court as well as in the investigation into what happened to Kyron.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07...ulton-horman-to-appear-in-court-next-tuesday/

I don't know how to start a thread, so maybe someone here will if you wan to discuss

 

[Calliope]

Frankly, we don't know what TH exactly said to the gym employee. Those details may not be contained in the court docs, but perhaps the police report goes into far more detail - who knows?

What if she showed up all erratic and agitated and said a bunch of other stuff that made it obvious she wanted to take the baby without Kaine knowing about it? The gym member had nothing to gain by blowing this out of proportion - he/she had the interaction with TH and was disturbed enough to report it to the manager, who then reported it to LE. LE took it seriously enough to alert Kaine and Kaine's attorney took it seriously enough to include it in the contempt filing.

I just can't believe that TH acted completely innocently and all of these other individuals blew it all up out of proportion. More than likely we are only hearing a very high level view of what happened at the gym that day.

I'm sure she WAS agitated and upset. Her baby was gone and she couldn't find her. But unless Terri herself told the clerk she was 'looking to abduct' baby K, I think it was wrong of them to insert their own interpretation and wrong for the attorney to include it in her affidavit---especially since it occurred prior to the order.

Just had a thought tho' (not sure if anyone else has brought this up)...

Imagine for a moment that Terri IS innocent (or rather, she believes herself to be innocent) in Kyron's disappearance. I know, I know... but try.

The stepson she raised as her own has gone missing without a trace. Now her husband has taken her baby away, and they are gone without a trace. I think she'd be more than a little agitated.

Of course, no one believes she's innocent, so the point of that little exercise is moot, except to perhaps make us think about how frantic she may have been when she appeared at the gym.

 

[Donjeta]

Why wouldn't she? Her husband took her baby away, no doubt wasn't answering her calls and she had no idea where he'd taken her. I know first-hand what it feels like to have your husband steal your baby away. It's beyond terrifying.

So I'm sorry, I'll have to agree to disagree with all who seem to think she was wrong in going to the gym, looking for Kaine and the baby; since there was no RO in effect, I don't blame Terri one bit for doing all she could to track down her child. I don't blame her if she WAS planning on taking baby K back from Kaine. Once she was served with the RO, that's a different matter altogether. But up to that point?

I agree that it was legal for her to ask questions about her baby. It was legal for her to be with her baby.

It's just a bit hard to understand why poor Terri did nothing wrong by attempting to be with her baby because she has all the rights to be with her since there was no RO against her at that time and why she had her baby abducted from her in a cruel and terrifying manner (mind you, she seems to expect that the baby is alive and safe with her father, not gone like Kyron was)

But Kaine had no RO against him either to prevent him from being with his baby and somehow he is a terrifying child abductor for trying to be with his baby that he had all the rights to be with.

He did the right thing, imo, if he really had a reason to believe that Terri might be a danger to him or to the children. And if she is a danger to her child she shouldn't be near her, legal or not, unless supervised. :cow:

If it is a misunderstanding and she is just a mother missing her child then I hope the RO is lifted and they arrive at a custody agreement soon.

 

[wondering1]

TH will appear in court next Tuesday.
Lawyers spoke to media outside courthouse

Bombarded with reporters’ questions about those cases and Terri Horman’s possible role in Kyron’s disappearance June 4, Houze repeatedly declined to comment. Houze did say he will represent Terri Horman in family court as well as in the investigation into what happened to Kyron.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07...ulton-horman-to-appear-in-court-next-tuesday/

I don't know how to start a thread, so maybe someone here will if you wan to discuss

Thanks for the info...that should be a VERY interesting day

 

[tiredblondy]

Whose interpretation was it that she planned to take the baby? Do we know exactly what she said to the clerk? All I've heard is that she wanted to be notified when Kaine arrived at the gym. That's quite a stretch to go from that to looking to abduct baby K.

When I read the pdf docs I remember she asked to be notified when the baby was there.

 

[Calliope]

TH will appear in court next Tuesday.
Lawyers spoke to media outside courthouse

Bombarded with reporters’ questions about those cases and Terri Horman’s possible role in Kyron’s disappearance June 4, Houze repeatedly declined to comment. Houze did say he will represent Terri Horman in family court as well as in the investigation into what happened to Kyron.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07...ulton-horman-to-appear-in-court-next-tuesday/

I don't know how to start a thread, so maybe someone here will if you wan to discuss

Interesting. I bet he read her the riot act and set down some strict ground rules.

It will also be interesting to see how he dances around Kyron's disappearance as he defends her on the contempt charge.

 

[SacreBleu]

Forgive me if this has been answered, but I am not able to read the entire thread right now. Do we know what time of day Terri made this visit to the gym? Could it possibly have been after she was served? I mean, my gym is open until 11 pm.

ETA: KH's gym is open until 8 pm on weekdays.