The Balcony Adjoining JBRs Bedroom

[BBB167893]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0008/30/lkl.00.html

WOOD: Let me finish. During the interviews, John and Patsy Ramsey did, in fact, answer every question, even the questions that I thought were basically a waste of time about whether or not they had adequate protection for their son Burke, then 10 years old, when he returned to school in Boulder in 1997.

They did not answer a handful of questions about the forensic tests, but I offered, if they would simply show me the results so that we could verify that they were telling us accurate that we would answer those.

But what Mr. Kane does not know is that when he had already left, the other members of the interrogation squad were there, and we didn't have any problems with those six individuals. My clients gave to Chief Beckner, the Boulder Police Department, their direct private telephone numbers, and they told Chief Beckner: We want to have a dialogue with you. We want to work with you. If you think there is something that we can give you, in terms of additional information, pick up the phone and call us, don't even call our lawyer, call us directly. That is cooperation.




Unbelievable.

Unbelievable not only describes their idea of cooperation--which only someone like Woody could say with a straight face--but that he could say it after he and his clients tried to negotiate Kane out of the meetings, i.e., either he doesn't come or this meeting doesn't happen.

 

[MurriFlower]

CIVIL COURT CIVIL COURT CIVIL COURT.

You have asked and answered yourself.

From my understanding the CIVIL COURT judge ruled the telephone records inadmissible as they had violated privacy rights the R's and every person who pays for phone service has.

Unless the evidence came from the R's directly such as a thrown out phone bill would be (trash is public domain) or if the R's handed it over themselves to the court. It is a violation of privacy rights. He, the judge , may have asked the R"s if they had released the info and was told and I never will give a release of my personal records to anyone.


In a CRIMINAL COURT the evidence is gained by getting a warrant to go to the phone company leaving the R's out of the loop of permission. Any judge would gladly grant such a warrant for the records of any person having a murder victim in their home. LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION. Bad pun on the Realtors but because the house was where she was found, phone records would be one of the first things on an investigators list. When arriving at the scene and reading the kidnapping note I'm sure phone taps and contact with phone provider is established pronto. Even if just to stage an investigation since FBI said to look for body and they suspected parents. They still set up some kind of call trap to get the number "if" a intruder called.

In a CRIMINAL COURT case has a different criteria. Evidence submitted it IS FROM A VERIFIABLE SOURCE. Since it comes directly from the provider the R's can't have tampered with it. Since it came by way of warrant privacy rights are protected.


The two things did wrong in civil court do not have a bearing on a criminal court. Sources are different. In a criminal case a person or person being prosecuted is not facing another person or a company the are facing the STATE. In a civil court the two complainants represent the two sides. The People's Court is a TV show on civil matters not criminal ones.

Thanks Cathy

It is frequently 'said' on this forum that the DA blocked the BPD from obtaining a warrant for the phone records. I wonder how likely this is to be true and how (based on what you have said above) a DA could justify not obtaining this information. Given that the BPD had already put phone taps on the morning of the 26th, I would have thought they wouldn't have needed to obtain a warrant anyway, as they already had the R's permission to monitor their calls.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Then why did a judge seal the phone records from LE in the criminal investigation? And why did LE not fight that order?

Not only that, but it wasn't LE or an agent of LE that had obtained them illegally.

In criminal court, my understanding they would be considered inevitable discovery, eventually they would have gotten around to issuing warrants and obtaining them legally.

 

[MurriFlower]

Not only that, but it wasn't LE or an agent of LE that had obtained them illegally.

In criminal court, my understanding they would be considered inevitable discovery, eventually they would have gotten around to issuing warrants and obtaining them legally.

So if the DA didn't want to seek a warrant would you naturally assume there was no reason to believe these would be relevant to the investigation?

 

[BBB167893]

Given that the BPD had already put phone taps on the morning of the 26th, I would have thought they wouldn't have needed to obtain a warrant anyway, as they already had the R's permission to monitor their calls.

Apples and handgrenades, MF. They weren't suspects then.

So if the DA didn't want to seek a warrant would you naturally assume there was no reason to believe these would be relevant to the investigation?

If it was the NY or LA DA, I might.

 

[CathyR]

Thanks Cathy

It is frequently 'said' on this forum that the DA blocked the BPD from obtaining a warrant for the phone records. I wonder how likely this is to be true and how (based on what you have said above) a DA could justify not obtaining this information. Given that the BPD had already put phone taps on the morning of the 26th, I would have thought they wouldn't have needed to obtain a warrant anyway, as they already had the R's permission to monitor their calls.

I don't know if the DA did block a warrant but the past history of calls would not be included in call monitoring. Only calls made after the tap or trap is set would be monitored.

It seems the call history would be relevant to the investigation.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I don't know if the DA did block a warrant but the past history of calls would not be included in call monitoring. Only calls made after the tap or trap is set would be monitored.

It seems the call history would be relevant to the investigation.

It would have been very relevant and in any other town in the country it would have been one of the first warrants issued. Especially since the Ramseys called all their friends over. We only have their word that they called the friends after they made the 911 call. They could very well have called them at one or two am, who knows? We don't and never will thanks to the Boulder DA's office.

 

[CathyR]

Then why did a judge seal the phone records from LE in the criminal investigation? And why did LE not fight that order?

I think the civil judge might have sealed the records submitted to his/her court but it can't be said why unless the judge elaborates.

The LE didn't need to fight a civil court judge as the criminal court judge issuing a warrant would trump the order.

We don't know if the LE already had copies when the order was given or if they obtained them later. They could not be released by them to public unless a trial is over and the records were submitted into evidence. The records would then be edited to protect any one other than the defendant and the parts or calls used against them in court. They are still required to protect the privacy of those calling and making calls from that number that are irrelevant to the trial.

 

[CathyR]

It would have been very relevant and in any other town in the country it would have been one of the first warrants issued. Especially since the Ramseys called all their friends over. We only have their word that they called the friends after they made the 911 call. They could very well have called them at one or two am, who knows? We don't and never will thanks to the Boulder DA's office.

The friends who received those calls would know what time they came in.

The friends can't all be in on the cover up so there is a source for setting a time line for the calls.

Phone records because of the privacy rules would be something the police would hold back from the public. They are not required to tell anyone if they have them or not.

 

[MurriFlower]

I think the civil judge might have sealed the records submitted to his/her court but it can't be said why unless the judge elaborates.

The LE didn't need to fight a civil court judge as the criminal court judge issuing a warrant would trump the order.

We don't know if the LE already had copies when the order was given or if they obtained them later. They could not be released by them to public unless a trial is over and the records were submitted into evidence. The records would then be edited to protect any one other than the defendant and the parts or calls used against them in court. They are still required to protect the privacy of those calling and making calls from that number that are irrelevant to the trial.

The records would then be edited to protect any one other than the defendant and the parts or calls used against them in court. They are still required to protect the privacy of those calling and making calls from that number that are irrelevant to the tria

Yes very relevant too. Judging by what is said on this forum, it wouldn't have mattered who they called/had called them, there would be those who would weave those people into their conspiracy theory. :crazy:

 

[DeeDee249]

The records would then be edited to protect any one other than the defendant and the parts or calls used against them in court. They are still required to protect the privacy of those calling and making calls from that number that are irrelevant to the tria

Yes very relevant too. Judging by what is said on this forum, it wouldn't have mattered who they called/had called them, there would be those who would weave those people into their conspiracy theory. :crazy:

Or not. :crazy:

 

[joeskidbeck]

The records would then be edited to protect any one other than the defendant and the parts or calls used against them in court. They are still required to protect the privacy of those calling and making calls from that number that are irrelevant to the tria

Yes very relevant too. Judging by what is said on this forum, it wouldn't have mattered who they called/had called them, there would be those who would weave those people into their conspiracy theory. :crazy:

Honestly, any calls they made after 10 pm that night would be open to investigation. After all, they were all in bed asleep, right? They sure didn't mention receiving any calls after they got home (or making any either), so it's probably a pretty safe bet that if calls were made from the Ramsey's home or cell phone, they were about whatever was happening with JonBenet. BTW, that's not a conspiracy theory, that's a fact.

 

[DeeDee249]

I can't imagine ANY good reason for them to have made or received a call from, let's say, their lawyer(s) or the Governor's Office or MB or even their friends between the hours of 1 am and 6 am. I mean, a call to or from a lawyer, even one who is a friend, at 3 am would be suspect in anyone's theory.

 

[MurriFlower]

Honestly, any calls they made after 10 pm that night would be open to investigation. After all, they were all in bed asleep, right? They sure didn't mention receiving any calls after they got home (or making any either), so it's probably a pretty safe bet that if calls were made from the Ramsey's home or cell phone, they were about whatever was happening with JonBenet. BTW, that's not a conspiracy theory, that's a fact.

Ah yes, very true. Any calls made from 10pm on the 25th to 6am on the 26th would be very relevant to the murder, regardless of whether you are RDI or IDI.

I still believe that there is a possibility that the RN was dictated to PR over the phone by one of the IDIs, (because that is how it sounds). That would have sent the Rs into overdrive trying to find MR in another city ("your daughter" -- not named) when of course all along it was JBR who was the target, and in their very home. This opens up possibilites that embraces some of the reasons people believe RDI (handwriting, wearing last nights clothing, confused stories) and also explains the reason the RN did not do what it said (kidnap/murder, behead/strangle, deny remains/leave body downstairs), because it was a phoney, only ever designed to distract them from JBR, and was never a serious kidnap ransom note.

So I agree, the phone records between 10pm and 6am are critical.

My comment about calls made or received being woven into the RDI conspiracy theory, was referring only to calls after 6am.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Ah yes, very true. Any calls made from 10pm on the 25th to 6am on the 26th would be very relevant to the murder, regardless of whether you are RDI or IDI.

I still believe that there is a possibility that the RN was dictated to PR over the phone by one of the IDIs, (because that is how it sounds). That would have sent the Rs into overdrive trying to find MR in another city ("your daughter" -- not named) when of course all along it was JBR who was the target, and in their very home. This opens up possibilites that embraces some of the reasons people believe RDI (handwriting, wearing last nights clothing, confused stories) and also explains the reason the RN did not do what it said (kidnap/murder, behead/strangle, deny remains/leave body downstairs), because it was a phoney, only ever designed to distract them from JBR, and was never a serious kidnap ransom note.

So I agree, the phone records between 10pm and 6am are critical.

My comment about calls made or received being woven into the RDI conspiracy theory, was referring only to calls after 6am.

But Murri if you got that call would you not have woken John and had him round up both kids and put them where they could be watched? Or are you saying that by this time the murder had already occured and the note was just, what, a cruel joke? Because I don't understand why they would have needed to have been distracted from JonBenet if she were already dead. Nothing would have changed in the scheme of things, they still would not have found her body until they did. I know that if I had received a call like that, number one is to get the children in my home together and number two would be to call or locate the ones that did not live at home to verify their safety and warn them of the danger. I just can't believe that note was transcribed.

ETA: Also, had that been the case, there would have been no reason for Patsy to lie about the whole thing. Yes, I wrote the note from a phone call. Check the records, you'll see that I'm innocent and maybe the call will lead to the real perp.

 

[MurriFlower]

But Murri if you got that call would you not have woken John and had him round up both kids and put them where they could be watched? Or are you saying that by this time the murder had already occured and the note was just, what, a cruel joke? Because I don't understand why they would have needed to have been distracted from JonBenet if she were already dead. Nothing would have changed in the scheme of things, they still would not have found her body until they did. I know that if I had received a call like that, number one is to get the children in my home together and number two would be to call or locate the ones that did not live at home to verify their safety and warn them of the danger. I just can't believe that note was transcribed.

ETA: Also, had that been the case, there would have been no reason for Patsy to lie about the whole thing. Yes, I wrote the note from a phone call. Check the records, you'll see that I'm innocent and maybe the call will lead to the real perp.

Beck, if I had put my children to bed in my home and then received a call from someone that said-- just write this down!! Mr Ramsey, Listen Carefully. We are a group of individuals........etc, etc, I think I would have freeked out, thinking that it was JR's older daughter (living in another State) who had been kidnapped. Excuse me if I believe that my children were safe in their beds in their own home where we were, while my step- daughter was.... who knows where?

Why would the Rs not have thought their own children were in danger? Well, the threat was non-specific, it seemed remote, even silly, but still scarey, not to be ignored. It was something happening 'elsewhere'.

Imagine if you can, someone phoning you at midnight and saying (this is not to distress you, just as an example), your husband/parent/child has been badly injured in an accident, you need to come to the hospital at once. The kids are asleep and there is no reason to believe they won't stay asleep. You rush to the hospital to find your loved one is not there -- you search all the hospitals in town and then eventually return home to find one of your kids missing!!! My god the guilt!

Why didn't they tell the BPD about the 'ruse'? Well, I think there are things we don't know about why they behaved as they did and it has to do with who/why they thought it was to do with the older daughter, and then when they realised they had been tricked, it was just too painful, and too late to change things. This IDI was not the average joe just going about his random pedophile murders, this was personal. If JR didn't know who or why, I'm sure he had a pretty good idea.